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| Thread: Why work when you can get more money from welfare? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 24, 2013 04:30 PM |
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted August 24, 2013 04:52 PM |
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@ Fauch
Rich men playing in their cassino don't really help the other 99% which are still there and need to take care about themselves, you know. The existence of rich people that don't do actual job is not the source of wealth, it's teh source of frustration and unequality.
Also, let's assume you are right for the moment. The fact that 90% economy is based on financial transactions doesn't mean that the other 10% are irrelevant. In fact they are and only THESE are relevant, as only produced goods can keep people alive. Financial operations are not something anybody can eat or sleep in. They are just a hoax, the biggets hoax in the history of humanity. The existence of virtual money is the reason for people still being poor, regardless amazing technical progress over last two centuries.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 24, 2013 05:13 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Well Fauch, bashing on rich is something I hear so often in France, and it is so wrong. Becoming rich isn't possible because you are awesome. It is a long process, it needs genius ideas, will, discipline and a lot of sweat. Even if someone is born in a rich family, this means some ancestral did it somehow. The exceptions to this are extremely rare.
Are you sure? Tax avoidance? Semi-legal (or purely illegal) approaches to bypass "inconvenient" laws? Bribery of officials? Forming lobbies to push profit-boosting laws which ultimately ruin somebody else? You seem to be a sensible person, why answer one extreme with another?
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 24, 2013 05:14 PM |
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Quote:
Why work when you can get more money from welfare?
Most of my clients have this attitude.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2013 05:40 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:55, 24 Aug 2013.
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Salamandre said:
Successfully speculating requires more than luck.
yes, like choosing the right product and speculating on food, because you know there will always be demand. or selling actions that you know are going to lose money and at the same time speculate against those same actions. or help some country hide the true amount of his debt and speculate against this same debt, etc...
warmonger : yes, but those rich people are still the owners of the production, even if they may not be the producers. the fact that they own 90% of the money could be irrelevant yes, if non-rich people created their own money and made sure everyone has enough for his needs. we only have to not play by their rules.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 24, 2013 05:53 PM |
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@Zeno, the last french fashion is to put all griefs on rich people. By all I mean all, literally. People is even comforted in this direction by the recent 75% taxing, if the state does that, it must have a reason: rich are bad!
I have a particular scorn for this category. One of my "universal truths" is that if you don't make it, look at what you did wrong or not did at all while you should have. Constantly shift our failures on others is nothing else than a bend to mediocrity.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2013 05:59 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:01, 24 Aug 2013.
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Gnomes2169 said:
xerox said:
What happens when the time runs out?
You do not get to use welfare, and must in fact work for their money. I thought this would be obvious...
Yes, but here people claim that if their welfare could run out, they'd be starving to death.
As for France. It's so sad to see the country behind such good ideals slowly turning into a failed state like this.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2013 06:01 PM |
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that was to be expected after Sarkozy blaming everything on poors. not that Hollande is any better. what he does "against" rich (he is clearly not on the side of poors) is just populism and will most likely do nothing to improve the situation of the country. he also probably already planned ways for his rich friends to avoid the 75% tax...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2013 06:03 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:06, 24 Aug 2013.
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There's a guy in school who uses the same rhetoric but I still don't get how taxing the rich and using that money to reinforce welfare dependancy helps the poor.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 25, 2013 09:59 AM |
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Salamandre said:
@Zeno, the last french fashion is to put all griefs on rich people. By all I mean all, literally. People is even comforted in this direction by the recent 75% taxing, if the state does that, it must have a reason: rich are bad!
I have a particular scorn for this category. One of my "universal truths" is that if you don't make it, look at what you did wrong or not did at all while you should have. Constantly shift our failures on others is nothing else than a bend to mediocrity.
If all the rich people were getting rich through talent, hard work and discipline, the people who envy or downright dislike them would have been much fewer. The thing is, the above qualities aren't exactly a must if you want to become rich. It's usually sufficient to be unscrupulous, to have connections and to know how to bypass the law where it doesn't work in your favour or just to start/continue your business with some six+ 0s digit inherited from some relative (even mediocre people can make good money if they already have good money). Nowadays it's even possible to become a celebrity (celebrity = $) if you're just impudent enough. Then there are people like Paris Hilton who combine huge wealth with zero brains and productivity. Of course there is a stratum of rich people who have earned their fortune because of qualities which are socially respected and approved, however they are far from being the only ones.
As for "the rich are guilty", while this is a major generalization, there is a degree of truth in it which can not be ignored if you want to be objective. The people who have a lot of money can influence the economy the most and it's usually their activity or inactivity which decides the fate of entire markets and groups of the population. I'm not even talking about common practices like installing business-related cronies in governmental institutions, avoiding legal restrictions and so on but just about the economic impact that the "big shots" have on entire countries and even globally. Take the collapse of the financial system which can be seen every time before the start of a major economic crisis - it is always associated with wild speculation which ruins entire sectors of the economy and while jobs are closing en masse, certain people get filthy rich. After some time, when the recession is at its worst, you hear some pet politicians talk about how the people who are hit the worst from the crisis should "tighten the belt" (this always means that some regulation aimed at extracting money from the low-mid class will be introduced) while the people who actually have enough funds to get the economy on its feet are silently "forgotten" and remain largely unaffected by such unpopular decisions. When the majority of the population starts to figure these things out, it's normal as hell to be frustrated.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2013 11:09 AM |
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Zenofex said:
When the majority of the population starts to figure these things out, it's normal as hell to be frustrated.
the majority like to listen with their fingers in their ears going "la la la, i can't hear you, la la la..."
even when they do listen, they aren't likely to do anything about it. most of them are gutless worms, and as every day passes, i feel they deserve the very fates they have brought upon themselves. with each passing day, i find myself siding with the bad guys at the top. all i see around me in my life are ****ing sheep.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 25, 2013 12:45 PM |
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A better question is: why work in a poor country when you can have a better life doing nothing in a rich one?
