xerox said:

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- Is funded by billions of the taxpayers' money
- Is attended by politicians from all over the world
- Is opened by the very president of the Russian Federation himself

"WINTER OLYMPICS IN SOCHI ARE NOT POLITICS DERP"

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Tsar-Ivor said:

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...Everything is politics.

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JoonasTo said:

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Even google is snowing with the olympics, stop ruining a good event with snowing politics you idiots!

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xerox said:

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Then make the Olympics non-political?
Which they currently aren't at all with them being funded by the confisticated cash of the public and attended by politicians. These weeks i'm not going to spend a day NOT getting political about a political event, especially not when its built upon oppression.

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JoonasTo said:

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Dude, politicians are free to attend anything they want, doesn't mean they are politics.

It's just all these snowing jackasses waving their dicks around a sports event just because they can. Had putin kept his mouth shut from the start we wouldn't have any of this snow, they don't really give a snow. They just want to make a scene. Fine, make a scene, go do your gay politics thing in london, moscow, jerusalem, I don't care. Just let people do sports in peace.

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xerox said:

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of course politcans can go to the games in private, but that's not why most of them are there

In fact I SUPPORT letting people do their sports in peace without political involvement but that's IMPOSSIBLE but when the games ARE political due to them being financed and supported politicaly (this is undeniable). As long as Putin opens the games and forces his people to fund them, they CAN NOT be non-political. If the International Olympic Committee were serious about wanting them to be non-political, they should forbid the games from being hosted and funded by governments.

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Kipshasz said:

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all the snowing fuss about Sochi olympics is just because of the anti gay law that Russia has, and also because Putin isn't Like Jelcin who can be bought by a botle of vodka.


also, thosw twin toilets are one of the best damn photoshop works I've seen in a while.

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Adrius said:

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If you're gonna fight homophobia I see no better place or time to do it. Rock on I say.

There is other stuff than the homophobia to be upset about as well

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Tsar-Ivor said:

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Actually Ad, there are homophobes, and protesting against them won't change that, I think it's valuable that there's a country that represents their views and caters to their needs, even if their views can be seen as ignorant. I don't see why anyone in their right minds would stay in a country where their lifestyle is taboo and makes them liable to prosecution.

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OhforfSake said:

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I wanted to compare the homo Russia issue with people who can't travel from poor North African countries to southern European countries, or people who doesn't leave oppression in a dictatorship like it was in Iraq. But those wouldn't be good arguments, because it's not unbiased targeting and it's not easy to travel from.

In stead, I'll say the major issue, if we just forget our personal moral norms for a moment here, is that being gay is not something really measurable.. in most cases at least. So there's this constant fear in the background that you may be labelled as gay, true or not, doesn't really matter, and your entire life in Russia may be ruined. It's not like it's a blessing either, I'm sure it could just as well target very middle class families who love living in Russia, who has relations with people and occupation they enjoy and couldn't imagine living outside of Russia.

It's like as a guy, you may have this fear that someone reports you for something illegal. It doesn't matter if you did it, or not, if the crime is bad enough, you're going to get arrested, you'll maybe be handcuffed in front of people whose respect you seek, you'll be naked in front of strangers, and you'll have to spend the night locked up in a cell until the court settles how to proceed on this matter, how X amount of hours passes.
Then it turns out you're innocent, but only after fighting a year in court and spending so much money that if you lose you'll have to live off government support for the rest of your life..
Most likely, yes only most likely, you'll win, and then you'll get some kind of small compensation.. and sometimes, just sometimes, a complete stranger may poop up your life.

Even when you get free off, it may still be very known that you were arrested. Most jobs won't be accessible. Those who already know may not want to start a family with you.

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fred79 said:

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it's a vicious cycle...

no but really, a country banning gays? that's gay.

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JoonasTo said:

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The thing is that most of this happens just because it's russia and because it's winter olympics, not summer. Look at china summer olympics, way less because no one didn't want to mess with china and because a lot more people care about the summer sports.

The fact is that most people who are whining about the issues are people who don't give a snow about the olympics. You know what it means to the people who actually want to enjoy them? More police, more inconvenience, more terrorism, more security issues.

And no one gives a snow about the half of the countries of the world, that have actual gay laws or policies. There are countries with death penalty! But no, because you're not allowed to run around naked and snow in public that makes Russia something that's way evil. This is just hypocrisy and attention whoring. Go troll somewhere else.

