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| Thread: 'Homeless spikes' installed outside of London Flats |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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meroe
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posted June 11, 2014 03:26 PM |
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Basically these were put up because people living in these apartments are fed up with having to run the gauntlet of drugged up, aggressive and dangerous people grouped together and harassing people trying to get into their apartment entrance.
It would be nice to think that some poor inoffensive hobo, down on his luck just wanted a dry place to sleep, but its not really that. When you are coming home with your kids and you have a group of crack addicts in various states piled up outside your front door, threatening you wanting money .... I guess this seemed like an option to stop this ????
Don't forget all the crap they leave behind, used syringes, all manner of excrement and so on.
Would you honestly want to have to fight your way past that every time you came home or left your apartment? No, you wouldn't.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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artu
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posted June 11, 2014 03:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:29, 11 Jun 2014.
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@blizz
Shy is asocial, not anti-social, anyway. Your argument of dehumanization makes sense, I'm not against it. I'm just saying if it was about the ones being thrown out other than the reason of lack of space, suggesting to build shelters INSTEAD of spikes would be quite pointless. While if it was a matter of preferring to sleep under the bridge because it was easier to score drugs etc, building spikes to direct them to shelters would at least make sense.
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meroe
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posted June 11, 2014 03:30 PM |
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Directing them towards shelters ???? Trust me these people know where these shelters are. The truth is that they are so often too dangerous even to be allowed to stay at shelters. They are going to be on the streets regardless.
Not all homeless people are homeless because they have had bad luck. A lot choose the lifestyle or are too drugged up to care.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2014 03:37 PM |
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Yes, but in here, people cant do drugs and in those facilities. By directing, I don't mean giving them coordinates of the shelter, I mean, for some, it would make it the better option because now, they can't sleep under the bridge or in front of a building. Of course, there are always parks but then, this is more like a "as long as it's far away and I can close my eyes to it" policy, that's beside the point.
The point is, IF there are enough shelters, the spikes can at least be defended on the basis that they are making those shelters the preferable option to sleep. If there are not, it then becomes completely about treating the homeless like pests.
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blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2014 03:42 PM |
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artu said:
@blizz
Shy is asocial, not anti-social, anyway. Your argument of dehumanization makes sense, I'm not against it. I'm just saying if it was about the ones being thrown out other than the reason of lack of space, suggesting to build shelters INSTEAD of spikes would be quite pointless. While if it was a matter of preferring to sleep under the bridge because it was easier to score drugs etc, building spikes to direct them to shelters would at least make sense.
I want to make sure I understand your point: you're saying that if the preferred sleeping spaces (under bridges, in inlets, etc.) become off-limits, these homeless will have no choice but to go to the shelter and clean up their act?
I don't think that would work, or at least, it would only work for a few of them; their bad habits are often very, very deeply ingrained into them. A drug addict will do unbelievably debasing things to fulfill their dependency. In some cases, there's pretty much no choice but to either let them be homeless, or forcefully detain them somewhere. A heroine addict will, literally, live in a pigsty and be a sex slave if it means getting heroine.
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meroe
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posted June 11, 2014 03:47 PM |
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Edited by meroe at 15:49, 11 Jun 2014.
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Blizz is right Artu. Many of these people are never going to be able to clean up their act. They are either going to die from drugs or violence. That is the way they choose to live their lives. They really can't be helped.
There are hundreds and hundreds of shelters in London alone. Genuine people who need help get it and eventually get themselves out of this squalor.
But there is a certain criminal underclass that want to live their lives in drug fuelled stupor. They really don't care where they sleep or what happens to themselves.
And trust me when I say this, whether you live in a luxury apartment complex or not ... you do not want to come across these people, ever.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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OhforfSake
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posted June 11, 2014 03:53 PM |
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Where I'm from hobo's aren't aggressive. I guess it depends a lot on the culture.
@meroe - you've children now?
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meroe
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posted June 11, 2014 03:54 PM |
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No Forfy, but I am from London remember and I have been on the receiving end of this behavior.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Corribus
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posted June 11, 2014 03:57 PM |
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If vagrants came all the time and slept on your porch, what would your reaction be?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
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posted June 11, 2014 03:59 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:30, 11 Jun 2014.
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@blizz
Well, it's very obvious the main objective is to keep the "family safe" environments neat, rather than leading the homeless to rehabilitate. But if you put aside the heavy drug addicts and focus more on the homeless who just feels too lazy to walk to a shelter (not in winter maybe but it's quite a possibility), it kind of has a logic to it, which was what I was talking about:
artu said:
Well, if it comes with a shelter they can actually sleep in, it makes sense. You indirectly lead them to the shelter, spending less wellfare on their health problems and spending less on public safety etc etc. It's not a very presentable idea though, it's like the guillotine, the intention can be good (less pain) but it appears as something cold and brutal. It also gives the people the impression that they live in a dog-eat-dog city.
The dehumanization issue is valid though.
@meroe
Quote:
And trust me when I say this, whether you live in a luxury apartment complex or not ... you do not want to come across these people, ever.
I live right in the center of a mega-city, right at a point where the most famous and busy street of Istanbul clashes with the ghetto of old-school gypsies, transsexuals, drag queens, poor immigrants from the Eastern provinces who escaped from civil war... You trust me, I have enough experience to comprehend the situations you mention.
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blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2014 04:01 PM |
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Corribus said:
If vagrants came all the time and slept on your porch, what would your reaction be?
