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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2014 10:31 AM |
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 10:41 AM |
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VW material, considering the quality of the article. Complete garbage, propaganda + twisted and biased interpretations of Russia acts.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 31, 2014 10:42 AM |
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This article is one of the greatest bull****s that I've read recently, you can safely ignore it entirely.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 10:43 AM |
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More like propaganda.
Seconded on VW material.
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2014 10:54 AM |
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Well, I hope you are right ...
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 11:09 AM |
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i just read something similar here.
propaganda, or not? it has ukrainian links, so the information may be one-sided.
looks to me, overall, that anything can become of this. all propaganda aside. people ARE irrational. just HOW irrational... well, i think history has shown just HOW irrational they can be...
at this point, i think all it takes, is one good(bad) mistake.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted August 31, 2014 11:12 AM |
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Putin likes to posture. He's made inflammatory statements before that seem to imply he's not afraid to back up his statements with violence. Nothing earth shattering has happened so far though, apart from some frozen conflicts on Russia's borders so far.
Calling Ukraine new Russia is funny, though, akin to the UK's prime minister, referring to the US of America as "the colonies." But Ukraine is a bit of a strange country in the Russian language. It literally means something like "the border land," so calling it different things isn't as strange as it is in the English context. It's not as scary as this reporter is making it sound, though. I highly doubt Putin wants to provide Lebensraum for his Russian people or something like that. 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 31, 2014 11:21 AM |
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The author is Poland's foreign minister's wife. One can just as successfully post an interview with Sergey Lavrov where he says that Russia doesn't help the separatists and everything which it has done so far is in accordance with the international law. In both cases you would be reading propaganda crap.
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 11:37 AM |
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i wouldn't trust anything coming from the washington post to NOT be propaganda.
i mean, like, that's akin to "nazi" newspapers telling unbiased stories, isn't it?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 12:17 PM |
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definitely WV material.
same as with that mh-17 flight.
at first "rooskies did it".
now it's becoming clearer that the junta obeying retards shot it down.
besides, the black box recordings were never made public.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 05:18 PM |
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kipshasz said:
besides, the black box recordings were never made public.
why would they be? that might answer too many questions. or maybe, disregard each nations' carefully presented propaganda. you can't keep the masses INFORMED. heavens no. then they're DANGEROUS.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 31, 2014 05:50 PM |
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The current scenario is uncharted territory. Nobody knows what would happen if you start conventional warfare between two factions that both have nuclear capabilities. It has never happened before. Would they just fight each other and neither side ever take it to the nuclear level because they know it's suicide?
No: I don't think it's hysterical to conceive, given that the current Russian leadership is a textbook belligerent demagogue. Putin sees many distractions in the world right now outside of E Europe. He sees an uncommitted US & Europe with a majority of the public that is unfavorable with interventionalism (much of the situation is unique, but that much parallels the world in post-WW1). Like most other young adults, this was my own opinion up until 2 years ago when I retraced my worldview to its logical conclusion. Putin also sees that the two rising Asian giants would be even less likely to act. He and his circle - who have expansionist aspirations - are stewing to themselves "What if we literally just expand the old fashioned way? Will anything really happen? Would the sanctions be worth it?"
This isn't something any Russian leader would have dared to conceive as late as the 1990s, other than in proxy nations without nuclear technology, because almost the entire world was zealously committed to an uncrossable red line. The political & cultural climate has become greatly fatigued since then.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 05:52 PM |
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fred79 said:
kipshasz said:
besides, the black box recordings were never made public.
why would they be? that might answer too many questions. or maybe, disregard each nations' carefully presented propaganda. you can't keep the masses INFORMED. heavens no. then they're DANGEROUS.
true that.
I wonder where's Ihor as of late.
probably went first in line as the junta mobilised Ukraine's people to fight Ukraine's people.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 31, 2014 06:14 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
No: I don't think it's hysterical to conceive, given that the current Russian leadership is a textbook belligerent demagogue. Putin sees many distractions in the world right now outside of E Europe. He sees an uncommitted US & Europe with a majority of the public that is unfavorable with interventionalism (much of the situation is unique, but that much parallels the world in post-WW1). This was my own opinion up until 2 years ago when I retraced my worldview to its logical conclusion. He sees that the two rising Asian giants would be even less likely to act. He and his circle - who have expansionist aspirations - are stewing to themselves "What if we literally just expand the old fashioned way? Will anything really happen? Would the sanctions be worth it?"
