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| Thread: Death penalty yes or no? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 26, 2014 03:02 PM |
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I am for it. I see little point in keeping monsters alive at the taxpayers' expense.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 03:03 PM |
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I am opposed to death penalty in any other case except the most horrible cases like Breivik. There is no doubt it wasn't him and that is just monstrous behaviour and should be rooted out of the system.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 04:14 PM |
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Minion said:
I am opposed to death penalty in any other case except the most horrible cases like Breivik. There is no doubt it wasn't him and that is just monstrous behaviour and should be rooted out of the system.
Him getting the death penalty won't get his behaviour "rooted out of the system".
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 04:23 PM |
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Nothing can root it out, but people like him can't be returned to society, ever. So I see no moral dilemma giving him the death penalty. I am neither demanding it either, I find his fate irrelevant, after such a crime.
However I would never condone torture like JJ... that just makes people more crazy.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 26, 2014 04:25 PM |
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I'm all for torture. For some monsters, death is too kind. They deserve to suffer for their actions. And as JJ correctly pointed out, death isn't much of a deterrent. Perhaps a promise of constant agony would be more effective?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 26, 2014 04:29 PM |
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If people understood what hell means, we wouldn't have criminals, the very thought of eternal suffering should deter anyone from doing evil.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 04:33 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 16:34, 26 Sep 2014.
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The suffering of a monster would only serve in making you feel better. I don't believe our justice system should be part of that. I don't believe in torture as a deterrent either, any more than in death penalty as a deterrent. (which has been proven it doesn't work)
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 26, 2014 04:41 PM |
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So we should let them rot, at the taxpayers' expense, for life in a box? How is that just or economical? Why should a murderer get to keep on living, for essentially free, after robbing someone else of their chance to do so?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 26, 2014 04:42 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 16:44, 26 Sep 2014.
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Here's a problem, while we are certain that the one deserving the death penalty has done evil things, is it bad if we rejoice in his suffering?
I as one would not rejoice.
OmegaDestroyer said:
So we should let them rot, at the taxpayers' expense, for life in a box? How is that just or economical? Why should a murderer get to keep on living, for essentially free, after robbing someone else of their chance to do so?
That's why I'm also for death penalty in truly grave cases.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 05:01 PM |
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If the cost is the problem then you should know that it isn't cheap to get a death penalty - capital punishment cases drag on way longer than normal cases and hence cost millions of taxpayers money.
I already said that in my personal opinion I do not object death penalty in severe cases, like mass murdered Breivik, right on this very page.
When you refrase the question in "we should let them live?" I don't even know how to answer, as I don't truly care if he is killed or spends the life in prison, as long as he is forever out of society.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 26, 2014 05:03 PM |
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Edited by Baklava at 17:06, 26 Sep 2014.
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What's up, guys.
Here, here and here are some interesting studies about how the death sentence actually costs the taxpayers far more than life without the possibility of parole.
Even if it costed significantly less, however, it would still be worth it, even if for that one guy in who knows how many years that would be executed innocent.
And as Xerox said, there's hardly any evidence that capital punishment would ever root Breivik out of the system. Capital punishment of ideological crime makes its perps into martyrs, and killing off psychopaths hardly scares other psychopaths into becoming model citizens.
Oh, and capital punishment robs the guilty of a huge chunk of the possibility of redemption. This should be somewhat of an issue for any Christian, though of course hardly a practical argument in a secular state. Or in Texas Gun Christianity.
As for the justice argument, I think both theists and atheists can agree that justice is a bit more complicated than eye for an eye.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 05:09 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 17:10, 26 Sep 2014.
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Wohoo, it's Baklava. I hear they are allowing a gay pride again in Serbia lol *pokes Bak with a rainbow colored cucumber*
Ahem I'd just like to point out I don't think death penalty roots anything out any more than life in prison does, both are acceptable ways to get rid of the culprit of Mass murder for me. I shouldn't have chosen that expression.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 05:09 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:10, 26 Sep 2014.