In order:
Asking them to leave
Calling the police
Building a fence
I would care dramatically more if it was a personal home versus the safety and anonymity of a large apartment complex. Homeless don't nearly as often go to suburban areas. 1000 different affluent moms complain to the authorities.
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blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2014 04:08 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
Where I'm from hobo's aren't aggressive. I guess it depends a lot on the culture.
There is no such thing as a drug addict that isn't at least marginally dangerous. If you have a severe chemical dependency, you will do things that a healthy person will not do.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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meroe
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posted June 11, 2014 04:12 PM |
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When I worked in a children's health center, we had a massive problem with vagrants congregating outside the main entrance. It was a nice sunny spot with benches. Asking a large group of alcoholic and drugged up people to move because they were frightening visitors (they were also begging) isn't really an option - not unless you want a bottle smashed in your face or a knife in your gut.
The reason they congregated outside the clinic was that the adults center, where they got all their methadone and other stuff wasn't far. They had special rooms and facilities in the adult center for users to inject themselves safety etc etc. But they still preferred to come to us, sit outside on the benches in the sun, fight, drink, take drugs, have sex and beg for money and cigarettes. They would constantly ask to use our facilities. It was appalling.
Calling the police was the only option, but they always came back. So you called the police again and so on. Then you came to work in the morning to find windows broken or a couple, half naked lying on a bench.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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OhforfSake
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posted June 11, 2014 04:13 PM |
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I find it more problematic that smokers tend to smoke just outside the entrance than that there are poor people just outside the entrance.
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Corribus
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posted June 11, 2014 04:31 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
In order:
Asking them to leave
Calling the police
Building a fence
I would care dramatically more if it was a personal home versus the safety and anonymity of a large apartment complex. Homeless don't nearly as often go to suburban areas. 1000 different affluent moms complain to the authorities.
Supposing it was a continual problem (vagrants showing up and sleeping on your porch), police were unresponsive, and building a fence was not feasible or effective, would you consider getting a dog?
Even if it were a large urban or suburban apartment complex, would you like to step over a bunch of sleeping homeless people every time you walked into your home? What if you owned a small business and you were able to establish a link between declining customers and the homeless people sleeping and or begging for money in front of the door to your business?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JoonasTo
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posted June 11, 2014 04:31 PM |
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Why don't they just keep calling the cops to drag the people the snow out of their yard?
blizzardboy said:
There is no such thing as a drug addict that isn't at least marginally dangerous. If you have a severe chemical dependency, you will do things that a healthy person will not do.
Exactly, snow all that caffeine, nicotine and ethanol.
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Corribus
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posted June 11, 2014 04:35 PM |
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Honestly, I get the point of view of the people who installed the spikes, and generally support their right to do whatever they want to their property. That said, there are other things that the owners could put there to deter sleepers (planters filled with flowers, say) that wouldn't be so outright "screw you, homeless people" as spikes. I mean, why not install a machine gun turret while you're at it?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2014 04:41 PM |
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Corribus said:
blizzardboy said:
In order:
Asking them to leave
Calling the police
Building a fence
I would care dramatically more if it was a personal home versus the safety and anonymity of a large apartment complex. Homeless don't nearly as often go to suburban areas. 1000 different affluent moms complain to the authorities.
Supposing it was a continual problem (vagrants showing up and sleeping on your porch), police were unresponsive, and building a fence was not feasible or effective, would you consider getting a dog?
Even if it were a large urban or suburban apartment complex, would you like to step over a bunch of sleeping homeless people every time you walked into your home? What if you owned a small business and you were able to establish a link between declining customers and the homeless people sleeping and or begging for money in front of the door to your business?
It's a loaded question in my opinion
If you're living in a city where homelessness (among other things) is more widespread, then none of that is going to matter so much. In Johannesburg, you're not going to lose business by having the occasional kids sleeping near your business. Everybody and anybody is used to it and is just going to go about their day, other than for the occasional greenhorn from Vancouver or Hamburg or something that shows up because he wanted to go somewhere exotic.
In cities where it is more rare, you have far more resources at your disposal to take care of the problem. You can theoretically handle the problem without resorting to more dehumanizing tactics.
If you're living in a more affluent city, and by chance, homeless people happen to become attracted to a particular spot like a magnet, then you can have the police & social services zone in on that spot.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2014 04:44 PM |
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Corribus said:
Supposing it was a continual problem (vagrants showing up and sleeping on your porch), police were unresponsive, and building a fence was not feasible or effective, would you consider getting a dog?
Even if it were a large urban or suburban apartment complex, would you like to step over a bunch of sleeping homeless people every time you walked into your home? What if you owned a small business and you were able to establish a link between declining customers and the homeless people sleeping and or begging for money in front of the door to your business?
I don't think anybody would describe that situation as ideal, the question is, are the spikes a good solution? Or if we're beyond good and bad, are they the only solution or even an effective solution in the long term?
They ring an offensive tune to the ear, that's for sure and hence all the controversy they cause. Solutions that seem to underline the social inequalities and class conflict so blatantly, may end up more harmful than productive. The irony is, people usually want to pretend there is no such problem and look the other way, while these spikes keep reminding them the magnitude of the problem. Which I think, sadly, is the real reason behind all this controversy.
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artu
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posted June 11, 2014 04:55 PM |
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Just out of curiosity Blizz, why did you edit out Bangkok and replaced it with Johannesburg?
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