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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 02:30 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:34, 04 Apr 2015.
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verriker said:
jeez, I don't know why some of you guys get yourselves so angry and frustrated over my posts, after all they're just opinions
by all means, more power to those of you who do enjoy Ashan, you should be enjoying its time in the limelight while it lasts lol
well it lasts longer than it should when people keep feeling it's their game and they can interfere with the looks of creatures and other trivial stuff like that.
i enjoy ashan and im seeing it getting prolonged and hodge-podged with heroes 3 aesthetics for no reason.it's a lose-lose situation.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 02:36 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
i enjoy ashan and im seeing it getting prolonged and hodge-podged with heroes 3 aesthetics for no reason.it's a lose-lose situation.
I actually agree there, the weird compromise they're trying to achieve by copy pasting in popular stuff from Enroth is not something I asked for, and I don't think it satisfies too many other people either lol
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 02:45 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:47, 04 Apr 2015.
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verriker said:
ChrisD1 said:
i enjoy ashan and im seeing it getting prolonged and hodge-podged with heroes 3 aesthetics for no reason.it's a lose-lose situation.
I actually agree there, the weird compromise they're trying to achieve by copy pasting in popular stuff from Enroth is not something I asked for, and I don't think it satisfies too many other people either lol
wait till you see the oh so famous blood monster. that will be a good surprise for all those who think it would bring the spirit of heroes 3 back in necropolis...
and to think they gave us choices to not copy paste enroth in ashan.hahaha!
it was clear that a heroes 3 remake wouldn't happen but....
and then the ashan lore is to blame. with all those beastmen. but we HAD TO HAVE minotaurs for example. another beastman..
ashan lore isnt the problem.
us trying to fit heroes 3 in ashan is the problem. it just doesnt fit. imagine trying to fit a box in sock. wouldnt it destroy the sock and made it look awful? nobody wins people.lol (there is some odd satisfaction to that in the end of the comment i must say).
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Most fans enjoy it though, so I'm pretty sure it's going to continue - I don't even mind it all that much, as long as they don'tactually mix these universes. Because frankly, while you believe Ashan is crap, I'm not sure if I wouldn't describe the Ancient universe in exactly the same way.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Most fans enjoy it though, so I'm pretty sure it's going to continue.
and most fans don't enjoy it, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
there's no proof either way so better to speak for ourselves lol
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 03:12 PM |
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Most people seemed happy about Gnolls or Behemoths, if Shadow Council's comment section is anything to go by. Admittedly, it's not the absolute proof, but it does give me the right idea.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 03:24 PM |
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Certain creatures from Enroth are to me still a staple of HoMM game. Minotaur ... ok maybe not so much, but I do like to have it here. Not to mention Minotaur is a bit overused ... it's part of almost every fantasy game lol.
But even if Ashan would get scraped in favour of another universe. What would that universe be like? ... yes another "wow-like" thing. 90's are gone people. While I agree it's sad in a way, no matter how much you spit against the wind, noone will bring them back.
It's not so much that HoMM has changed. Times have changed. Games have changed, technology have changed, fashion has changed, popular trends have changed ... Ashan is only in line with that change. And Erwan himself has put it quite well in interview with Stevie: "We wanted it to be part of this new (high)fantasy trend, that's why we removed everything that is sci-fi cause we felt it was dated, from the 90's ... We wanted to be 2003+ game..."
2003+ game.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted April 04, 2015 03:30 PM |
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Elvin said:
But what it comes down to is that decisions that divide the community are bad for their community as well as their pockets.
@ Elvin
Since we usually are thinking at least somewhat in the same ballpark what are your thoughts now?
For me the most bothersome thing about H6 was it appeared it was made for MP fans; map-making, rmg and modding were not supported. When I griped about that, then I heard many times from MP players (you might have been one) that the game did not have important MP features.