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Kipshasz said:

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yes, Russia is now the axis of all that is evil.
not even Bin Laden was this evil.

snow you western idiots.

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Ghost said:

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Propagation! All know and talk with
Remember Russia is half-religion land and Arabia is religion
And newbie to politico! They develop the world. You don't develop any than you will be nowadays being for people love you.
You know that young think those are ok when nowadays politico say.
Hm coffee shop for example!
Ok newbie look at the world is bad. He come real politico hm
Always be - when who think the propagation! What?
Olden politico must accept be bad politico
Can't help any! When change has done - the world changed etc
Many lands gay are 21 so good be Sochi! They get along!
There don't talk wrong

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xerox said:

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Tsar-Ivor said:

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Actually Ad, there are homophobes, and protesting against them won't change that, I think it's valuable that there's a country that represents their views and caters to their needs, even if their views can be seen as ignorant. I don't see why anyone in their right minds would stay in a country where their lifestyle is taboo and makes them liable to prosecution.

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no their views suck and should change

cultures are not equal

many are patriarchical, intolerant, ignorant and conformistic

they deserve no respect

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OhforfSake said:

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It is not their view that's a problem. Opinions first matter when they're realized. That's the problem, someone is getting oppressed.

E.g. take an officer of the law. It's a person who's hired to do something no matter his opinion on the subject. She may be nicest, warmest, most incredible person in private, but when she's on her job, she's to pursuit upholding the law, or she should look for a different career.

On the other hand, it won't matter if a person who's into bestiary got a job where he'd have to protect the well being of endangered animals as long as he does just that.

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xerox said:

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actions of oppression won't change without a change of views

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Kipshasz said:

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A girl refuses to kiss with a guy, that's normal.
A girl refuses to kiss another girl, she's a homophobe.

Just like snowing feminazis with their snowing double standarts. snow you, genderless snows, and your way of life.

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xerox said:

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lol who even says that?
maybe come to terms with your own ultra conservative views before making up stuff about other people

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Adrius said:

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God so tiresome.

Medieval values.

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Kipshasz said:

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I'm not "ultra conservative" as you put it. This crap is what comes out of all those lgbt rights activists. What snowing rights? you want to snow another guy in the ass, then go and snowing do it. in your snowing bedroom. do not snowing say it out loud, do not snowing host any stupid "prides" or all other snowing stupid bullsnow. It's bedroom business. that's where it should snowing stay.

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Salamandre said:

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The percentages homos/heteros are about same everywhere. What you call "homophobia" is not bigger in Russia than in your country, it is your country censure and constant media manipulations that makes you think you are more "civilized".

Russian government listen to its people before arguing on those matters, while our governments grip our views by making us believe such views are isolated and morally bad.

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Adrius said:

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@Kipshasz: Because straight people sure do keep their sexuality in the bedroom only. I don't think I can walk the 30 minute path to my university without getting reminded that straight is the norm at least 5 times.

Hell, there's even straight people kissing in the streets. I even saw some groping in a club once, how horrific.

How's that for double standards.

However, I know you treat heterosexuality and LGBT on different standards already, which makes this whole exchange so pointless. I'd have more success using a broadsword as an argument, which ironically would be both more satisfying and fit the age of your worldviews.

Urgh.

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Kipshasz said:

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Yea, I'm a heartless snow who mauls to death every gay I set my eyes on.

Look back at my post on this thread, several pages back where Fred asks me some stuff.

There's my snowing answer.

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fred79 said:

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look how long it took people to realize the earth was round. or that the earth revolved around the sun, and not vice-versa. slavery was abolished how long ago, and there are still racists, and racist groups. you will always have die-hards slowing down progress.

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OhforfSake said:

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You've become so... privileged Ad..

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xerox said:

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they get aids and hiv the same way gay people can get it

but is it aids really a big deal these days? maybe I should be more concerned because my impression is that you just eats some medicine and then it doesnt bother you

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JoonasTo said:

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Russia has nothing against you being gay, fred. You can be as gay in russia as you want to.
What it does not allow is sexual acts or propaganda in public because sexual acts are seen as detrimental to public morals and propaganda is seen as agitation. Both rightfully so and if you know russia, you know it doesn't want to allow either. Putin just made a public statement where he asked the homosexuals to leave children alone. This is where all of this comes from.

