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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted June 27, 2019 06:08 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I still don't understand the reluctance to go FORWARD in the timeline. H6, ok, you can try everything ONCE. But ANOTHER prequel?
Can you shed light on that?
Originally it was decided to do prequels because Heroes Kingdoms was supposed to be set in the post-Dark Messiah timeline. So when I joined H6 it had already been decided the game would be set in the past instead. And of course there definitely was an itch on the writers' side to explore some of the past events of Ashan before moving forward.
Then after H6, more Might & Magic projects began to start development in other Ubisoft studios: Duel of Champions, Heroes Online, and a couple of others that never went far or were eventually cancelled (Raiders...) Since these teams were new to Might & Magic, it was safer for them to be set in the existing timeline rather than face the challenge to imagine the great unknown. (Also Heroes Online really wanted to use Sandro for instance, so that put them firmly in the pre-H5 era).
There was also still hope a proper sequel to DM would happen eventually, and that it would be the proper place, rather than Heroes, to resolve the question of Sareth's choice.
When Heroes VII began its development I remember we had big discussions internally about which era it should be set in (there were talks of going to the post-DM era, or even to a brand new continent). The choice to be a continuation of H6 in terms of visual style made sense because of our production constraints (new team, new engine, release window, limited budget...)
Some of you may be thinking "then you should have increased the budget" but sadly that's not how it works. The higher-ups define the project's mandate, and all we can do is find a way to make it work within these parameters.
I believe marketing also weighed in at some point (these decisions always involve a lot of people, not just the game's creative team), as the "Griffin" was considered the symbol of the Heroes brand (especially since Heroes III HD had just been released and was also using the Griffin as its icon). So they felt we needed a Griffin character as our lead (again), and thus it became the tale of Ivan.
Had Ubisoft Partners (our department) not been shut down, we would have moved forward with Heroes VIII, and it would definitely have been set after Dark Messiah, and probably in another part of Ashan. I would have made sure of that.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 27, 2019 06:52 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:53, 27 Jun 2019.
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Marzhin said:
I believe marketing also weighed in at some point, as the "Griffin" was considered the symbol of the Heroes brand (especially since Heroes III HD had just been released and was also using the Griffin as its icon). So they felt we needed a Griffin character as our lead (again), and thus it became the tale of Ivan.
That's.. kind of a bizarre reasoning.
Too bad, post DM for H7 would have been a lot more interesting.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2019 09:02 PM |
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Interesting to hear.
If I'm honest, I think that going backward with H6 already was a mistake, maybe even THE mistake. DM raised expectations of an interesting future and it should have been Heroes 6 pressing on with it, leading the charge into the future, while smaller projects could have dealt with interesting niches of the past.
But that's all in the past now.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted June 28, 2019 09:42 AM |
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Edited by Marzhin at 09:43, 28 Jun 2019.
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Elvin said:
That's.. kind of a bizarre reasoning.
Just to clarify I'm not talking about our internal brand team (Leslie and co) who were doing their best, but the worldwide marketing teams, especially in the US. They always came with downright bizarre demands ("Michael needs to wear a hood on Heroes VI's box art, because hoods sell more!")
Also the number of times they would refer to Might & Magic X as "Heroes X"... Drove me crazy.
Anyway, today's my last day at Ubisoft... Time to start a new chapter 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 09:55 AM |
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I certainly hope it will be a good one. I can imagine how awful it must feel, if you get the dream job, making your hobby your profession, and the everything slowly turns to dust because things don't click on levels you can't influence and have to helplessly watch how things run afoul.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 28, 2019 10:39 AM |
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Marzhin said:
Anyway, today's my last day at Ubisoft... Time to start a new chapter
Aww. Any new interesting venues you're headed towards?
In any case, thanks for sticking up with us  , especially during the height of development of the game . It was much appreciated.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 28, 2019 10:50 AM |
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Marzhin said:
Just to clarify I'm not talking about our internal brand team (Leslie and co) who were doing their best, but the worldwide marketing teams
Well obviously I wish you the best in your new beginning.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted June 28, 2019 11:45 AM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 11:47, 28 Jun 2019.
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Marzhin said:
Had Ubisoft Partners (our department) not been shut down, we would have moved forward with Heroes VIII, and it would definitely have been set after Dark Messiah, and probably in another part of Ashan. I would have made sure of that.
Closing this department was one of the most stupid decisions I can imagine then.
I would say moving post DM could help those who dislike Ashan as well as it would be (almost) like a brand new world.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 01:16 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Closing this department was one of the most stupid decisions I can imagine then.
I would say moving post DM could help those who dislike Ashan as well as it would be (almost) like a brand new world.
I think, that's a somewhat twisted assessment. If they have moved to post-DM immediately, there might have been not many disliking Ashan in the first place, while after H7 it's simply too late for everything.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 28, 2019 01:45 PM |
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I doubt a post DM story and aesthetic changes would make the disappointing issues disappear.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 28, 2019 02:58 PM |
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cheers for trying, I do not agree with Ubisoft's Might and Magic games but it does not mean that everyone involved lacks brains or talent to make a good game (see Amplitude), so do that somewhere else and I will buy it cheers lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 03:40 PM |
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Elvin said:
I doubt a post DM story and aesthetic changes would make the disappointing issues disappear.
