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| Thread: Are the Towns Balanced at All? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted April 04, 2002 04:19 AM |
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Yeah, if you can get the creature portal early, then preserve seems good  .
My best two so far are life and order, like most people have been saying. My best combo so far for Academy is:
L2 - Gold Golem (if you get 60+ of the magi, their magic fist and poison can seriously kick ass... unfortunately they only have 15 HP, and they die really too easily... so going golems here... of course early on, magi are much, much better)
L3 - I went with nagas the first time with order, and it worked out really well since i got teleport, and nagas have no retal... however, i had them long before i was able to learn teleport (a level 4 order spell means i need master order magic)
so i think genies are better simply because of decent stats, and spells, and speed... nagas take forever to get across the battlefield w/out teleport/speed.
L4 - this one was easy... dragon golems. They are very fast across the battlefield, and they are mechanical (immune to a lot of spells), have first strike, and have negate first strike, so they ALWAYS strike first . They also simply have good stats.
for Haven...
L2 - This was also easy... pikemen. Their my favorite L2 so far, their reaching attack ability is awesome, as they cant be retaliated against. They also have great stats, and dont need speed since they are only protecting range units.
L3 - Monk. Crusaders... IMO suck. Monks... IMO are unbelievable shooters. Obviously cyclops are better, but ill take a monk whenever i can get one, with their great stats.
L4 - I havent even gotten Champions yet. I know they have more growth than angels, but Angels are really good.
Great speed, stats, and their ressurecting ability is very good this time around. I sieged a Haven with my Order army, and their were 54 monks (!) and 10 angels, and other troops. I killed an entire 30 monks, and then the angels shocked me by using their turn to resurrect ALL 30...
Luckily, i won because i had 30 dragon golems :-P, but that definitely impressed me, that resurrecting of the 30 monks.
Well, back to Heroes 4!
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My Site
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2002 09:16 AM |
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I like Asylum so far...
I find it really hard with any other town besides Asylum to build L4 before the 2nd month. Starting with bandits and easy to upgrade stealth+pathfinding heroes lets you get a whole lot of resources very fast as you can sneak through all L1's right away, and a couple levelups later your stealth hero ignores below advanced scout hero and L3's. You can always get the mine resources for the L4 build, just that 14,000 gold for Bdragons can be a problem month one, especially since you can't get a nobility hero usually. Just sell resources and absolutely first 3 days go for the money upgrades. I'm playing on advanced so far, and any other town besides Asylum I never get L4 before sometime 2nd month. Especially with the wandering creatures now, just waiting the first week to grab more then your wood and ore slows you a hell of alot.
Other town I think is very strong is Life- just their protection magic is so good, and Pikemen, Monk, Angel combo with 2 good heroes, plus a 3rd nobility hero increasing growth rates and gold/ mine income. Hard to beat.
I think in long games Asylum not as good, but for these small type maps, I can't see them losing since you can attack opponent week 2 almost always, and since they've got L3 in week 2 even on advanced levels always... not sure who could beat them that early. I don't see people buying castles and stuff until they need to for L4 since it isn't enough protection compared to getting more creatures. Bandit, Medusa, Efreeti with first strike spell on them from a minor level 4-5 chaos hero really kick ass week 2-3.
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2002 02:01 AM |
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Revived!@
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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HappyPike
Known Hero
Pikeman
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posted June 23, 2002 02:15 AM |
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So I guess the general consensu is the towns are quiet balance, because each town has 1 or more killer units or killer magic/skill.
Let's just leave it at that for now. Multiplayer is the best way to see which town is more powerful.
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Also a Civilization fanatic:
http://www.civfanatics.com || forums
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted June 25, 2002 04:44 PM |
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I have had a little time to play some different towns now and I think they must be balanced pretty well. My feelings so far:
Haven: good first levels, good shooters, ressurection skill
Might: good creatures, good heroes
Nature: quicksand, summoning spells
Order: powerfull, but hard for me to start with, too many early losses
Chaos: haven't played much, but I like thieves (turn to rangers) and dragons. I guess I am not much on direct damage spells
Death: have hardly played at all (saving the best for last?)
One thing I learned the hard way, in my experience imps always drain mana from angels first and there goes the ressurection spell...
a decent ranger with a few boosters can do some major damage, and you can get exp for sneaking up on creatures, then get more from killing them.
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted June 25, 2002 05:04 PM |
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Here's another one for Asylum...