The general agitator group in the media and at sochi are the ones trolling. Not people in this thread.

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xerox said:

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why is it "rightfully so"?

and its not just lgbtq "propaganda" being banned, there's a general negative attitude towards lgbtq in russia, supported by politicans, which is resulting in a lot of pain for people who just want to be able to live their own lives

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JoonasTo said:

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Sports is pretty much decided with money, norway has a lot of it and it's a winter country, ergo, they are good at winter sports.

Norway never has been good in hockey, it's got very little to do with having winter, more with having places to play. No one really plays in lake or sea ice.

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JoonasTo said:

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Because propaganda IS agitation and sexual acts in public ARE detrimental to public morals. That's why it's rightfully so.

Yeah, you figure, if the majority of the country is against gays, of course the politicians are against gays too. That's what the whole democracy thing is about. D'uh!
What you're whining about is that russia is totally evil and should change, while they're more lenient than any european country 50 years ago, or the united states ten years ago, or half of the countries of the world RIGHT NOW. The fact why they're whining about it at all, is because they want to paint russia as evil or backwards in the minds of the general western population. How does this help anyone I ask?

Back during Helsinki olympics in the 1952, Finnish police conducted sweeps to get rid of gays in the capitol. It was still illegal to promote homosexuality until 1999, while homosexuality itself was made legal in -71(though it was still a mental illness till -83). This is nothing new!
Russia just had a huge mess when the soviet union was disbanded and they didn't really figure out what their laws should say, they legalized homosexuality and there were no problems until people started staging LGBT rallies, we all knows those rallies are bloody awful, with lots of outright sexual content. Everyday russians didn't like that. They started demanding such immoral acts be stopped. Add a couple of child molesting cases by homosexuals and this is where they ended up. Russia has always had a lot of extremists but they didn't really have any wind before the LGBT people snowed this up themselves.

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mvassilev said:

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JoonasTo said:

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Because propaganda IS agitation and sexual acts in public ARE detrimental to public morals.

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"Public morals" usually means nothing more than people's prejudice and hatred. There's actual morality, and then there's just "I find it disgusting! Ban it!" You're right about the democracy part - if a large majority hates gays, then politicians are likely to act on that, which is one of the many reasons that democracy is bad.

And there's nothing wrong with LGBT rallies. To say that homosexuals are responsible for how they're treated is awful victim-blaming. It's the bigots that are in the wrong.
I think broccoli is much more disgusting than homosexuality - should broccoli be banned if enough people hate it? Should pro-broccoli propaganda be banned? Of course not. It's what this whole liberty thing is about. Duh.

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JoonasTo said:

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I don't have anything against any kind of rallies in theory.
In practise when you hold a rally where you have naked people, people with sex toys, people pretending to have sex, you pretty damn well know you're going to pay for that. Russia is a Christian, conservative country, you can't snow with stuff like that and expect to get away with it. In this case, they brought it on themselves.

Public morals are what the public holds them to be, Russia has theirs and US have theirs. General public doesn't like someone trying to change it in either country. What they like even less, is  if someone is trying to change them while offending them at the same time. It's stupid. The downside to all this is that the trolls and idiots are hurting the lgbts just trying to live their lives in peace.

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mvassilev said:

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Quote:

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In practise when you hold a rally where you have naked people, people with sex toys, people pretending to have sex, you pretty damn well know you're going to pay for that. Russia is a Christian, conservative country, you can't snow with stuff like that and expect to get away with it. In this case, they brought it on themselves.

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No, the bigots brought it upon them. The LGBT people weren't doing anything wrong, but the bigots were disgusted and are using the violent, coercive power of the state to restrict the liberties of groups they hate. Saying that the homosexuals brought it upon themselves is like saying that if you leave your door unlocked, you're bringing burglary upon yourself. The people who violate individual liberty are in the wrong and are responsible for their actions - the rallyists aren't responsible for the actions of bigots.

Quote:

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Public morals are what the public holds them to be

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Okay, in that case why should we care about them? I mean, obviously there are prudential reasons not to anger powerful groups, but that doesn't mean that "public morals" are something that should be respected any more than a brutal dictator should be respected out of fear. "Public morals" aren't themselves valuable or deserving of respect.

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JoonasTo said:

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There is a funny word you use there, respect. Why should one respect majority of the people in a country you ask?

