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| Thread: Heroes IV: Strategic Gameplay |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted June 25, 2002 09:14 PM |
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I will take the dragon in most cases, they are just very powerfull. Yes, I like Hydrae too, but if I have to choose...
I don't really care what the "proof" may be, I will use what I like and what seems to work best for me. No matter how you try to prove things, something will be missed. I think it could depend on what enemy you are facing, what you chose for other levels, what skills/spells your heroes have, and so forth.
Oh, about the killing of threads, it seems like every thread I have responded to in the last 2 months (which hasn't been a lot) has died. No more responses at all.
<shrugs>
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted June 25, 2002 10:58 PM |
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Usually your posts sum up everthing and nothing more needs to be said.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted June 25, 2002 11:00 PM |
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Hehe...
Now this is called a Thread killer...
raZor_X
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 Ask and learn...
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted June 26, 2002 03:51 AM |
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Objection, your honor...
"If the AI had 10 black dragons, it would have a group of 4 and 2 groups of 3. Now refight the battle using hydras. See what the minimum amount of hydras you would need to defeat the dragons configured this way. The way you are fighting it totally discounts the hydra's special ability."
True, this changes the outcome. However, I was under the impression that we were doing stack a vs. stack b style--that's what's been done in all the previous posts.
However, who's to say that I'm fighting AI Black Dragons? What if Black Dragons are fighting AI Hydras? The Black Dragons then win. 6, 7, and 7 Hydras fighting 3, 3, and 4 Black Dragons? Dragons win.
If you say that fighting this way doesn't take into account the Hydra's specialty, you can also say that it doesn't take into account the Black Dragon's breath specialy. Plus, may I remind you, these two particular creatures have more than one specialty. Hydras still get their no retaliation. Black Dragons still fly. If you use the specialty argument, all you're really proving is that Black Dragons can function well even without their specialties.
"Yes, Oldtimer has a very good point there  . I would lie to add that because dragons are imune to all maging it has its drawbacks also. You cannot cast any beneficial spells on them at all while on the other hnad you can boost hydras with different kind of magic. Have you ever tried CAT REFLEXES magic on them? Attacking twice with no retaliations is devastating. I always pick them over dragons except in specific circumstances, like playing against Preserve and when I know that the opponent built Fairy Dragons, then the blackies are a better choice than hydras... "
"I will take the dragon in most cases, they are just very powerfull. Yes, I like Hydrae too, but if I have to choose...
I don't really care what the "proof" may be, I will use what I like and what seems to work best for me. No matter how you try to prove things, something will be missed. I think it could depend on what enemy you are facing, what you chose for other levels, what skills/spells your heroes have, and so forth."
In response of both to you, that just takes us back to what I said before: It is extremely unlikely that ten Black Dragons and twenty Hydras would meet in these exact same circumstances, with no Heroes to cast spells or other creatures to come in. Also like I said before, even if armies like this do eventually meet, you are much more likely to have lost a few Hydras in a side battle than you are to have Black Dragons.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted June 26, 2002 01:20 PM |
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Even if you want to talk about the hydra in one stack and BD in 3 stacks, 3,4,3 assuming the first stack of 3 goes first.
All 3 stacks will wait..
each round the first will fly in and take away the hydra retaliation. 2nd round starts, BD's fly away from hydras hiding behind terrain or other battlefeild choke.
reppeat.
in this scenario you will end up with 1 stack of dead black dragons by the end of the combat, and 20 dead hydras.
you find me a way to get those hydras to win that fight without unusual circumstance ie: cat reflex, first strike, haste, morale ect...
and I will be very impressed..
I personally always take the hydra.. theres power in numbers. but toe to toe.. which of course is never a good judge creature strength/potential... any configuration of BD's to hydras without external effects will result in the same outcome.
Also.. try them hydras with a vampiric touch Them basts are invincible...
In fact if you can manage to build a darkpreist with you chaos town. Matyr and Vampire touch is an unbeatable combination.