I prefer H5 over H3 a tad but one thing I've not seen since H4 is all the fan-types were "fairly" well met. <imo> H5 (post TotE)started a trend in the wrong direction; the biggest drawback was 5's Map-editor. Even though I like the testy editor, I understood the dislikes many people had with the learning-curve and the forced scripting etc.
Looking ahead now, <imo> it seems that H7 is going to be a game more about the whole community again? and therefore heading back to true HoMM roots? What do you think?
Personally I think the most innovative thing that UBI could do is refine the richness of 3d and target "elevation" and not just the Adv map but enhance the battlefield too. However, it seems the hot topics are always "looks & lore". With that said, I do fully realize that most of the folks here @ HC do not seem interested in my likes and think it somehow taints the HoMM experience. 
It's kinda funny, I'm likely the oldest dude here and yet I want innovation. So, I'm living proof...you CAN teach an old dog new tricks.
I think it is much harder to teach a young dog, old tricks. 
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"Do your own research"
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 03:55 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Certain creatures from Enroth are to me still a staple of HoMM game. Minotaur ... ok maybe not so much, but I do like to have it here. Not to mention Minotaur is a bit overused ... it's part of almost every fantasy game lol.
certain creatures and factions were successfully transitioned in ashan. behemoths being one of those creatures.
staple is the gameplay itself. the only other game EVER looking like a heroes game is disciples. and if gameplay isn't staple enough, i dont know what is.
the thing is that enroth cannot be mixed with ashan yet people can't get that and continue to ask for that,making a game that neither side will be happy with(visually of course).
i will buy the game because i m a fan of the gameplay.
but i will always cringe with the dungeon line up being a hodge podge mess, and nexropolis' armoured,fabulous blood monster.the previous vampire is 10000x better than smth so unfitting in ashan necropolis' lore.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Certain creatures from Enroth are to me still a staple of HoMM game. Minotaur ... ok maybe not so much, but I do like to have it here. Not to mention Minotaur is a bit overused ... it's part of almost every fantasy game lol.
But even if Ashan would get scraped in favour of another universe. What would that universe be like? ... yes another "wow-like" thing. 90's are gone people. While I agree it's sad in a way, no matter how much you spit against the wind, noone will bring them back.
It's not so much that HoMM has changed. Times have changed. Games have changed, technology have changed, fashion has changed, popular trends have changed ... Ashan is only in line with that change. And Erwan himself has put it quite well in interview with Stevie: "We wanted it to be part of this new (high)fantasy trend, that's why we removed everything that is sci-fi cause we felt it was dated, from the 90's ... We wanted to be 2003+ game..."
2003+ game.
as you said, Erwin decided it was dated, doesn't mean he was objectively right or that copying the flavour of the month at the time was a wise move though (I think it was pretty stupid lol)
Warcraft is not exactly the uncontested giant it once was, so amusingly Ashan is now arguably dated itself as a setting from the last decade, forever tied to the tropes of that rival series,
and one thing that hasn't changed is that this so-called 90s game which established its own sensibilities is still to this day considered "the most popular Heroes® title of all time" lol
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Nuriel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2015 04:21 PM |
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Edited by Nuriel at 16:23, 04 Apr 2015.
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Hello!
I’m the long time lurker, who for ages read many pages about HoMM series such as Age of Heroes, Celestial Heavens, Acidcave and this forum, but never was brave enough to participate (or maybe he thought that his opinion won’t be important or won’t really be valuable to the discussion and so on)  So why post now? Because I was tired of all that Ashan bashing on the HoMM part of internet.
I’m sorry for that wall of text, I’ll try my best to divide its into paragraphs, but I don’t guarantee it was much of success Also, forgive me many grammar and spelling mistakes. English isn’t my native language and I don’t have many occasions to practice it. I would be grateful for any remarks if I make some really awful mistake 
1. Introduction
First things first, I want to say that Heroes of Might and Magic 2 was the first game I’ve ever played on PC. I don’t remember how old I was. Probably ten, maybe eleven, it’s irrelevent. Suffice to say, the HoMM series have became one of my favorites. Especially HoMM 3, whic is my in my humble opinion, personal favourite.
