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| Thread: Do you like democracy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted April 15, 2014 07:44 PM |
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The main point is that "we should have an AI control everything" is not a complete solution, because it leaves open the question of what to program into the AI. You can't just tell it to rule well - it wouldn't know what that means.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
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posted April 15, 2014 08:29 PM |
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Which is exactly why it would make a lot of sense starting work on a Government AI. It would start a discussion - What IS actually a good government; are there procedures that can be standardized and so on - which would scare the hell out of a lot of people who have a lot to lose if government would actually start actimng in the interest of ALL people and not just a chosen few and do the rest to look good.
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mvassilev
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posted April 15, 2014 08:37 PM |
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Is lack of discussion a problem now? People have plenty of ideas about what a good government is, and are very willing to discuss, argue, and even fight for them.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 15, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Which is the problem. Consensus is the foundation of politics, not fighting for what is wrong or right.
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xerox
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posted April 15, 2014 09:23 PM |
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So basically you want sort of an AI technocracy?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 15, 2014 09:37 PM |
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mvassilev
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posted April 15, 2014 09:41 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Which is the problem. Consensus is the foundation of politics, not fighting for what is wrong or right.
And where is this consensus going to come from?
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
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posted April 15, 2014 09:44 PM |
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Well, I want a RATIONAL government, based on clear tenets and principles, reliable and in keeping with laws and constitution, no selling-out and so on, and, that's somewhat precluding humans.
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Aron
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posted April 15, 2014 09:44 PM |
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I thought you notified us of the film Colossus to describe your fears not your dreams?
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JollyJoker
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posted April 15, 2014 09:46 PM |
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mvassilev said:
JollyJoker said:
Which is the problem. Consensus is the foundation of politics, not fighting for what is wrong or right.
And where is this consensus going to come from?
Same as where the consensus for the US constitution came from. Same as where you think it SHOULD come from.
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xerox
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posted April 15, 2014 09:54 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:58, 15 Apr 2014.
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Wasn't the US constitution written by a rather small elite, which was from representative of all the people living in the Thirteen Colonies? I've read about the period and how there was A LOT of seriously hardcore Christian fundamentalism among the common folk. People who would much rather see the US as a "Kingdom of God" rather than a secular republic.
I think I kinda agree with JJ. I want a government built upon complete consensus surrounding a number of principles and tenets, that are very hard to amend. There would be very little room for the interest politics that characterize the democratic systems many of us live with today. I think the latter is one of the things that annoy me about modern democracy. Instead of being even remotely consistent, it is a battlefield between various interest groups who compete for power.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 15, 2014 09:58 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 22:15, 15 Apr 2014.
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You people are going from discussing fake democracy and AI driven nuclear war to having too much democracy and wanting absolute rationality.
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xerox
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posted April 15, 2014 10:00 PM |
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Strange thing that different people have different opinions, huh?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 15, 2014 10:02 PM |
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I'm not completely sure about you but if you mean Joker then he must have a split personality.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 15, 2014 11:27 PM |
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Aron said:
You people are going from discussing fake democracy and AI driven nuclear war to having too much democracy and wanting absolute rationality.
Soon humans, soon..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUeGC-8dyk
I had to post this here...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 16, 2014 03:56 AM |
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I'm happy to see such a good thread and have enjoyed reading it so far. Keep up the thought-provoking discussion. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted April 16, 2014 08:08 AM |
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Aron, the Colossus book/movie is a pretty awesome thing, imo; you can interpret it in many ways, but the interesting thing is, that there are a lot of parallels between the Colossus/Guardian "human overlord" and the OT-God of the Jews.
The machine is basically doing its job - just way better as intended, which is a pitfall every creational activity involves. Just think about customizing viruses in order to change genetics.
We simply have to accept that the "cozy" times are over. The world has become very small, andfor some time now we are able to make it uninhabitable for humans. EVERYTHING we do now, we do as a species, and the equality principle, that is obviously valid for individuals, is also valid for nations: if the people of the US can burn X energy per head per year, then the people in China, India, Bolivia, or the Congo can as well. However, if we all want to reduce dirty energy output to not endanger the species as a whole, we ALL need to reduce it.
And because that is so, what we need is a WORLD government: because we ARE a world now, since what the people in Texas do may have consequences for the people living in Brazil, and what the people in Beijing do may have consequences for the people living in Sweden.
And here is the billion dollar question: do you think we are even near to establish such a thing that will do what is necessary? If the EU is an example, heck, lots of people are opposed to it, for a lot of reasons; the same thing, only a thousand times worse, would happen with a World Union.
What we need is GUIDANCE. We need a powerful instrument to root out the big criminal activities, and we need to root out the links between governmental personnel and crime organizations, corruption.
However, you can't trust humans to do that job: humans are VULNERABLE, first and foremost. Even with the best intentions, they can be threatened and killed, their families can be threatened and killed - and faced with the choice between that and a lot of money on the side ... it's not really a choice is it?
