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| Thread: Unit's experience, solo units and solo heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 03:28 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
with a small army you can get much stronger than you should
And with an hero level 40 and all spells you need 1 creature to kill the map, similar argument.
Same flaws can be applied to uber Heroes, uber spells, uber creatures. Experience is in not something different than being overpowered at all above levels. Is not what you use which will imbalance the game, but how is done.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 18, 2014 03:52 PM |
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Except a level 40 hero needs to get a snowton of experience (unlikely even on campaigns xd), needs to visit a snowton of towns to get all those spells (which you have to develop), to visit a snowton of map locations to get all the artifacts...yeah, that lvl 40 hero takes a while to get. And about that 1 creature hero...yeah, try that in multiplayer, heh.
With the classic HoM&M formula, I just don't see it working well.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 04:18 PM |
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Sg, you construct your argument on the idea that only one hero with small army will have experience, how that is possible? If everyone has access to experience ranks, we can't talk about imbalance. A hero with small experienced army will not get any advantage. It will still be a small army, unable to win vs bigger army with same experience. Captain Obvious I'm.
My argument is not "experience for the sake of". Creatures experience (while not changing at all the balance as equally shared) allows unlocking combat features, and this is where it matters. Having same creature be able to behave in 12 different ways, this is what we can call variety.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 04:46 PM |
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Well, more options usually means more strategy. If done correctly I wouldn't mind such a system. If it worked.
I don't like units being able to move around without heroes though. Beside, heroes are kind of cheap to hire.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 05:26 PM |
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Edited by Lesij at 17:31, 18 Aug 2014.
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Storm-Giant said:
HoM&M is about heroes leading armies through a chess-type battlefield where stacks represents numbers of creatures, while the hero as a one explores the adventure map.
Untrue. For almost everyone heroes games are mainly about something else. That depends on taste not on objective rules you try to state here.
Storm-Giant said:
For many of them, I don't think so.
That is why posts in this sections are typed ;P To see what others think. We are the fanbase :]
Storm-Giant said:
Of course, innovation has to come on every installment of the series. But adding a certain feature just because some people had fun with it in a MOD...just isn't enough to me. And here come the critics to that feature in particular that have been pointed out in this thread.
Can you guys check this thread out:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40476
Pwetty pwease :<
Storm-Giant said:
Except a level 40 hero needs to get a snowton of experience (unlikely even on campaigns xd), needs to visit a snowton of towns to get all those spells (which you have to develop), to visit a snowton of map locations to get all the artifacts...yeah, that lvl 40 hero takes a while to get. And about that 1 creature hero...yeah, try that in multiplayer, heh.
Have you played WOG with that option on? From what you type it seems to me as if you were theoretising and never played a full game with creature experience gain on... If you don't like the idea itself just say so and stop constructing invalid arguments 
Your creatures also need a snowton of experience to get those precious additional skills. And the higher the creature's tier, the harder it gets its levels.
I just don't get the idea of freshly trained yellowhorns killing battle-hardened veterans just because they are more. And hero is not the only one who does battles...
In H6 creatures became cannon fodder, especially for both blood and magic oriented heroes... This game is also about the creatures and so, creatures should gain more subjectivity in my opinion.
@Sal, @kayna - couldn't agree more. And, in the end, I strongly remind about my other topic:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40476
Everybody WOULD BE HAPPY if this thing would be introduced to HVII. S-g could just switch creature experience off, and we - on 
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 05:34 PM |
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Edited by Sal at 17:43, 18 Aug 2014.
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Storm-Giant said:
And about that 1 creature hero...yeah, try that in multiplayer, heh.
This is what we did, both in ToH and Isle leagues. Getting Armageddon then cleaning map with one phoenix/ Or same thing hit&run the opponent. So yes, I tried. Have you? 
Every heroes game had its exploits. The bad thing is that, instead of fixing what people complained about, each sequel adds or changes radically things, thus increasing the list of things to chill about. Business.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 18, 2014 05:55 PM |
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Sal said:
Storm-Giant said:
And about that 1 creature hero...yeah, try that in multiplayer, heh.
This is what we did, both in ToH and Isle leagues. Getting Armageddon then cleaning map with one phoenix/ Or same thing hit&run the opponent. So yes, I tried. Have you?
I should have been more specific in my answer. Yes, Phoenix+armageddon can happen...but that's just a exploit from a 15 year old game. A very specific exploit that it would be incredibly difficult to happen this days (in a recently released Heroes).
Justifying Creature experience just because this kind of exploits exists in older games feels...dumb to me.
Sal said:
Sg, you construct your argument on the idea that only one hero with small army will have experience, how that is possible? If everyone has access to experience ranks, we can't talk about imbalance. A hero with small experienced army will not get any advantage. It will still be a small army, unable to win vs bigger army with same experience. Captain Obvious I'm.
And I don't think I've ever mentioned balanced, at least not in this sense.
The problem is that it destroys the meaning of economy in HoM&M. And that creates problems...
Sal said:
My argument is not "experience for the sake of". Creatures experience (while not changing at all the balance as equally shared) allows unlocking combat features, and this is where it matters. Having same creature be able to behave in 12 different ways, this is what we can call variety.
Yes, but considering the problems it creates to the economy, I'll rather seek for new abilities and stuff for the creatures through the hero. Something that JJ has proposed in the recent past.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 06:16 PM |
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Well, I see you are grabbed teeth and nails to this idea of broken economy, while there is nothing to back it, is just your imagination. The only argument is that you don't like the idea, that's all.
While I can give several examples of wog concepts where economy marry perfectly to creatures experience. So not only I like the idea, but I know it can work.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 18, 2014 06:46 PM |
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Hardened-experienced troops means you don't need to recruit as many creatures as you normally do because the ones you own are already strong enough, so you have more resources than you are intended to have at a certain stage of the game?
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 07:16 PM |
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Edited by Lesij at 19:19, 18 Aug 2014.
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@S-g: seriously >_> With each and every of your posts you show more and more that you haven't played any of that stack-experinece-gain games...
You still buy creatures, because... Well... Those well experienced... They do die sometimes as every other creature and you would gamble a lot staying with your army of veterans to the bitter end. Please - install wog, play at least one game with this option on and CHECK FOR YOURSELF if ANY of that you write here really occur...
Now that is just really exhausting discussion when I and Sal tell you that nothing of what you write applies and in reply, you write it does apply... Because you said so
Play, see for yourself, post again after the game, with real arguments not theories created on the spur of the moment. Have fun!
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 07:30 PM |
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I don't know about other games, but in wog experience does not immediately grant your creatures immortality. As everyone around, neutrals and AI players, get same experience or probably even more (they need cheats as in every game), there is no such cap "I have enough experienced units".
You always need more to face stronger and stronger opposition so you keep recruiting.
Experience ranks do not really change the game, just adds more depth to it, some will like, others not, that's a matter of taste.
But saying it can't work is not true and I am not really impressed by theories saying so. I built several wog mods based on economy/experience at the very core of each, so I know it can be really interesting.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 08:51 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Hardened-experienced troops means you don't need to recruit as many creatures as you normally do because the ones you own are already strong enough, so you have more resources than you are intended to have at a certain stage of the game?
Spells my friend, spells do in experienced creatures as well as inexperienced ones, and perhaps even better because stacks only gain health quite slowly. Also, creatures only gain experience from battles, nothing else, so having high level creatures with many experience levels is actually quite rare.
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