But why I am writing this? Because I want to avert potential accusations of being Ubisoft fanboy and that I’m not “true”, longtime fan of the series etc.
2. Why I don’t like Might and Magic
That is to say, I think that most of you are making one false assumption about fans of NWC HoMM games. It is: “Most of those fans who loved (or even who played) HoMM games also love Might and Magic series.”
That’s not necessarily the case. For example, the games I played after HoMM2 was Fallout and later, Baldur’s Gate. Thanks to that, the only RPGs I play, are those which isometric point of view (thanks to the Bioware I also sway myself to games with TPP view (i.e.: KoTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age).
So, I couldn’t stand those RPGs which have first person perspective view, including all those Morrowinds, Skyrims and, last but not least, Might and Magic series. I just can’t force myself to play them for more than 10 minutes. Especially those titles in which you play as a team. Where is any immersion in that?
3. Shallowness of The Old Universe
Well, what does it really mean? It’s simple.
If I don’t read the Acidcave, I wouldn’t know a damn about the old universe. Excuse me, what information about setting gives me HoMM 1-4, especially first two games?
Absolutely nothing. The universe, what appears to be in HoMM games, doesn’t give any clues about the Ancients, Kreegans and all that science fiction stuff.
NWC setting from Heroes games is just pretty straightforward, standard fantasty setting (except averting classical Dwarves vs Elves trope and splitting Magic users from Medieval Kingdom). Evil Necromancers, Demons and Warlocks, Good Wizards, Knights and Elves.
“Inferno towns can be found in Erathian regions blighted by the emergence of the underworld on surface”. What the hell (sorry for incredible lame pun) is “underworld”? If Demons are just aliens from the outer space? What is that any different from Age of Wonders, Fantasy General, Dungeons and Dragons, and so on?
If you don’t play Might and Magic games (or as I do, read about it on Acidcave ) you will not know anything about broader picture of this setting.
And more, you will not have any info of the universe AT ALL. What is the social policy in Bracada? What can tell you about the people of Tatalia? Their customs, religions etc.? What are the other countries in Enroth apart from Ironfist’s Kingdom? The only games in the series that trying to give player any immersion in its setting are Heroes Chronicles (a spinoff, for Christ sake!) and Heroes 4 (before Heroes 6, almost universally acclaimed as the worst game in the series).
So why does player have to has any feelings for the “old universe” when he doesn’t play in Might and Magic games? If he doesn’t like the heroes – Sandro, Gem, Crag Hack, Gelu – there is no reason to long for the old universe.
Because that universe is really, really bland. Of course, you can always say: "But you couldn’t just look on HoMM games. If you want to have a full scope of universe, you’ll have to take into consideration Might and Magic series!" Butseriously, why? HoMM games are independent from their "main" series. If Heroes games doesn’t do anything to deepen its setting, that mean this setting (ie: setting that appears ONLY in Heroes games) doesn’t have anything interesting to offer as itself.
Putting it simply: I don’t want to defend the old world because I don’t know anything about it. And I couldn’t read about it in game or any relevant game materials (once again, I’m not counting Might and Magic fluff).
4. Advantages of The New Universe
Now look at the Ashan. Even before the launch date of HoMM5 you’ve had plenty information about new setting. You know what kingdoms in Ashan are, who lives in them, what are their religion and so on. Of course many of those information were retconned, some knowledge was added or shown later (split between Orcs for example, differences between duchies of Empire and so on), but it doesn’t change the fact that new universe (as appear only in Heroes series, not counting any spinoffs and compendia) was much better flesh out than the Old Universe.
Also, I doesn’t really understand one thing. All that accusations that Ashan is “unoriginal” is almost always joined with “concerns” of new Necropolis and Inferno. I don’t really get it. Those objections are mutually exclusive!