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Justice is indeed complicated, since it is so subjective. That's why I think instead of politicans deciding which penalties should follow what crime, punishment should be the result of negotiations between the prosecuted and the victim. If they agree on execution as means to settle the matter, then that's fine by me, but it is not a penalty that should be imposed by the state.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 26, 2014 05:35 PM |
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Quote:
I hear they are allowing a gay pride again in Serbia lol *pokes Bak with a rainbow colored cucumber*
That time of year.
Was waiting in a queue for some bureaucracy yesterday and some elderly folks were attempting to figure out how lesbians have sex. They had interesting ideas. We were always an innovative people.
It's all a far more social event here than over there. You have LGBT activists, leftist students, liberals, anarchists, feminists, all coming together from one side, you have hooligans of every major football team in the country charging at them in this rare and touching kind of unison, you have cops getting together to discuss the pitiful state of their wages while exchanging tear-gas for stones with the crowd, you have us normal folks coming together to watch it all on TV and nomming on the snacks we bought the day before... The whole endeavour really connects people.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 26, 2014 05:59 PM |
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xerox said:
that's why I think instead of politicians deciding which penalties should follow what crime, punishment should be the result of negotiations between the prosecuted and the victim. If they agree on execution as means to settle the matter, then that's fine by me, but it is not a penalty that should be imposed by the state.
I swear, talk like this definitely tends to convince me that Libertarianism is just a teenage fantasy and nothing more.
1- What if the victim is dead, missing, 100.000 people , a child, mentally ill, acting by revenge, in on it... And many more incompatible possibilities.
2- How likely is it that you think the responsible person for a crime and the victim of that crime will agree on a punishment, especially if the felony is of a personal nature and both parties think they are right.
3- Mostly they wont and what happens when they can not agree?
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 26, 2014 06:40 PM |
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Do remember though that not everyone receiving the death sentence is a "monster", hell in most cases it's a first time offence, and let's not even think about those who are wrongly accused.##
I agree with Omega that "monsters" ought not to be locked up at the taxpayer;s expense, which is like £40,000 average a year. Some ought to be executed, but effort ought to be made to find them suitable work, like military interrogators. (those people must be ****ed in the head too) I mean why get rid of someone or make them into a burden when you can turn them into an asset.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 26, 2014 07:03 PM |
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Baklava said:
Even if it costed significantly less, however, it would still be worth it, even if for that one guy in who knows how many years that would be executed innocent.
So it's better for an innocent to spend the rest of his or her life in prison with no chance of parole, with a bunch of other violent criminals, where they may be subjected to rape, battery, and other brutality, than to execute them? For an innocent, I think death would be far preferable than facing a bitter, slow death.
Quote:
And as Xerox said, there's hardly any evidence that capital punishment would ever root Breivik out of the system. Capital punishment of ideological crime makes its perps into martyrs, and killing off psychopaths hardly scares other psychopaths into becoming model citizens.
But why keep psychopaths alive who commit crimes? Why bother locking them away forever? Why not just eliminate them? It's akin to a rabid dog. No matter the reason why, it is a threat to the public. It should be put down. Violent criminals should be as well.
Quote:
Oh, and capital punishment robs the guilty of a huge chunk of the possibility of redemption. This should be somewhat of an issue for any Christian, though of course hardly a practical argument in a secular state. Or in Texas Gun Christianity.
Some people are beyond redemption, so that's not much of an argument. Furthermore, do you believe religion should be a factor in determining what criminal punishments are? I do not. Also, I have never heard of the odd term "Texas Gun Christianity" before.
Quote:
As for the justice argument, I think both theists and atheists can agree that justice is a bit more complicated than eye for an eye.
I agree. Justice should be about restoring the victim and punishing the criminal. If the criminal can learn from his or her actions, that's a bonus. It should not be expected though. Again, how is it just for a murderer to keep on living after depriving another of their opportunity to do so?
