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| Thread: Ashan-based Lineups, do you even care? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 07, 2014 07:12 PM |
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Poll Question:
Ashan-based Lineups, do you even care?
Something that has been on my mind for some time. I have seen a number of comments on how x unit does not fit in Ashan x faction or it clashes with the lore. So I really have to ask, how many of you actually care about that? Would you favour Ashan lore over getting your favourite units in a lineup? For instance.. would you like the sylvan phoenix more if it was an integral part of sylvan culture? Would you like the dungeon nightmare more if it was unrelated to the unicorn? Do you like the medusa less now that the lore makes her a naga? Personally I cannot bring myself to care about those things, provided that I get my classic units and their theme is respected. I believe that the lore should provide an adaptable setting so that you can justify the inclusion of certain units, rather than restrict what goes in a lineup or change their nature so as to fit the Ashan vision of their faction. But just to make it clear, this poll is not about your like or dislike of Ashan-unique creatures over classic creatures. This poll is only about classic units and how you feel about Ashan lore dictating their feel or place in a lineup.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 07:16 PM |
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I voted units over lore but its actually a healthy mix of both.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 07, 2014 07:17 PM |
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I favor units over lore, although mixed opinion could work too.
But restricting Faction's Line-ups because of lore? NEVER!
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted November 07, 2014 07:20 PM |
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I voted lore, it's very important to me that a faction feels like it follows a theme... that there's a thought behind it and not just a bunch of creatures thrown together.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 07:23 PM |
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Lore and units should go hand in hand. If the lore points something out, then a unit should follow suit. If a unit does something, then the lore should follow.
Although this is a interquel of a story, overall, lore can evolve. Because nothing is kept stagnate. Time marches on, and the units should evolve, and the lore should match.
If we had units that did not fit lore at all, like say we have a faction filled with the "holiest of holies" angel guys fraternizing with some torturous demonic slave servants, the units aren't to blame in full, and neither is the lore. Both sides are mismatching, and thus both parts are to blame equally.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 07, 2014 07:24 PM |
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So mixed man, so mixed.
Medusas back, awesome, they were a real force to be reckoned with back in H2.
Then again, why are they naga now? There was no reason to make them a naga. They could have been medusas.
So I quess it means I prefer well lored creatures but when they make fail lore decisions I facepalm 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 07, 2014 07:26 PM |
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I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand I very much agree with Elvin. The lore is very restrictive and it shouldn't be. The current canon has so many corners, they write themselves into one very often. And it takes a lot of creative writing to write themselves out again, which makes things restricting, confusing and convoluted. And considering that this was the exact reason they did away with the 3DO/NWC universe, they may just see that approacing on the horizon of their own canon. So I feel the Lore should be subserviant to the creatures.
But on the other hand, I'm a lorehound. And I am very demanding of the lore. And I want good, interesting lore, that I want to immerge myself in. Playing fast and loose, might be good for the game, but not for the lore. The fact that the game needs to be able to change and throw old info out the window, makes for farfetched writing and more convolution. Which is bad for the quality of the lore.
Which leads me to the result that the Lore restricts the Game, but the Game restricts the Lore. Resulting in my mixed feeling, because there should be some way to turn that around so that the Lore and the Game enhance eachother instead.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2014 07:36 PM |
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Well, H3 is still most people's favorite and it had towns that mixed lore and myths of different cultures overwhelmingly. Genies/Gremlins/Golems or Manticores/Medusas/Troglydotes... But everybody loved the towns because they had taste and they were in their own way, reasonable fusions. Of course, you wont put a pixie in Inferno or a water elemental in Necropolis but the consistency of the lores shouldnt be too strict or necesserily authentic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 07, 2014 07:36 PM |
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Elvin said:
Do you like the medusa less now that the lore makes her a naga?
I voted mixed feelings because while I certainly feel creatures are more important than lore, I care enough for lore to be bothered by the Naga Medusa. On the other hand, one could turn this argument around and say that's just a case of unneeded lore (which is something that I've been saying before) because if the "Medusa" had simply been a dark-elf witch, I might not have minded so much. But in the end, I think a creature like a Medusa has so strong a mythological background that the only reasonable way to merge it with Ashan lore is indeed as a Naga, and then I do feel it should be in a swamp faction rather than Dungeon. So, yeah ... mixed feelings.
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What will happen now?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted November 07, 2014 07:43 PM |
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Mixed. Although there are some units that I consider to be must-have in some factions (like assasins in Dungeon), I have nothing against comebavks of olds units to their respective factions, as long as there is some quite sensible explaination why they are in this faction (like Medusas).
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted November 07, 2014 08:01 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 08 Nov 2014. |
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The need of keeping unit tied to lore is Ashans biggest problem at the moment. Everything is so rooted down by lore that introducing something, anything new in the setting is extremely hard since it's all so tied down already. Medusas are a prime example: a traditionally Dungeon/Warlock creature is suddenly so tied down by an entirely different faction that a unnecessarily complex reason is necessary to justify their place in Dungeon.