5. Merits of new Necromancers
How could anyone want bringing back the old Necropolis? That faction was boring as hell. They were just older than dust For-The-Evulz evil sorcereres who want to destroy the world. Why? Because they are Evulz! Sorry, I much more prefer new “buddhist” faction.
Especially for the reason, that the new presentation of necromancers doesn’t precludes them from being I-Want-To-Rule-The-World evil sorcerers. Look at the ToTE campaign. How many times Arantir whined about necromancers who doesn’t show proper respect to Asha and think only about theirs “secular” power?
6. Merits of new Inferno
The same could be said about Ashan demons. Why would I bother with defending of originality of alien Kreegans if it doesn’t even proper, clearly addressed in any of the Heroes games? If I’m wrong here – I suppose I could forgot about some Heroes Chronicles or Heroes 4 references - I would really like to see relevant quote .
The children of Urgash has much more potential than its seems. Those whole “Might makes right” philosophy is really great subversion of classic demons tropes. In many fantasy games, books etc. the people doesn’t really have reasons to join the demons. But in Ashan? Excuse me, if I’m the peasant whom the knights of one of the rival noble lords just destroy crops, kill family and conscript children as soldiers – what is the better god to pray than Urgash? Elrath? He is a dragon God of Light but also of Law, Obediance and Monarch Legitimacy. “Law and Order instead of Good and Mercy”. Your rightful ruler says that you have to go to the war and die for him - and that's what you suppose to do.
Demons tells you that noble birth matters nothing. If you prove you’re strong, you could be anyone. That philosophy is almost libertarian for Asha’s sake Most of the peasent revolts in Ashan could be rightfully inspired by demons and it would be really coherent with lore.
7. Unused potential
That is, I have to agree that most of Ashan potential is unfortunately unused. But I beg you to differentiate three different things:
- Writing,
- Lore,
- “Playability”
The game could have good plot, nicely written dialogues and so on, but be buggy, unpolished and so on. Look at the Heroes 4 vanilla. Campaigns of Tawni Balfour, Gauldoth – they are masterpiece. Even that of Elwin or Emilia are really good.
But the game seems unfinished, maps in campaign mostly focus on “internal” (Haven vs Haven etc,.) conflicts which was boring etc.
Also, lore and setting was sketchy at best. We don’t know really anything about Aranorn and Palaedra.
Heroes 6. Just look at the bios of heroes and creatures. They maybe not the best, but they give more information about setting that bios from all NWC Heroes games combined. But thanks to the bad application of new tier system battles was reaaally long and boring. More than this, you'll probably (as I do) take the same abilities no matter which faction or hero you’ve played.
Heroes 5. Really nice gameplay, much more strategic and tactical options than with other games, almost just as nice to casuals as HoMM3. And also the worst written plot I’ve ever seen. It was sad, because story wasn’t really that bad, but was totally destroyed with lousy writing (“Griffin Eternal! Cast random spell.” )
That’s why I don’t like bashing Ashan. Lore and setting just aren't the factors responsible for subpar quality of new Heroes games.
8. Rescue for the franchise
There isn’t a way to stop all those petty wars in HoMM community, but I think there is one thing that could help with all those problems with “Old vs New Conflict”:
Spiritual successor. You’ve read that right. Heroes of Might and Magic needs their own Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Civilization: Beyond Earth, Wasteland and so on.
In fact, I’m in deep shock, that no one tried to do that. With such strong modders community which gives us HoTA and WoG?!
I would love to see a spiritual successor to Heroes 3. With beautiful graphic and low-level system requirements, with tactical depth but as friendly for casuals as Heroes 3 etc.
I’ve said earlier that I don’t like Old Universe. But it doesn’t mean that I don’t see potential that lies with all that science fantasy theme. Execution of that idea was (IMHO) really, really poor: why do You (developers of HOMM3: AB) was surprised that some of your fans doesn’t like Forge? They probably doesn’t play Might and Magic, they like Heroes series because it was beautiful, standard fantasy setting.