As I've mentioned many other times on this board, I have played with an Asylum army and then with armies of other alignments, all of comparative strength. With their direct damage spells, the Chaos army always ends up losing less creatures.
I have found Life to be rather weak; the only redeeming feature about them being spells like Bless, Heal, and some of their armor spells: Guardian Angel, Heavenly shield, etc.
Death can be powerful if played right. What I find frustrating, however, is the way that some of their spells are almost, almost like Chaos Magic spells, but not quite.
Nature I have found to take a rather hefty amount of resources, if you plan on going for the Griffins. Overall, though, they're powerful, especially when you get the Water Elementals from the Creature Portal (Ice Bolt: 1,000 damage!). Some of the Nature spells, though, seem to copy Chaos...
Order turned out to be much more powerful than I ever expected. With their illusion spells and Ice bolt, cast respectively by a Hero and a Genie, they make a powerful enemy.
Might also turned out more powerful than I expected. Don't get me wrong; their lack of magic still hinders them greatly, however. I find myself using a lot more potions with them than with any other alignment.
In conclusion, I will say that the game is unbalanced after all because BLACK DRAGONS AND CHAOS MAGIC KILL ALL!!!!
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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DarkManiac
Known Hero
of Hell
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posted June 25, 2002 07:36 PM |
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I found that all towns are very well balanced with only stronhold a bit weaker (Breeding Pit should be much cheaper).
Haven:
+ Three good shooters. Some good support spells.
- Not the best spells.
Preserve:
+ Summoning skill might be good sometimes. Good spells which not only include summoning but also good support (Giant/Dragon Strenght is awesome). Creature Portal adds another good unit. Some summoning spells are good too (Air elementals are tanks).
- Weaker than other units.
Necropolis:
+ Vampires...GM necromancy. A few good spells.
- Only few good spells. Vampires can be countered with elementals and machines.
Academy:
+ Genies are very powerful. Order spells are really good. Mages can kick ass in the beggining. Golems are real tanks.
- Dwarves are weak. If the magic hero is killed things might get ugly.
Asylum:
+ Most powerful direct damage spells. Other good spells, Expensive but very powerful black dragons. Very good level2: medusas and minotaurs. Efreets and nightmares also powerful.
- Expensive.
Stronhold:
+ Strongest units (not best). Cyclops are very good. Huge numbers (with breeding pit). Magic damperers.
- No magic. Units lack strategic capabilities (like genies, vampires...). Of course they're powerful but nothing else...
I find all castles very well balanced and think that devs made a really good job here. If not for the bugs...
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A villain's gotta do what a villain's gotta do.
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted June 27, 2002 07:50 PM |
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Quote:
I really hope they are balanced. All town are strong at the end, but from my limited experience I find necro to be the only town that is strong in the begining also. Genies are good, but they require a treasury, which costs 6k gold. This is a lot when your income is 500 per day initially. Unless you play on normal (and I won't ever play on normal and have the AI be even more stupid than it normally is) or impossible necro seems to have the best start with vamps easy to get.
I am sorry, but you don't need a Treasure to build genies. You only need it to build nagas.
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Sorry for my bad english...
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nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted June 28, 2002 04:58 PM |
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to the Heroes Community. I'm not new to the HOMM series though. I would consider myself quite good at H3. When playing H4, things that bothered me from the start were the fact that the random map creator had been removed, the memory leak, the missing combat grid and the missing event scroll-down box. The game's still great, and once all the problems will be fixed, it will be even better. Now, after several hundreds of hours of play, the things that bother me most are the incredible balance issues. Almost every town has overpowered creatures or spells, the H3 balance is gone. Time to spit my heart out.
1. Order: As a fan of the former tower, this was one of the first towns I played. Most creatures are ok, some better, some not so good, but then I discovered the true power of genies. Okay, they're rather low on health but their spellbook is insane. Large quantities of these blue girls can create huge stacks of illusions in just a matter of turns, plus deal a (much too?) high amount of direct magical damage with ice bolt. One or two smaller groups of them can effectively nullify the actions of two enemy troops by using song of peace all the time! Slow is another spell in their repertoire that can be particulary devastating. Unfortunately, this is not the only unbalanced thing about order. Hypnotize, ha! Is this a joke? They've removed dimension door, town portal and fly, which is good. And then they add a spell like this. Spells like Hypnotize and Berserk are so extreme, I think they need to be toned down heavily! Playing agains AI order is not a problem, but imagine a human opponent hypnotizing your three most powerful units (including heroes) constantly and song of peacing your other units, while his/her titans finish off the rest of your army. How much fun is that?