On the other hand, all "handing over" of power ideas - like Colossus, or even 2001, Terminator, Robocop or whatever - are more or less dealing in fear. They put up the finger and tell you, well, humans are able to see, when their program is faulty, and correct it; machines don't and will pull through whatever it is they "think" they should. Also no one is really happy with boarding trains that have no emergency brakes.
All I'm saying is, that we make use of the help of machines in ALL sensitive areas, be it the piloting of air- and spacecraft, dangerous and precise surgeries, control of nuclear power plants and whatnot; we should simply ACCEPT, that we need SUPPORT of those as well, deciding over the fate of a 7 billion and increasing population. The fate of the world SHOULD NOT depend on a guy sitting in Washington or Beijing or Moscow, saying, what the heck, we are going for that Crimea, and to hell with everyone else.
Which is the kind of Democracy that won't bring us any further right now; it doesn't do, going to an election once in a while and pick between two or even more imbeciles, that are either figureheads of a sort or power-lusty psychos to be up there in the first place. It also doesn't do to let people vote over issues they have no idea about, which is why a direct democracy (kind of a facebook/twitter thing with like/don't like options for the people) is bull: you don't want any Dick or Nancy pin a like to something just because they like the presenter of the issue or something.
No, if we want something else than "natural selection" we need viable alternatives - and pretty frigging soon!
As you might have suspected, the economy is already one step ahead: we are currently in a transitional period from faceless consumer society to CUSTOMIZED INDIVIDUAL NEEDS SERVING. The economy is in the process of fulfilling INDIVIDUAL needs. One branch you can observe that finely is the automobile industry. Just look at the plethora of different KINDS of cars you can buy, for each and every purpose, individualized and whatnot - plus, we are getting more MOBILE every day.
So we actually CAN have smaller "communities" of people who share basically the same ideas and live THEIR way - but it has to be under a common and impartial umbrella.
Now consider history: 5000 years of recorded history, in which a lot has happened. So what do you think the world will look like in another 5000? 7014 A.D.? Considering the speed things have developed - who might say? But if you look back, how people lived THEN, and how they live now, you don't need to be much of a prophet to guess that even in five HUNDRED years time things will look VASTLY different than now.
And now add the fact that we'll drown in UTTER chaos now, should the internet fail or get sabotaged or whatever, not to mention the fact that a simple POWER FAILURE over an extended time period would do the same, and the conclusion is that we ARE ALREADY governed by machines. We let them WILLINGLY dictate our lives, if they only do the work.
Bottom line is: we are hooked anyway, so let's try to make a step forward, as long as we still can.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 16, 2014 10:36 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:39, 16 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
And now add the fact that we'll drown in UTTER chaos now, should the internet fail or get sabotaged or whatever, not to mention the fact that a simple POWER FAILURE over an extended time period would do the same, and the conclusion is that we ARE ALREADY governed by machines.
I don't think this part is true at all. If the internet or world's electronic databanks were to vanish tomorrow, there would be a lot of issues and whining, sure, but nothing catastrophic. Governments still rely (also) on paperwork and within a time period of 5 to 10 years we can adapt back to the conditions of 1950 (in terms of reliance on computers).
The end of fossil-fuels however, that will bring some real change, I naturally don't know how it will go exactly but some enormous crisis will rise for sure.
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fred79
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posted April 16, 2014 10:52 AM |
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lol @ artu. sorry man, but your faith in humanity is astounding, in regards to your last post. people would go ape**** if they could no longer communicate over the internet. they would think the government did it, and there would be panic. real panic.
now, if you were to throw a power outage into that mix...
i'd end up stacking all the panicking bozos in my front yard. they'd get violent pretty quickly. moreso when the grocery stores started running out of food. everything is electronic these days. even toothbrushes. when you're talking about power outtages, you're talking about the very real potential of catastrophic failure; a true breakdown of society. i'm sure you've seen the bozo's during black friday. and that's just those stupid ****ers shopping. *laughs evilly*
not to mention, the clean, drinkable water systems; the sewer systems; the traffic systems, etc. all run on electricity.
the bozo's would have a field day. the death rate would skyrocket.
i'll give you a scenario. say, a nation-wide power outage. in a week, the inner cities would be a bloodbath. in a month, the suburbs. in half a year... heh heh heh.
sure, it's farfetched. but, artu, just think of those black friday shoppers. that's them when they WANT something they don't really NEED. imagine, for a second, what things would be like if they couldn't get what they actually NEED to survive, let alone stay calm and orderly. 
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 16, 2014 10:58 AM |
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Dude, think of Berlin or Tokyo, they were literally burned down to the ground and they were back into functioning cities in what, 3 years, 10 years? If you think a few black-outs will send us back to stone-age you better think again. Unlike what you assume, people act quite rational after a short period of panic in times of need like, earthquakes, tsunamis, fire... The struggle for survival makes us much more cooperative.
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