If someone would like to make a truly great “reboot” of the old Heroes, you have to emphasis from the very beginning that your setting is Space Fantasy.
Some of my ideas to potential hypothetical author of the New Heroes of Might and Magic:
- make your “default” Kingdom a steampunk nation. Golems as backbone infantry, Titans, Mages, Airships, that kind of thing. Fans would accommodate to the fact that this setting is more technologically advanced than most, and probably won’t protest too much when you finally give them Forge. And also:
- … give fans a hints of “science fiction” technology in game itles. Leave enough subtle references, that even the less intelligent players would think out that those Angels Portal of Light is in reality spaceship.
- use technological aesthetics with care. Remember third law of Clarke and stick with it. Look at the other space fantasy works how that’s done. Especially Thor 2: Dark World
- give your setting some metaplot. Use Artifacts of Doom and MacGuffins to make it work – “you’ll have to catch them all” to find the Ancients and stop Kreegan invasion on Galaxy. That sort of thing. Oh crap, maybe even rip off from Marvel Cinematic Universe and bring your version of Infinity Stones or other Crystals of Time, Gems of Eternity and so on. You could even…
- … give yours heroes some sort of interstellar travel, portals etc. That way, if your game will be successful, you can change the world in each iteration, revamp factions but also bring back those new favourite Sandros and Crag Hacks.
Well, that will be all. Great thanks for all of you, who spends all your precious time to read all my stuff. Once again, thanks and… well, hello
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 04:34 PM |
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Elvin said:
What is simplistic is calling the community what you did for complaining. Many complaints are valid and I consider it ubisoft's responsibility for failing to see whatthey did. Or did not do. This is a series with a legacy that has often been overlooked and people have developed certain expectations and standards over the years. So seeing the community as a bunch of self-entitled whiners is only a small part of the greater picture.
It would have been a different matter if ubi created the same games under a different series. But what it comes down to is that decisions that divide the community are bad for their community as well as their pockets.
there is a difference between complaints and the damned if you damned if you dont attitude of some people here but whats worse is that YOU allow every thread of this flop forum to filled with that cesspit and either do nothing or celebrate it.
I agree with Kimarous, Sli and W-O. Between the poor forum software, the snowty moderation, Heroes being a niche franchise and the Old!Universe spam from those 3 guys all this forum does is drive away people
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 04:58 PM |
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verriker said:
and one thing that hasn't changed is that this so-called 90s game which established its own sensibilities is still to this day considered "the most popular Heroes® title of all time" lol
So? What of it if it was the most popular? Tetris is one of the most if not most popular video (computer) game in the world. Games with stories, character, 3D graphics, multiplayer features, their own lores etc. are all inferior. We should stop making those and go back to the time where games were games. Right? Chess is far more popular than any HoMM title. This would means, that best HoMM game would be as chess-like as possible ... (this is true in tactical sense, but I mean in general snese). Chess dosen't have Ashan, and silly Vampires ... so ... there you go
I agree that H3 is the best heroes game. But I like other games aswell, not just HoMM and not just strategy. So what would prevent me to like this Ubisoft game? In my mind I don't link it to H3 AT ALL. I consider it a seperate entity. It is afterall: diferent game, with a diferent title, produced by diferent people, set in a diferent universe, with story that has no links to previous titles.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 05:45 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 17:46, 04 Apr 2015.
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thanks for your post Nuriel! even if I don't concur with much of your thinking, at least I can respect the constructive alternative view, shake hands with you and agree to disagree
GenyaArikado said:
I agree with Kimarous, Sli and W-O. Between the poor forum software, the snowty moderation, Heroes being a niche franchise and the Old!Universe spam from those 3 guys all this forum does is drive away people
what's the matter? AFAIK, HC is supposed to be a neutral forum for Heroes fans of all persuasions, not a No Homers club where one form of fandom is considered superior to another, so why do you think fans of Ubisoft's games would be entitled to special treatment?