2. Death: I keep reading posts of people complaining about how bad the necropolis has become. Nothing is further from the truth. In H3, my favorite town lacked a powerful l7 creature to succeed in XL maps so you needed to put some differently aligned creatures in your army with unfortunate consequences for their morale. In H4 still, the lower level creatures are only good as cannon fodder and still the damage range of all creatures is rather wide. But look at the level 3 and 4 creatures. Vamps. Gotta love'em, they're so damn mean, hehe! You get them for free post combat, you can make them in the skeleton transformer when l4 creatures join (charm, diplomacy, ...), but most of all, they never decrease in numbers when played well. 400-500 vampires in my main army is not an exception. It's unwise to have an army with only vampires in it, I found out soon enough. But I'm pretty sure though that most human opponents will be that terrified by the idea of 500 vamps, that they will waste all their firepower on the vamps and neglect the rest of my army. Such massive amounts of l3 creatures are impossible to obtain in any other town. It's fun, but disrupts game balance. Venom spawns, when I obtain a second or third Necropolis in a map, I often pick these. They're not power lich, haha, they're even better, and using sacrifice on your imps or so every now you don't lose too many of your spawns either. Devils are, according to me, weaker than bone dragons. Their ability to summon ice demons is cool. Their major, crazy, imbalanced side is their teleporting movement. There's no stopping devils. Needs to be fixed, this is just way too powerful! Bone dragons, no really, a l4 no enemy retaliation monster? Foes running away in the direction you want? Top level necropolis creatures rule!!! As if that wouldn't be enough, death magic is (along with order perhaps) the most powerful kind of magic in my experience. Mass weakness, mass curse, mass cancellation, plague, fatigue, disrupting ray. These may not be major spells, but they decrepify armies way stronger than yours and allows you to beat them. Vampiric touch... devils, bone dragons anyone? Aura of fear on devils, hmm not bad. True resurrection removed from the game, no problem, now there's sacrifice on steroids. And finally Hand of Death, implosion for the necropolis, yeeha! Compared to chaos, nature and life magic, death magic rocks!
3. Chaos: Every town seems to have some problems in their creature ranks (no ranged attackers or spellcasters, low health, slow speed, low growth rate), except the chaos town. Medusa's are fantastic, efreet and nightmares are great and dragons totally rule the game. No big balance issues here, except for the BD perhaps. Magical immunity is rather powerful in H4, much more even than in H3, but for a 8000Gp creature, it's acceptable.
4. Nature: Like chaos, no big balance problems here. Fearie dragons do too much damage and confuse is very powerful as well. I have little experience playing with or against them so time will tell if they're overpowered or not. They're worthless against magically resistant creatures on the other hand, so that's a major weakness.
5. Life: The offspring of the castle comes out pretty balanced, in my opinion. It's focused on beating death armies quite a lot. The charm spells are a bit over the top, all the rest is reasonable.
6. Might: No magic at all is a serious handicap, 50% more creatures is a lot, but is it enough to cover up for their deficit? I don't know yet, but I doubt it. Great creatures though. Nomads, cyclops and thunderbirds are all elite soldiers and the magic damperer will also help might troops. But again, magic is more important now than in previous heroes versions, not having it is missing out on half of the available power of the game.
Order and Death rule, combined they may even be unbeatable. What has happened to heroes 4? True multiplayer will point out whether I'm right about the balance problems, but I suspect that they will have to tone down a lot of things. Everything in the game looks and is great. Unfortunately, they released the game much too early and without descent balance testing.
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~Vegetables don't spam~
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2002 10:05 PM |
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Two things I've found too powerful are Hypnotize and Vampires. Genies aren't too powerful when we consider that Song of Peace is a line of sight spell. Nature has Faerie Dragons (throw Fireball to divided stack of Genies and see how there are only one stack of genies left, divide Faerie Dragons for several Confusions), Chaos (Black Dragons are immune to magic, Nightmares' have terror), Haven (casts Sanctuary and wait until opponent drops out from the game, lol), Death (Undead units are immune to most mind affecting spells) and Might (Cyclop's area damage, shield and divide them well and the opponent can say his goodbyes to divided genies).