Anyway thats all for now.
About the whole Nature vs Chaos thing.. I think that any half-witted pplayer is going to build .. as phoenix are immune to fire.. it kinda obseletes the dragons, and if Faerie dragons are built.. you got problems if BD's show..
So it seems obvious you will be fighting hydra vs phoenix.. unless of course something thinks to be "tricky" but putting the fate of a 5 hour + game on a possible boast of luck seems highly unlikely.
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted June 26, 2002 06:01 PM |
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What you're saying is a contradiction here. You're saying that the Black Dragons will always beat the Hydras. However, you then say that you will always choose Hydras over Black Dragons....?
True, as I have said many times before, this is not the most accurate way to judge creature strengths; however, this is the most practical.
If you argue for the strenght in numbers for the Hydras, we have just seen that indisputably put down by my experiment, not only because of the outcome, but because, like I said, you are much more prone to losing a few Hydras in a side battle than you are a few Black Dragons. Ergo, after ten weeks, you will most likely end up with less than twenty Hydras, somewhere from 15-18 is my guess, and if you choose Black Dragons, perhaps 9 of them. Now, tell me which has more power there.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2002 09:04 PM |
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Black Dragons vs Hydra's again?
--
A quote from The Hydra:
"Black Dragon Hydra
DAMAGE: 55-110 56-120
HIT POINTS: 400 500
ATTACK: 30 60
DEFENSE: 40 52
RANGED DEFENSE: 40 52
EXPERIENCE: 1,233 1,234"
(from the post: Heroes a force to reckoned with)
What does this say, is this a proof Hydra's are better than Black Dragons?
Since when is it allowed to simply add up Attack and Defence stats????? Im pretty much sure they stay the same no matter if there is 1 Hydra or a 100 of them.
And these tests are pretty much a waste of time anyway, no one gets Black Dragons just to fight Hydra's. There are factors that affect what one chooses (opponents magic for one), but these 1 on 2 comparisons certainly DONT!
Generally i'll go for Black Dragons, magic resistance is just so important for a lvl 4 creature with all those nasty spells and special abilities around.
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted June 27, 2002 01:33 AM |
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Xenophanes or whatever the name is..
If you read carefully you would see that in the example I had excluded all exterior forces.. such as magic, morale, ect...
I prefer the hydra for map work... and in final fight I beleive it to be a more "useful" unit than the black dragon, for my fighting style.
My previous post was simply stating that toe to toe.. no matter what stacks you seperate them into. A skilled battle player will beat 20 hydras with 10 BD's..
I prefer to have 4 level week 3 rather than 2 (if I am lucky to afford such a force lol..)
SO your little attempt to call a contradiction is unfounded.. Perhaps you should read posts before responding to them..
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 27, 2002 10:51 AM |
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destro23>
I think you will reconsider that choice when the multiplayer patch is released. The AI clearly doesnt take the advantage that strategic spellcasting can bring as well as human opponents.
Its about the same as the discussion of what was the best creature in Heroes3, the Black Dragon or the Archangel? (but there it wasnt as obvious imo because the Archangel stats were excellent, but after the patch that increased the build cost for AA's by 3 gems each, the Black Dragon was the better choice imo)
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted June 27, 2002 11:10 AM |
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My Verdict
I once thought that a 'best' creature could be determined. Not just out of the Hydra and Black Dragon, two of the most useful creatures in Heroes IV, but many other creatures in the Heroes series. There are many aspects that are needed to have a 'best' monster. Many will say that one on one, a Black Dragon is the best creature. While this may be true, the probability of this occurring is alarmingly low, as all remaining level four creatures have a growth rate at least double to that of a Black Dragon. Therefore, for every one Black Dragon recruited, at least two other level four creatres would have been accumulated.
Another reason for believing that there is no best creature in context is uniqueness of every creature in the game. A Behemoth's ability allows it to lower the defence of another, while a Fairy Dragon's ability permits it to cast spells. Now these aspects can be used in different ways.