I sometimes wonder how can a seemingly intelligent person fall for such low-end nonsense as that article, even take it seriously for just one moment. You guys on the other side of the Big Water really seem to live with the Cold War mentality, 25 years later. It is high time that you drop that crap, really. "Russia evil, Kremlin bad, they nuke us all!". Hide under the bed then.
No, there is no hysteria in the article, there is just play old propaganda aimed at the susceptible souls, which seem to be in generous supply (including in Europe, mostly the Western part). Russia has one long-term aim in this thing - to stop NATO's expansion toward its borders. That's the thing from day 1, period. NATO tries to expand toward the Russian borders from all sides for years. Some Ukrainians who don't exactly like Russia or are just sold, aided by foreign governments, staged a pseudo-revolution to overthrow the pro-Russian president and put pro-Western elements on his place. A big chunk of the population welcomed that because the former president was a major scum and now believe that the current government works in Ukraine's best interests while in fact it's composed of installed puppets who have already declared that Ukraine will join NATO at some point. Putin and friends don't like that. If you put yourself in his shoes for 1 second and think "Why the hell should I allow a potentially hostile military organization to put bases all around my country's borders", you might find yourself viewing the whole situation in a different light. Try it. It's not necessary to make a geopolitical analysis of the post Cold War ages, even to be informed about what's happening in Eastern Europe (which I have no doubts that you are not), just ask yourself simple questions and give them reasonable answers.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 31, 2014 06:31 PM |
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Your view is false because your premises are false. Seizing control of territory is expansion. Nations voluntarily joining international organizations such as the EU or NATO is called persuasion and negotiation by nearly everybody in the world outside of the ex-CCCP. You have no claim to say that Russia's expansion is a defensive counter to NATO's expansion, because the NATO expansion that you speak of is a fiction.
If Russia doesn't desire military forces on its borders - which it shouldn't - then perhaps it should start asking more mature questions, such as "Why are our former republics becoming increasingly favorable towards their western neighbors?" Is it a coincidence that these proposed missile shields are being erected towards Russia rather than, say, Portugal or Sweden? Why aren't we sanctioning Belgium? Belgium knocked my country out of the World Cup. Let's commercially strangle them into poverty and destitution, so that the have to migrate to the US and become our maids and manservants. Glorious revenge.
Instead, might we dare to consider that maybe there are entirely understandable reasons why Russia in particular is allegedly being picked on? But Russia doesn't ask those questions, or at least, its leadership doesn't, because it's behaving like a prideful schoolboy that abides by the creed "Never admit a mistake". Nevermind Western Europe and the United States for a minute, even though my opinion is just as valuable as yours. The shifting opinions in Eastern European nations are by far the most damning, because they're the ones that are the most immediately affected by Russian policy.
Russia seizes control of Crimea, therefore Russia is belligerent. That isn't Cold War mentality. That is Occam's Razor.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 06:36 PM |
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I doubt the amount of propaganda in western press is larger than what we have here. we have entire media channels dedicated to this not to mention idiots in Facebook and such.
for about 24 years, since we flipped off the commies, the rooskie was attacking us day and bleeping night.
In here random people and politicians had made some rather nice statements about what we should do Here's a few:
one bloke I met while taking a marshrutka suggested we start killing off entire russian minority. and he wasn't like your thug type no. a nice haircut, a suit and everything. even a genuine fake rolex.
a retard of a party which supposed to represent our resident polaks and tuteishi dropped a hell of a suggestion for NATO to bomb the absolute crap out of Kiev in hopes to end this junta initiated genocide. or "russian agression" as they put it. bleh.
what some will say: "Wait a minute, there are rooskie troops marching there!".
Well, tell me old chaps, how do you know for sure? Neither do I. There is no way to tell for sure just from the diarrhea the media vomits out daily. are any of us stupid enough to go there and find out for themselves? I think not.
like in Syria, there are a crapload of mercs in both sides. even some Lithuanian dickheads fight in the junta's side. I live nearby a military firing range, and the activity is increasing daily. One day the bleepers were firing their out dated artillery, thank Jesus, Buddha and Allah no windows shattered.
Bearded blokes in desert camo is running amok with their land rovers and unimogs. From what I know only special forces are allowed to be bearded. and their motherbleeping faces don't look Lithuanian at all, despite wearing our uniforms.