Sure Order Magic has other nasty spells than Hypnotize like Town Gate (cast during combat), Teleport (no LoS and resistance doesn't affect), Mass Slow and Berserk (not nearly as effective as Hypnotize but should be LoS spell), but none of them are nothing compared to our three rounds lasting Hypnize that doesn't even require Line of Sight. Cast Hypnotize on opponents Devils and then Martyrize them to provide some extra slaughter and protection. I suggest that duration of Hypnotize should be reduced to one round and that it is also LoS spell and that most of the other Order spells will also become LoS spells..
Vampires, I don't see nothing wrong that their dwelling is so easy to get or that you can get them via Necromancy, but throw in their excellent attack and defense stats 30 of each and they are too invulnerable. I suggest two ways to handle with this, one is easy and quick for developers to do and another is more complicated and will take some time but the fans would be pleased. The first, the easy one is to drop the attack and defense stats of Vampires to 20. In large number they will continue to be menacing but aren't so invincible in early game anymore. The second, the more complicated way is to make a requirement(s) for their dwelling (like Undead Transformer) and to change the Necromancy to bring in Liches instead of Vampires. The latter will include a totally new unit into the game. I suggest that Liches were spell casters who specialize in curse spells and don't have attack penalty but are also bit fragile.
Then there comes Sanctuary. If you haven't yet heard of Sanctuary + Plague, you will heard now. Although rare combo, having both of them will ensure almost certain victory. I suggest that Sanctuary has a time limit of three rounds.
I also think that creatures that aren't bad but will still never be picked because their counterpart is too good should be improved. And with that I meant Ogre Magi and Nagas mainly. I suggest an improvement speed and movement for Nagas and maybe a light boost to their stats and that they do fixed damage like before. For Ogre Magi, I suggest that Bloodlust is replaced with Bloodfrenzy and that they can cast Give Resistance, that will give the creature they casted the spell 30-50% magic resistance.
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nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted June 29, 2002 11:04 AM |
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Yeah, I've heard about the sanctuary + plague combo, painfully boring but quite effective indeed. You need to have life an death magic skills for your hero in order to cast both spells though. I don't like picking these two together, does life magic add really a lot to the death magic repertoire? You're right off course, the combo is way too powerful. Sanctuary should last only a couple of turns. Same for hypnotise, one turn, no more, no less.
Vamps are too powerful, 10 or so is usually enough to take goldmines or great artifacts. Making it much more difficult to build the mansion is a good idea, that way necropolis players get their vampires later and don't have such a kick start. Let's say you need a citadel or castle to be able to construct the mansion, that would already change a lot - no more vamps on day 3.
Early in the game already, I realized that I never picked several types of creatures. Minotaurs, hydras, ogre magi, nagas, ... The other choice is way better, these need to be improved. Why not give the minotaurs max positive morale, hydras casting disrupting ray sometimes upon attack and make them faster, ogre magi - yeah your suggestions are good, nagas - perhaps an occasional second attack happening every now and then. The whole point in the creature type selection in the towns is to add more diversity to the game but in some cases there isn't a real choice.
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~Vegetables don't spam~
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nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted July 01, 2002 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
Early in the game already, I realized that I never picked several types of creatures. Minotaurs, hydras, ogre magi, nagas, ... The other choice is way better, these need to be improved. Why not give the minotaurs max positive morale, hydras casting disrupting ray sometimes upon attack and make them faster, ogre magi - yeah your suggestions are good, nagas - perhaps an occasional second attack happening every now and then. The whole point in the creature type selection in the towns is to add more diversity to the game but in some cases there isn't a real choice.
Never mind the part about the hydras in the post above, I just had my army completely pulverized by 'em in my last map. No need at all to make them any stronger than they are right now. Whew, I guess I hadn't seen them in such huge numbers yet. Time to check hydras out myself, doesn't seem such an easy pick after all. BD are great, but now hydras have impressed me a lot.
Another choice I'm having difficulties with is Fearie Dragon or Phoenix. The FD's do massive amounts of damage in large numbers but what about magical resistances, line of sight... Phoenix are cool too, but enemy troops do retaliate against them but they're less shot at by enemy ranged creatures and have rebirth. Any advice? I really think this is a hard choice, would like to have 'em both in fact.
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~Vegetables don't spam~
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DarkManiac
Known Hero
of Hell
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posted July 01, 2002 09:45 PM |
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I noticed some of you saying that some nature and death spells copy chaos BUT... we can also say chaos copies nature and death spells. Am I right or am I right?