Not much to argue against - still, from a story-telling point, H6 was stagnation (and H7 as well). A really bad decision. Going forward would have been a chance to create real upheaval, mix things through and tell some amazing tale.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 05:11 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Had Ubisoft Partners (our department) not been shut down, we would have moved forward with Heroes VIII, and it would definitely have been set after Dark Messiah, and probably in another part of Ashan. I would have made sure of that.
How important was that departament to M&M's futute? Is it basically safe to say that the franchise is dead right now?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted June 29, 2019 12:44 AM |
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Stevie said:
How important was that departament to M&M's futute? Is it basically safe to say that the franchise is dead right now?
Ubisoft Partners was Ubisoft's "third party" department, and was producing the "main" Might & Magic and Heroes games, as well as a few of the spin-off games (Clash of Heroes, Dark Messiah).
Another internal Ubisoft studio could still pick the torch, but to be honest I think they'd rather create their own fantasy IP. It makes sense: if you're going to invest years of work and dozens of millions of dollars, you want it to be your own thing. There's also this feeling that Might & Magic is too small and too niche. Many people in the internal studios will tell you how much they love Heroes, yet they have no interest in actually making one. They want to make blockbusters. That's what they do.
At Ubisoft Partners we were a small entity doing smaller projects, and while it had its disadvantages (limited resources, small budgets, tight deadlines), it also meant Might & Magic was more than "just another fantasy IP" to us.
The franchise is not dead, but its main market is China and/or mobile currently. I still hope that if it has a successful run in China it will eventually also get a second wind in the west.
And you never know: one of Ubisoft's internal studios might eventually decide to seize the opportunity and make Might & Magic their own. But they probably wouldn't do the kind of game the community hopes to see.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 29, 2019 01:39 AM |
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Marzhin said:
And you never know: one of Ubisoft's internal studios might eventually decide to seize the opportunity and make Might & Magic their own. But they probably wouldn't do the kind of game the community hopes to see.
I just don’t get the stubborness of changing the essence of what once was a well established IP. Companies spend money in advertising to reach out to players so that they can know a game exists, they actually don’t need to do that since they already have (had?) a playerbase! No one can say what "the community" wants, different players want different things. But being fan of a particular licence goes beyond that scope and I think you understand me clear.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2019 09:12 AM |
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Marzhin said:
There's also this feeling that Might & Magic is too small and too niche. Many people in the internal studios will tell you how much they love Heroes, yet they have no interest in actually making one. They want to make blockbusters. That's what they do.
They had the chance and botched it. Twice, actually. I'm also not really sure why you hire studios which are not known for developing many known games, much less blockbusters, when your intention is to produce one. That seems somewhat incongruent.
They also did create their own "Might&Magic world", obviously. It has nothing to do anymore with Heroes of Might & Magic. Different game world, for one thing, which is totally Ubisoft, and different game for another. That's one reason why H7 didn't work out.
I mean, you should know, redoing H4 scenarios for Ashan.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 29, 2019 09:54 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
I'm also not really sure why you hire studios which are not known for developing many known games, much less blockbusters, when your intention is to produce one. That seems somewhat incongruent.
Yes but imagine if they developed a blockbuster without actually paying for a talented studio! What a glorious day it would be for ubi!
Heh
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2019 11:37 AM |
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If you consider the fuss they made before the release of H6 (remember Budapest?), marketing certainly had a blockbuster budget.
Too bad they didn't have much of a game to show at that point, not to mention a blockbuster.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted June 29, 2019 12:09 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Marzhin said:
There's also this feeling that Might & Magic is too small and too niche. Many people in the internal studios will tell you how much they love Heroes, yet they have no interest in actually making one. They want to make blockbusters. That's what they do.
They had the chance and botched it. Twice, actually. I'm also not really sure why you hire studios which are not known for developing many known games, much less blockbusters, when your intention is to produce one. That seems somewhat incongruent.
*Internal* studios (Ubi Montréal, Ubi Massive, Ubi Quebec, Ubi Toronto, etc.) want and even need to do AAA blockbusters. They're huge teams (300 to 600 people), with high salaries, and to be profitable they need to create games that will sell millions of copies. The average Assassin's Creed game sells 5+ millions copies in the first year (before price cuts). The best ones reach 10 or more.
Heroes is considered a triumph if it sells, say, half a million. So it's a completely different scale.
Ubisoft Partners on the other hand was working with external studios like Black Hole or Limbic. Smaller projects, much smaller budgets, and so we could do more "niche" games like Heroes or Might & Magic X.
JollyJoker said:
If you consider the fuss they made before the release of H6 (remember Budapest?), marketing certainly had a blockbuster budget.
I see. You believe *that* was a blockbuster budget. I guess that explains a lot.
Heroes, a game that is considered very expensive for a niche, PC-only strategy game, has a budget somewhere between 5 and 10 millions. I'm not allowed to give the exact number, but that gives you an idea.
Multiply that by ten or twenty and now you get an actual blockbuster budget.
When Bolloré came knocking at the door it was considered too risky to invest even those (relatively) small sums into external companies, and so Ubisoft Partners was shut down to focus on internal developments.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2019 12:12 PM |
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if all those clowns care about is money, then why tf don't they share the source code for homm3(and any unreleased content) with the fans? if it's such a money pit, as you say...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