Lastly, take a look at this story. Assuming the suspect is guilty, how does this person deserve anything other than death? He decapitated another human being. How can you redeem someone who accepts that it is OK to carve off another person's head? What is left to redeem?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2014 09:01 PM |
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OmegaDestroyer said:
I'm all for torture. For some monsters, death is too kind. They deserve to suffer for their actions. And as JJ correctly pointed out, death isn't much of a deterrent. Perhaps a promise of constant agony would be more effective?
and what about people wrongly accused? you would permit the use of torture then?
not that i don't agree, that a simple death is too kind for some people. just that, people tend to make mistakes, and one of those, is wrongly accusing innocents.
it's a tricky subject, and not one that has any real definitive answer. the human race isn't advanced enough, in my opinion, to make any such decisions on anyone's life.
even if someone was supposedly caught "in the act", who's to say that you could believe the accuser? even in instances that would cause me great rage at reading what was printed about the incident, my emotions would be immaterial, because i wasn't there to witness it personally.
i couldn't even reliably say that a victim might not deserve what the murderer was dishing out. maybe the "victim" had done something heinous to the murderer.
unless it was something very personal, that happened in my own life, and i knew ALL the circumstances that led up to it, then i couldn't make that decision myself.
now, if i caught someone in a horrible act against a loved one, then i would kill the person myself(against any other judgement). i don't think anyone else would need to be unnecessarily involved. i could dish out the punishment much better than strangers to the situation, in that respect.
but really, there is no straight answer. there are too many variables, too many unknowns, for any external source to make a decision on something they weren't personally involved in.
of course, as a human in the current state of "evolution", you could always let your emotions get the better of you, when presented with the "facts" of a case foreign to your own personal life. but then, you would be no better than all the other humans who feel confident to make decisions, in something they weren't directly witness to.
in which case, the person making the decision wouldn't really care about their current state. they'd know they were "right". 
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 26, 2014 11:07 PM |
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@OD
I'm not sure the state should have the right to decide that death is preferable to anything for me in order to protect me. That argument doesn't really stand any more than forced euthanasia.
And capital punishment, we'll agree, is quite irreversible, whereas incarceration simply eats away a chunk of your life and you should have the right to reparations if it turns out you were jailed wrongly.
Whether people incarcerated for life are killed or not makes absolutely no difference to the public except that their incarceration costs less. The only other distinction is that, executing people, you nourish a culture of pre-medieval justice where punishment is determined not by reason, but vengeance. According to which, the judicial system should employ state rapists that mete out fitting punishment on people convicted of sexual assault.
No man is at any point beyond redemption, but religion should not factor into this. That's why I said it's hardly a practical argument in a secular state. Texas Gun Christianity is a term I like to use for the views of Bible-belt conservatives who ardently support capital punishment, ownership of assault weapons and offshore warfare.
The question to ask here is, if leaving the perpetrators alive is more economical, and the effects are the same since they're removed from society either way, and life incarceration lowers the extent of misuse and prevents the state-sponsored murder of an innocent man every once in a while, what effective argument for capital punishment is left? Since bloodlust and revenge simply aren't it in the 21st century, in my opinion.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 26, 2014 11:46 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 00:05, 27 Sep 2014.
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It is interesting how people think letting someone just die is too easy and they should be tortured. Then the next line is about how letting them live after murder is not just. wtf people, logic much?
Reminds me of an old law in Finland where someone robbing the mailman ought to be hung, shot and decapitated. Because killing him once just wasn't evil enough. 
Justice system shouldn't be about justice(which is revenge anyway). It should be about repressing criminality the best it can. The oldschool justice system is not accomplishing this aim very well at all. Actually, it pretty much sucks at it.
These people the system now deems unworthy of a life - be it behind bars or on the noose - were once the lifeline of humanity and society itself. This is how humanity repays its debts to the past. By wiping it out with archaic methods. Natural selection of today in the human species. It's self-directed evolution at work. And people tell me genetic modification and eugenics are "inhumane" or "unnatural". snow off people. Just snow off.
Minion said:
I am opposed to death penalty in any other case except the most horrible cases like Breivik. There is no doubt it wasn't him and that is just monstrous behaviour and should be rooted out of the system.
You want to make martyrs? 
A few dead men area always more valuable to a cause than few incarcerated ones.
After reading more of this page.
ARE YOU snowING SERIOUS OD?
I guess now I know why you're a lawyer. May you rot in hell man.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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