I mean even Ubisoft themselves condede that NWC made the most popular game, so it's kind of natural you'll see plenty of "spam from those Heroes 3 guys" lol
Zombi_Wizzard said:
So? What of it if it was the most popular? Tetris is one of the most if not most popular video (computer) game in the world. Games with stories, character, 3D graphics, multiplayer features, their own lores etc. are all inferior. We should stop making those and go back to the time where games were games. Right? Chess is far more popular than any HoMM title. This would means, that best HoMM game would be as chess-like as possible ... (this is true in tactical sense, but I mean in general snese). Chess dosen't have Ashan, and silly Vampires ... so ... there you go
I agree that H3 is the best heroes game. But I like other games aswell, not just HoMM and not just strategy. So what would prevent me to like this Ubisoft game? In my mind I don't link it to H3 AT ALL. I consider it a seperate entity. It is afterall: diferent game, with a diferent title, produced by diferent people, set in a diferent universe, with story that has no links to previous titles.
not quite what I said, like I mentioned in the other thread I don't believe popularity equates to quality or worth, but in the specific case of Erwin's decision to ape World of Warcraft to make Heroes more popular than before, that obviously didn't work and was therefore not a great decision lol
fair enough if you are able to think of Ashan as a new IP (it isn't, even if I agree storywise it's more or less a huge exercise in fanfiction lol), but as long as they own the formula, hold the Might and Magic name and call these games Heroes 5, or 6, or 7, I won't be able to follow you down that path lol
I don't give up on the series being able to do itself justice again, and that doesn't mean I think Ubisoft must bring Axeoth back to achieve that either, even though it's pretty clear to me Ashan is an unsalvageable lost cause with Erwin leading it lol
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 04, 2015 05:47 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I agree with Kimarous, Sli and W-O. Between the poor forum software, the snowty moderation, Heroes being a niche franchise and the Old!Universe spam from those 3 guys all this forum does is drive away people
Deal with it
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 05:50 PM |
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It's really a shame that after so many great posts, things on this forum will never change. 
Quote:
HC is supposed to be a neutral forum for Heroes fans of all persuasions, not a No Homers club where one form of fandom is considered superior to another, so why do you think fans of Ubisoft's games would be entitled to special treatment?
The fact that in most cases Ashan fans might feel unwelcome, because of the attitudes around here and being branded as tasteless kinda does not help your case, you know?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 04, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
many great posts
for example?
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 05:54 PM |
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Nuriel, Sorts, even Kimarous raised very good points that were mostly ignored.
Nuriel was spot on in his defense of Ashan's Necropolis, no one proved him wrong... how much are you willing to bet that Ashan is going to be called 'crap' again with zero support, as if it's some kind of objective fact?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 04, 2015 06:02 PM |
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markkur said:
However, it seems the hot topics are always "looks & lore". With that said, I do fully realize that most of the folks here @ HC do not seem interested in my likes and think it somehow taints the HoMM experience.
I am so happy that there are still people around here that believe the same way I do. Looks are truly not that important. It's the gameplay that matters and many people around here tend to forget it. Skill system, that may be a game breaker was discussed, yet it worries died out. However, the topic that is reiterated regularly is the lore, on which light has been shed from all the directions and people still find some mythical force to critisize it, even though everything in that topic was ssaid at least 3 times.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 06:02 PM |
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Sligneris said:
The fact that in most cases Ashan fans might feel unwelcome, because of the attitudes around here and being branded as tasteless kinda does not help your case, you know?
I feel alienated from the series because of Erwin's decisions and the world he created, I don't have any problem with the fanbase he somehow developed,
but this is a forum and if you guys come in to argue the toss then I'm free to debate back with my own perspective as long as I respect the CoC and try to avoid ad hominem arguments, it's really that simple from my perspective lol
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This thread is pages long: 