I work my butt off and get less money than welfare takers in US.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 25, 2013 12:57 PM |
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fred said:
even when they do listen, they aren't likely to do anything about it. most of them are gutless worms, and as every day passes, i feel they deserve the very fates they have brought upon themselves. with each passing day, i find myself siding with the bad guys at the top. all i see around me in my life are ****ing sheep.
Doomforge said:
A better question is: why work in a poor country when you can have a better life doing nothing in a rich one?
I work my butt off and get less money than welfare takers in US.
More like, in US, even the poor has a lot to lose to revolt. I remember when I was in high-school, my parents started to make good money and we moved into an apartment with its own private yard, two floors etc etc. And my friends were like, hey Artu, your parents must be doing well! At the same time, there was this American sitcom on the TV, Rosanne. I remember they had a yard, a garage, three floors counting the basement and they were constantly snowing about how poor they were and how they got no money, and I was like WTF? What are these guys talking about?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2013 01:49 PM |
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@ df: it's the least the government could do, really. as much as they and they're friends are stacking up, they better be handing some down to people who could actually use the tablescraps.
@ artu: lol, i never thought of that. i used to watch that show all the time, too. we had a tri-level house for a couple of years, when we first moved here years ago. my mom couldn't afford it, though. that was 20 years ago. me and my family still scrape by. the only ones who are making really good money are my aunt and her husband, they both work for the city, and government money is always good, even at basic jobs like my aunt and her husband have. it's always better on the the government side. they handle all the income.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted August 27, 2013 11:24 PM |
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xerox said:
Gnomes2169 said:
xerox said:
What happens when the time runs out?
You do not get to use welfare, and must in fact work for their money. I thought this would be obvious...
Yes, but here people claim that if their welfare could run out, they'd be starving to death.
As for France. It's so sad to see the country behind such good ideals slowly turning into a failed state like this.
And they can prove that they cannot get money somehow to keep from starving to death besides Welfare? That they are absolutely unqualified for everything to the degree where they cannot make money by providing services to others, permanently, regardless of the situation? In all but the most extreme of situations, I don't think you can honestly say that this is the case, yes? And even in those cases, there are generally other services that are in place to help this supremely disfigured/ crippled individuals besides welfare that are far more specialized and effective than welfare. So then, why should welfare be a permanent solution to a problem that, in most cases, is temporary?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 28, 2013 01:38 AM |
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Conclusion from the thread thus far - unemployment doesn't exist. 
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 28, 2013 02:03 AM |
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Doomforge said:
A better question is: why work in a poor country when you can have a better life doing nothing in a rich one?
I work my butt off and get less money than welfare takers in US.
Quite right.
Immigration issues in this country exist mostly because of the welfare state, in my humble opinion. The state provides big benefits to the unemployed and large families. So unemployed, large families from poorer kingdoms come over. Rather than making immigration more of a hassle (or trying to) or kicking people out, I think it's a better idea to just take away incentive to move here for free money for absolutely free.
But apparently that's a naive and quaint idea.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 02:37 AM |
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Those who like the welfare state because it reduces inequality and/or because it gives more wealth to the poor should like open borders even more, because it gives immigrants the opportunity to be much more productive in a wealthier country, thus reducing global inequality and increasing wealth.
But no, only poor people who happen to speak my language and live in the same borders deserve wealth, not those dirty foreigners. [/sarcasm]
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Eccentric Opinion
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted August 28, 2013 04:09 AM |
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Zenofex said:
Conclusion from the thread thus far - unemployment doesn't exist.
Incorrect, it does exist, but for most people it is, in fact, quite curable!  (Even if the solution is minimum wage, that is > unemployment, and thus not unemployment) Sarcasm aside, offering a permanent solution that does not require work while working for minimum wage gives you less money does, in fact, mean that there are individuals who will not work because they can make more money doing so, and they are thus voluntarily unemployed because they refuse to do something where they will be making less money. Make sense?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 28, 2013 05:55 AM |
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This has been discussed multiple times already. If the minimum wage is below (or fairly close to) the existence minimum of the given country, it is plain stupid to expect that someone would agree to work for it. Most people would prefer begging, stealing, ransacking the garbage bins, etc. Why? Because such activities have greater chance to sustain you in the long run (especially the stealing).
On the other hand, if the "help" provided by the welfare is way above the minimum wage, nobody in his right mind would prefer to waste time for someone else's interests when he can spend it as he sees fit. So obviously it needs to be below that limit BUT at the same time the minimum wage has to provide some actual sustenance.
And of course this is a very simplified version of the whole thing - there are, just to give one example, people who wouldn't work for a minimum wage but would rather go for street robberies because the latter are likely to be much more profitable.
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