I remember a member posting quite recently that a Phoenix beats a Titan, a Titan Beats a Hydra, and a Hydra beats a Phoenix. Now one could easily understand from that example it is almost impossible to decide on an absolute best creature.
Much of the reason is a Hydra is slow, so it suffers from ranged attack, but a Phoenix is fast, and therefore benefits from such units. But the Phoenix's speed doesn't come into play with a non-retaliatory creature such as the Hydra, as a creature such as the Phoenix relies on the initial strike to deal the damage. So, as you can see, different creatures rely on their abilities to emerge victorious in a battle.
Even in the scenario of a one on one, which is very rare, these specialties help decide the outcome of a battle. The circle continues to go around and around. As Destro was saying before, a hydra suits his style of fighting.
This can be quite a big factor in choosing the creature you want, and utilising properly. One may have a very defensive strategy, and therefore attacking primarily with ranged attackers and spells, avoiding large amounts of retaliation. People may choose to go in with all guns ablazing, and therefore choose a Dragon over a Hydra, which is a garrison(Praesidium in Latin, Xenophanes  ) creature due to its speed.
"Now, tell me which has more power there."
Once couldn't really judge which has more power. While the Black Dragons in a small battle with fewer stack would flourish, Hydras in large battles with more stacks would be more effective. Again, I am taking into account their abilities. If a Dragon was surrounded by 3 or more enemies (Which it would be, due to their strength) would you say 9 Black Dragons or 18 Hydras has a better chance of defeating them?
It could also work the other way, and therefore, it would actually be the circumstance you're in, in conjunction with the amound of creatures you possess. (Roughly the same)
"It is extremely unlikely that ten Black Dragons and twenty Hydras would meet in these exact same circumstances, with no Heroes to cast spells or other creatures to come in."
While the latter part of the statement is very true, I would beg to differ about the former section. The Black Dragon and Hydra growth rate per week ratio is 2:1. Therefore, this could very well mean that by the end of 5 weeks, there are 10 Hydras and 5 Black Dragons. This trend may continue so there is 20 Hydras vs 10 Black Dragons. Not solely, but they would be the two main components of someones Chaos army.
"What does this say, is this a proof Hydra's are better than Black Dragons? "
No, it does not. I am merely putting into perspective the effects creature growth has on the creature's statistics. As the ratio is 2:1, one cannot be expected to compare a single Black Dragon to a single Hydra when doing these sorts of experiments, as it doesn't clearly reflect their abilities in context. Have you ever come across 1 Hydra vs 1 Black Dragon in normal gameplay?
The Hydra vs Black Dragon debate may continue, but I believe that this is as far as we're going to get: People's opinion on who's better, who they would choose, and that relation to their fighting style. I don't believe there is a real way of finding out who is overall more beneficial towards your army. As I said before, it depends on circumstances on who is better, putting into context growth rates and special abilities.
A question that I feel is quite interesting in terms of playing Heroes IV is: What decides your overall offensive and defensive strategy for a scenario? Do you make an advance on week 5 or week 25? What are your motives, and how much do your heroes and creatures come into play?
I'll post my answers if any members posts theirs.
BTW: I don't expect many to post, as I believe many will think that the Hydra vs Black Dragon debate is still unsettling. (Which it is)
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 27, 2002 08:52 PM |
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Hydra>>
I didnt mean you should compare them 1:1 when i was saying you shouldnt compare them 1:2 (in battle)!!! i never said that.
I am aware of the differences in growth between the creatures. So i am saying that i rather go for the dragons than approximately twice that amount of Hydra's.
(i dont think there would be ANY discussion if someone asked what was the best creature 1 on 1!)
It just doesnt make any sence letting them fight one another to prove a point.
What you did was adding up the damage, Hit Points, Attack and Defence stats of Hydra's to compensate for the growth difference.