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A villain's gotta do what a villain's gotta do.
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Dark_Knight
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 11, 2002 11:32 AM |
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why is the sanctuary + plague combo so rare ?
if your army is undead only you can do plague without being
hurt so why the need for sanctuary ?
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tortoise
Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
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posted August 11, 2002 11:52 AM |
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Vampires are not overpowered!!!! ok, here me out plz. then you can flame, but atleast read this first. If an undead player wants a kickass unstoppable start, then he can get the mansion easily, but if he wants a kick ass final army ? he's going to get venom spawn and get an army of vampires with necromancy, which means a not so kick ass start. Its just a preference. slow and steady , or sprint and hope you don't get tired before the finish.
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All living things have a history. The history of the Tortoise is long and rich.
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Styky
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 11, 2002 04:35 PM |
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Asylum
I think Asylum is the best town and chaos magic rules. The creature are.. wow(I play with 2 heroes: a fire diviner and a field marshall, orcs, medusas, nightmares and black dragons and I it consider a strong army). I don't think Necropolis is so amazing. When the multiplayer feature will be available I'd like to fight with Asylum against Necropolis. As for the balance.. they're almost ok. Only the number of the creatures and the hero abilities will make the diferences. This is my opinion for the towns: 1. Asylum; 2. Academy; 3. Haven; 4. Necropolis; 5. Stronghold; 6. Preserve.
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Never hesitate 2 put some heroes on their back.
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Darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted August 11, 2002 05:46 PM |
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picking life and death magic together is only handy when you pick a necromancer and take the demon buildingpath in your castle, since the undead are not affected by life spells most of the time. (I don't think you can bless, heal,... them)
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted January 28, 2006 07:52 PM |
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My opinions:
Best fraction list:
1. Necropolis (Death)
2. Stronghold (Might/Neutral)
3. Alysum (Chaos)
4. Acardemy (Order)
5. Haven (Live)
6. Perseve (Nature)
1. Necropolis:
Ceberi-Venom spawn-Devil
King Galdouth's armies is superior to all the others! (And that's most connected to the kreegans) In Heroes III kreegans where decent, but expensive. Here they are resonable cheap and superb. Skeletons are weak and slow (typical undead) but Imps are very fast. They speed does them to exelent scouts who can explore half of the map day 3. That dosen't say that imps are weak in combat, they are petty strong for a Level 1 creature.
Creberi are supeiror to ghosts because of their no-relation and three-headed attack.
Vampires are decent, but venom spawn are the best level 3 unit in the game. It has 100 hp, a ranged poison atack, a very high attack rating. Plus they are necropolis only ranged attacker. Vampires live drain speciality aren't so good as it sounds, just a few vampires is gained back and you can still raise them whit necromancy. But i shoulden't recomend waisting experience on necromancy, they are many better skills to build up.
The Devils totaly outshine the patetic bone dragons, they can teleport and summon ice demons. That is better than the weak terror ability!
Heroes: Death knights should be choosen first, because you always need the tactics skill. I however think that a necromancer always should be inclouded along whit the death knigth. And death magic is the best magic in the game.
2. Stronghold:
AAAhhh... Migth! No patetic magic! The musik is perfect, I can realy feel the barbarian viking blood in my blood vessels!
Anyway, migth area very strong fraction. Berserkers are good, but you can't control them. Centaurs: best lvl. 1 unit in the game! And then, normands or harpies! They are both good, but I mostly take normands because of their speed and that caravan is better than a cittadel!
I'm very unceratin whit orge magi and cyclopes. Cyclopes are of course better but just image what an horde of orge magi you can get whit grandmaster nobility, beeding pits and festival of fire! thats a thoght chooise!
Tunderbirds are however supeiror to benomoths. Their high grown rate is fantastic and their ligthing attack! WOW!!! They has always been my Level 4 chooise for stronghold!
Heroes: The barbarian is the best staeting hero in the game! (besides death knigth) Devlop magic resistance but also tactics and nobility and he will be totaly unstopebarle!
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Evil_Warrior
Famous Hero
Duke of Demon
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posted January 29, 2006 10:23 AM |
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No! Chaos has the most powerful creature. Life's troops are WEAK. Might doesn't have magic.
Homm3 is more balanced
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LordZXZX
Famous Hero
Overfished
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posted February 06, 2006 04:27 AM |
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3 words make Order the most imba town: Genies, Teleport, and Hypnotize
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