When you find the answer to that, you find the fault in your first part too. It takes more than a few bigots to change the laws of a country.

Also, using state power in a democracy* is completely right. It is not comparable to a law-breaking burglar.

*democracy level of russia is debatable but for this case, it is effective democracy.

PS. I'm also pretty sure public nudity is against the law in Russia so the rallyists, who are the cause for aggravating this were to blame in the first place. Followed by the polices inability to do their jobs, followed with the extremists creating riots and so forth and so forth. But they were in the wrong first, if you're going to go that route as you seem to imply.

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mvassilev said:

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Joonas:
You're right, it takes more than a few bigots, it takes a sizable group of bigots, large enough that they outweigh the people against bigotry, so appealing to the bigots is politically beneficial. Also, the politicians themselves are frequently personally bigoted, because bigotry is so common in Russia.

Quote:

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Also, using state power in a democracy* is completely right. It is not comparable to a law-breaking burglar.

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Democracy merely means that the majority takes upon itself the role of burglar. Instead of one guy breaking into your house, it's a large group of neighbors deciding they have a right to tell you what to do. It's equally unjust. The difference is, when the government commits a crime, it calls it "law".

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JoonasTo said:

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We had this exact same conversation a while back, it came down to personal values and beliefs and was unresolved. This one won't end up any other way. As such I don't see a point in continuing this.

Good night mvass

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mvassilev said:

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Good night, Joonas. May you have pleasant dreams.

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fred79 said:

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JoonasTo said:

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Russia has nothing against you being gay, fred. You can be as gay in russia as you want to.
What it does not allow is sexual acts or propaganda in public because sexual acts are seen as detrimental to public morals and propaganda is seen as agitation. Both rightfully so and if you know russia, you know it doesn't want to allow either. Putin just made a public statement where he asked the homosexuals to leave children alone. This is where all of this comes from.

The general agitator group in the media and at sochi are the ones trolling. Not people in this thread.

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i'm not gay, joonas. i just have no problem with people who are, as people who are outside social norms are more interesting to me. if i had a choice of who to hang out with between a heterosexual or a gay or bi person, i would choose the latter, as they would more likely be better at keeping me entertained(not in a sexual sense).

i understand what you meant now. whenever i hear the word "trolling", i automatically assume it was someone at HC. it's become habitual.

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artu said:

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Salamandre said:

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The percentages homos/heteros are about same everywhere. What you call "homophobia" is not bigger in Russia than in your country, it is your country censure and constant media manipulations that makes you think you are more "civilized".

Russian government listen to its people before arguing on those matters, while our governments grip our views by making us believe such views are isolated and morally bad.

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What does percentage of gays among the population being same have to do with how they are treated and what rights they are entitled to? When countries get more civilized, more people don't become gay, only, gays are treated with more respect and less hatred.

mvassilev said:

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Joonas:
You're right, it takes more than a few bigots, it takes a sizable group of bigots, large enough that they outweigh the people against bigotry, so appealing to the bigots is politically beneficial. Also, the politicians themselves are frequently personally bigoted, because bigotry is so common in Russia.

Quote:

---

Also, using state power in a democracy* is completely right. It is not comparable to a law-breaking burglar.

---

Democracy merely means that the majority takes upon itself the role of burglar. Instead of one guy breaking into your house, it's a large group of neighbors deciding they have a right to tell you what to do. It's equally unjust. The difference is, when the government commits a crime, it calls it "law".

---

Haven't we talked about this already earlier? There are sub-categories of democracy, representitive = majority has absolute decisive power, liberal = minority withholds certain rights that are constitutionally untouchable. The latter are considered more civilized.

And about the whole pride and rally thing, I haven't read about the recent events specifically but I agree that if there's a certain event people (conservative and non-conservative) are going to enjoy, it's a little rude to try to turn it into your propaganda platform. That being said, those rallies exist because there has been oppression against gays. In a perfect world, they wouldn't feel the need to declare their identity like that, it would be something like marching out and shouting you're blonde or something. So basically, you reap what you saw, you oppress people more, they will protest more passionately and sometimes even vulgarly. The only alternative would be to go real old-school and try to ban it altogether, which I'm quite certain nobody here suggests.

JoonasTo said:

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Aren't dogs filthy animals in islam? Shouldn't playing with one make you filthy as well?