The way I see it the biggest culprits for this ongoing mass hysteria is former soviet countries who now are the main cocksuckers for the US and NATO, more specifically Lithuanian and Polish politicians.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 06:37 PM |
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Wow. Someone actually fell for that cheap bullcrap. It's... beyond imagination... To think that such lowbrow propaganda actually works...
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 06:40 PM |
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Isn't it indicative that only American HC-ers seem to be annoyed by? OP is about a possible Europe-Russia war but as show by all the previous posts, Europeans give a snow about. And on purpose.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:01 PM |
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Exactly. That means that we at least have a clue on the issue.
You on the other hand are an A-ME-RI-CAN. In my book that means your point of view is 0 by default, and NOT because of racism but because of your HISTORY. You come here and tell us about Russia being belligerent? YOU? YOU?!?!?! Do You want me to LIST you the last wars YOU've been to? HUH? Syria? Afgan? Libya? Iraq?
YOU COME HERE AND PREACH TO US? US THAT WE'RE LIVING HERE? YOU??!!
If I were you I'd shut my freaking face off and return to polishing my nuts!
/spit/
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 31, 2014 07:09 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
Your view is false because your premises are false. Seizing control of territory is expansion. Nations voluntarily joining international organizations such as the EU or NATO is called persuasion and negotiation by nearly everybody in the world outside of the ex-CCCP. You have no claim to say that Russia's expansion is a defensive counter to NATO's expansion, because the NATO expansion that you speak of is a fiction.
If Russia doesn't desire military forces on its borders - which it shouldn't - then perhaps it should start asking more mature questions, such as "Why are our former republics becoming increasingly favorable towards its western neighbors?" Is it a coincidence that these proposed missile shields are being erected towards Russia rather than, say, Portugal or Sweden. Might we dare to consider that maybe there are entirely understandable reasons why Russia in particular is supposedly being picked on? But Russia doesn't ask those questions, or at least, its leadership doesn't, because it's behaving like a prideful schoolboy that abides by the creed "Never admit a mistake". Nevermind Western Europe and the United States for a minute, even though my opinion is just as valuable as yours. The shifting opinions in Eastern European nations are by far the most damning, because they're the ones that are the most immediately affected by Russian policy.
Russia seizes control of Crimea, therefore Russia is belligerent. That isn't Cold War mentality. That is Occam's Razor.
When I tell you that you don't know nothing, I mean exactly things like the above. You are just not informed and you draw conclusions from concepts, not facts. There isn't really any point in arguing with that but I'll try once.
First, there is no voluntary join. There is propaganda, then the governments of the countries sign treaties to join NATO, then everything turns into a post factum story. I mentioned in the dedicated Ukrainian thread but I suppose I have to mention it here as well - in Bulgaria's case there was absolutely no form of social vote whether we should join NATO or not, we just had a few governments on Western funding who signed the documents and one day - good morning, you are now NATO members, rejoice. If there was such a vote, we would still be outside of the alliance, trust me on that. Nobody knows why exactly we need to be NATO members from national point of view, trust me on that too. The plan was (and still is) the same in Ukraine. Now it is probably easier to execute because Russia is the big monster that wants to eat the country but exactly because of that the big monster finds itself in an even greater need to eat the country to save itself.
Then, how exactly is the expansion a fiction? I suppose you can check the map for yourself, there's one in Wikipedia which even uses colour changes throughout the years. Here, I will link it for you. See any patterns? No? If not, then you also probably believe that Poland builds missile defenses against Iran. US missile defenses of course. Seriously, it doesn't take political education to spot things which are that obvious.
And finally - putting the entire blame on Russia is what the propaganda tries to achieve and obviously succeeds in. There isn't a single event in human history which is one man or one nation's fault, there are always other factors. Even without that general presumption, how exactly do you explain the presence of CIA in Ukraine ever since the Maidan events (and quite certainly before them, but of course that's not media stuff)? That's confirmed, you know. By Western sources. This confirmation aside, there was one completely official visit of the CIA chief in Kiev shortly after the interim government took power. In every "normal" scenario that would have caused a diplomatic outrage but at that time Russia was busy with its Crimean plans - which are a result of the whole mess, not an evil design which had been under construction for years.
Really, you don't even seem to grasp the basics of the whole **** that has been created in Ukraine and in Europe on broader scale. I'm not expecting you to know anything different from what your media throws at you, but I think you can use your brain for something more than theorizing around vague, one-sided ideas.
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