My problem with that was that you cannot add up attack and defence stats. They stay the same no matter how much Hydra's for each Dragon you get.
"A Behemoth's ability allows it to lower the defence of another"
I dont think that this is still the case in Heroes4.
The strength ability is merely a justification of the relatively high amount of damage a Behemoth does, much the same like the toughness of the Zombie. imo they shouldnt even call it a special ability, its already in the stats.
About the Hydra-Phoenix-Titan example:
The Titan had also an extra advantage over the Hydra because of the Chaos Ward.
Its a good example of how Heroes works, every creature has its own strength and weaknesses making them more effective against some creatures than against others.
"Hydras in large battles with more stacks would be more effective. Again, I am taking into account their abilities. If a Dragon was surrounded by 3 or more enemies (Which it would be, due to their strength) would you say 9 Black Dragons or 18 Hydras has a better chance of defeating them?"
Dont forget the Dragon has Breath Attack.
And also keep in mind that perhaps the AI is stupid enough to gang up on the Hydra's and make their job easy, a human opponent might just be a bit smarter. Remember Heroes 3, and how much of a disappointment the Hydra special proved to be there. The Chaos Hydra was the worst level 7 back then.
I think the main point of this discussion is, how important is the BD's magic resistance? For me, that additional protection of your most powerful creature is enough reason to choose the BD over the Hydra, despite the fact that when in that hypothetical 1 against 2 fight, the Hydra's would provide more punch.
In a real battle youll have all the trouble making that most powerful troop of yours to be worth anything , if it is stone gazed, blinded, Hypnotised, teleported away all the time, targeted by Direct Damage spells, etc.
"A question that I feel is quite interesting in terms of playing Heroes IV is: What decides your overall offensive and defensive strategy for a scenario? Do you make an advance on week 5 or week 25? What are your motives, and how much do your heroes and creatures come into play?"
The same as always, an early rush is the way to go. That means an attack perhaps even before week 5 (depending also on the map size of course). If you wait all the way until week 25, you wont win many multiplayer games im afraid
This clearly is a game were aggressive play is rewarded.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 27, 2002 09:27 PM |
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I'd have to agree with Scorpius. Cover/Explore as much as you can as quickly as you can.
Myself, I favour the dragons because of their higher overland speed. I like travelling long and far. Since Asylum have thieves, which can develope Pathfinding you can get a very high movement allowance with dragons. Something around 50 would not be hard to achieve. (but would be almost impossible with Hydras in the army.) On level 3 Asylum offers Efreet which also travels very fast, so these could also be mixed in. The other Chaos creatures are just too slow.
Armed with a couple of dragon you can take out most neutral armies with no losses using only the dragons. In some cases you use the heroes to take some of the punch instead of the dragon to keep them all alive.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted June 28, 2002 04:59 PM |
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So I guess what we're saying here is that really, it depends on your own style of gameplay and what you value. I think someone said this before, but we sort of swept over it and it was never really emphasized enough.
Like Scorpius and Djive said, they value Black Dragons over Hydras because of their Magic resistance and aid in exploration, respectively. I prefer Black Dragons too, not only because I'm stubborn and set in my ways, but also because I do believe that they are stronger. The way I am, I like to set up "controlled" battles to experiment, and see which creature comes out "stronger." Once I have that, I attempt to apply that to real games.
I haven't seen it fail yet, but in addition to Heroes being a game of quick conquest and exploration, it also depends on the player, and how well they can mold their army to their thought process strategy, or vice versa. It all depends on the player.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted August 16, 2003 11:20 AM |
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BD or Hydras
Very hard to choose
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Slugger
Hired Hero
Viking from the north
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posted August 24, 2003 06:06 PM |
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i bet it takes alot of time for you TC to figure out building a pond or a cave 
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The Monkeys are listening...
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted August 28, 2003 11:59 AM |
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hydras are pathetic.99 of 100 times I would build BD.
maybe only if I would play vs barbars I would build em
couse barbs can be fireguards
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