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There's nothing doctrinal against them, Muhammed was a cat guy and he was not much into dogs, you have that... So the historical tradition is, domestication of dogs as shepherds, hunters or watchdogs etc etc was common but there was no house dogs, generally they weren't seen as pets (or man's best friend) and it was considered filthy to have one IN THE HOUSE. Yet, for example in historical Istanbul, stray dogs were fed by the folks every evening regularly. (That even led to overpopulation and some horrible events in the beginning of 20th century, the existence of stray dogs was starting to be seen as something primitive, not modern, not-western etc etc. So they took them all and left them on a near-by deserted island to die. The hungry dogs howling and crying haunted the city for nights. Chienne d Histoire)

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Salamandre said:

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@Artu, hate is a strong word. The homophobia I observe around is not going until "I hate them" but generally is a healthful movement against their lobby pressures. All is about power, not rights.

When you say "more civilized is the country, better the gays rights", this is arguable. What means "civilized"? Medias and news papers heavily censured like in France? One-man shows canceled because there were jokes on gays/jews/arabs like recently in France?

This is not civilized, this is deforming the reality and blatant oppression of the free thinking.

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artu said:

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Quote:

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All is about power, not rights.

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So the gays are trying to take over France?

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OhforfSake said:

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blizzardboy said:

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I didn't even know they were big on athleticism because their football and hockey team aren't very impressive. They're getting a lot of medals for being so widdle.

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It's because you've been looking at the wrong gender. Norwegian women have the strength of Russian women and grace & beauty of the Scandinavian ones.

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xerox said:

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Ain't it obvious I became politically active to pursue the interests of the "gay lobby"? lol

artu said:

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mvassilev said:

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Democracy merely means that the majority takes upon itself the role of burglar. Instead of one guy breaking into your house, it's a large group of neighbors deciding they have a right to tell you what to do. It's equally unjust. The difference is, when the government commits a crime, it calls it "law".

---

Haven't we talked about this already earlier? There are sub-categories of democracy, representitive = majority has absolute decisive power, liberal = minority withholds certain rights that are constitutionally untouchable. The latter are considered more civilized.

---

In libertarian anarchist doctrine all law beyond the non-aggression principle (where "aggression is defined as the initiation or threatening of violence against a person or legitimately owned property of another") is coercion and thus crime. However libertarians who are not solely anarchists are far, far more likely to support a liberal democracy, constitutionally protecting individual rights, than a representive democracy where the majority can just screw people over any way they'd like. Personally, as a libertarian anarchist or voluntarist, I recognize that even a liberal democracy is coercive and thus criminal but given that we have a state, I prefer it over other types of government.

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OhforfSake said:

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That's heterophobic..  

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Xerox said:

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A few times I've heard people say (or rather write anonymously) that their heterosexuality is getting oppressed by the increasing questioning of heteronormativity  in Swedish society (I can't relate to Salamandres "people are hostile to gays in all societies" at all) so there now needs to be a "straight pride parade". Well, then do it. What's stopping you?

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OhforfSake said:

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Cause I'm not gay, I'm not straight, I'm not defined by any single label. Nor do I believe there should ever be a need to campaign for any activity that I may take part of.

Campaigning is when society oppresses people, not for what they can do, but for who they are.

Think about it like this, in a society where there's no oppression, people promoting a certain activity are basically saying "look at us, we do this stuff to eachother". But the activity is only limited by social stigma, and not the law, basically it's an act of provocation.

On the other hand, if the activity is banned by law, people risk getting punished by being associated with this activity, hence campaigning makes sense. Standing together against the oppression, proclaiming that we won't tolerate your oppression. Not campaigning that we won't tolerate your disgust. People should be entitled to be disgusted as much as they should be entitled to stick stuff up their butt.

Edit: In short summary, campaigning is not about what differentiates us, but standing together and have equal conditions. The idea of the gay lobby goes against everything which campaigning for gay rights have fought for, in my opinion.

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xerox said:

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ohforsake said:

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On the other hand, if the activity is banned by law, people risk getting punished by being associated with this activity, hence campaigning makes sense. Standing together against the oppression, proclaiming that we won't tolerate your oppression. Not campaigning that we won't tolerate your disgust. People should be entitled to be disgusted as much as they should be entitled to stick stuff up their butt.

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Absolutely. but there's not anything wrong with trying to change the attitudes and norms that are making it more acceptable to discriminate and commit crime against LGBTQ people. Are public manifestations effective in changing those values? I'm not sure. Gay pride parades have a lot of public support in Sweden and you will get yelled at for acting homophobic, but I doubt they were instrumental to people becoming more tolerant. Protests and such aimed at Russia (which I have participated in) are more directed towards their legislature though.

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Tsar-Ivor said:

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Quote:

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change the attitudes and norms

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Does it really though? Or does it merely antagonize a majority that disagree with your morals?

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Xerox said:

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Maybe I edited it in before you started writing your reply but I wrote that I was unsure in my post. Like the first gay parade in Sweden was actually held in my home town (maybe the 6th or 7th largest "city") in the 70s yet it took 30 years for it to reach the capital and first in the already relatively tolerant 21th century it become an annual, national tradition. And "reach the capital" might be an overstatement considering my home town had its second gay pride parade two years ago. But sure, I'm inclined to believe that there's more efficent ways of changing norms and attitudes than through public manifestations.

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mvassilev said:

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I don't think the point of pride parades is to change the mind of the majority, it's more to encourage the minority. To make an analogy -
Imagine you like broccoli sandwiches - no, you more than like them, you love them, they're by far your favorite food, and other sandwiches seem barely appetizing at all. But all your life you've seen people make fun of people who like broccoli sandwiches, use "broccoli-sandwich-eater" as an insult, broccoli sandwich lovers are seen as gluttons... The dominant religions say that eating broccoli sandwiches is a sin, and you will go to Hell if you don't repent. Eating broccoli sandwiches is  illegal in many countries, and punishable by death in some. Teens who come out as broccoli sandwich eaters are often bullied, sometimes to the point of suicide. People argue against letting broccoli sandwich eaters adopt kids, because then they'll teach them to like broccoli sandwiches. You know that many broccoli sandwich eaters are hiding their preferences because they fear being disowned by their families (or worse) if they come out.
And then you hear of broccoli sandwich eaters parading down the street, not being afraid to admit their preference. They're out and proud. Some of them have even brought their broccoli sandwiches with them. They say that there's nothing wrong with eating broccoli sandwiches, and they're not going to be ashamed anymore. This would be an encouraging experience for most broccoli sandwich eaters.


So it is for LGBT people.

Quote:

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Haven't we talked about this already earlier? There are sub-categories of democracy, representitive = majority has absolute decisive power, liberal = minority withholds certain rights that are constitutionally untouchable. The latter are considered more civilized.

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By democracy I mean majority rule. To the extent that there are restrictions on what the government can do (and therefore restrictions on majority rule), a system is undemocratic.

Quote:

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So the gays are trying to take over France?

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Yes, they're going to outbreed the straights.

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Quote:

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Some people think that LGBT rights are basic undeniable rights along with freedom of speech

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Quote:

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Imagine you like broccoli sandwiches...
...So it is for LGBT people.

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Baklava said:

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If I was gay, I'd be pretty pissed off.

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Baklava said:

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If my plane crashed on a deserted island with only me, Maggie Thatcher and David Hasselhoff surviving, I'd go, alright Mitch, let's get that over with while the hag gathers the wood.

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baklava said:

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Jesus Christ, MVass, I swear if your analogies were any more off the hook, they'd be Lovecraftian deities.

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Quote:

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We can make reasonable predictions about the future. If I'm eating a piece of cheese, it's not like any reasonable person could say anything like, "That particular piece of cheese may be sacred to God!"

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baklava said:

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The entire matter is just simple enough for people to have no reason to get their knickers in a twist over a country regulating LGBT parades and exposure of minors to it, and using bullshyte adjectives such as "totalitarian" and "fascist" to incite people against their political opponents.

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Baklava said:

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By the way, good luck being gay in Saudi Arabia, though. You're not going to hear anything about it on the news, of course, since your governments have deals with theirs.

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Quote:

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@Xerox Freedom of speech is not the same as what to teach children in schools and what you are allowed to do in the street.

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Quote:

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There is a distinction between the philosophies of equal rights and man's dignity on the one hand, and political manipulation on the other. The more skilled the politicians, lobbyists and quasi-activists somewhere are, the harder it is to notice this distinction, but they are by definition not the most intelligent of people, so it's not that hard really.

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Quote:

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Not everyone supporting animal rights is part of PETA or Greenpeace. Not everyone supporting minority rights is part of the Black Panthers.

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