In the NWC games, every indivudual unit didn't have pages after pages of lore to explain where it is, where it belongs and what it ate for breakfast. Dwarves are in rampart because why not? then suddenly they're in academy because why not? and no one complained because it didn't go against some tidbit of information previously stated as fact or whatevs.
Since creatures and factions weren't so tied down NWC were free to do whatever they wanted and the games were better for it. Could you imagine Centaurs or Dwarves in Sylvan anymore?
I can't and Ashan is weaker for it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:05 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 08 Nov 2014. |
Edited by Stevie at 09:39, 08 Nov 2014.
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I have mixed feelings.
My opinion on this is that each case needs to be treated separately rather than after a strict formula of "lore over units" or "units over lore". In each case there is a relationship between what you gain versus what you lose compared to the original.
A very good example which you invoked is the Phoenix's case. We could've voted Phoenix back into the Elvish line-up as seen in the NWC era, but at the price of retconning Ubi's Ashan lore. Phoenix with Elves in Ashan simply does not work, or rather there is no reason besides nostalgia that the unit should be in the Elvish town. Phoenix is a prime creature linked to Asha which is the primordial dragon of order. Sylvan worships Sylanna the dragon of Earth, so we can't find reason from their nature to be aligned with the Elves. And much more than that (like previous iterations as neutral/part of Academy, etc) which has already been debated and I'd rather leave it at that. Point is, some would accept the trade to have the creature back with the Elves, some not. And the same people might reason differently if it were the case for another creature.
In the current case of Nightmare and Naga I can see that they both have drawbacks, but in either case I could come to terms with the compromise. Yes, personally I would've preferred more to have another explanation for the Nightmare since there was no coercing reason in the lore to tie it with the Unicorn. The Medusa being a Naga is well explained in lore so somewhat compelling to agree with the reasoning, but at the expense of having a half-assed Medusa that is in no way true to its nature. Hence, the mesmerising ability which is an attempt to replicate petrification.
So, what I'm mainly trying to say here is that we have different reasons for different scenarios. We cannot just pick a reasoning and roll with it for every case. That's not to say that in doing so we disregard lore/flavor aspects. We just take the trade between what we gain and what we lose from a unit/lore perspective and accept it as the best compromise.
As for what I think about Ashan and its restrictions, I'm left with the impression that while the setting is restrictive in its own right, the devs are not trying to find solutions at all. Dare I say that it appears they're furthering the restrictive character out of their own volition (Shadow Unicorn). In any case, there are obvious restrictions that come from the lore with the intent of conserving a town's theme, that's to say you cannot have Demons as part of the Haven line-up, or any other faction as far as Ashan goes. Is that restrictive? Yes. Is that bad? Depends on what you like best, random creatures thrown together or creatures unified by a theme. Personally I prefer the latter.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:05 PM |
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I vote units, as lore doesnt appeal to me.
I actually hate people that want the lore to count, because of those freaks I have to stick with 4 dwarves and 3 dark and normal elves instead of cool mythological units.
I don't care if it doesn't make sense to have mintotaurs, with harpies and medusa's in a town, as long as they kill of more than one dark elves in the town.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:11 PM |
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Classic units can be written in the lore in a fantasy setting without that much of an effort. So units over lore any day - that being said I really like the effort they put into lore and wouldn't want simply a hodgepodge of units in a faction either.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:14 PM |
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Lore is more important, but it's possible to balance that with good unit lineups because it's malleable and can be changed to justify reasonable lineups.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Buki
Hired Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:23 PM |
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:25 PM |
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I dont like how the old universe lore is non existant (for things like creatures i mean)
Any unit can go to any faction with the proper explanation. Times change and people go and forth. After all, less than 100 years ago France and Germany were sworn enemies and around 200 years ago so were the USA and the UK. The only limits are in your heads
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted November 07, 2014 08:39 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 08 Nov 2014. |
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Mixed here. The lore is very important but it is only a framework for the stories told. The best way to write the lore out of this hole is to move forward with the timeline instead od doing prequels and do a H4 style reckoning. Not necessarily the destruction of the world, but do we really need as many gods and as many unchangable legendary heroes and dynasties that spawn across millenia? Let power flow between gods and factions. Let Malassa kick some Elrath butt and bring back Sylath for the patron god of the humans for a while. Suddenly there is a lot more room for new creatures in the heaven lineup. Make Arkhat kick some Shalassa butt for a couple of centuries and weaken its control over nagas thus enabling Malassa to win over some nagas, corrupt them and turn them into medusa, forever to be a part of dungeon, exiled out of sanctuary.
Even in this constrained lore there is plenty of room to find justification to meddle with the lineups. No need for retcons which ruin any credibility the universe has left. All we have to do is move forward instead of going back in time with each game to try and insert dynasties and legendary heroes into the lore, only to have them forgotten by the next game since there are always atleast a couple of centuries between games.
As for the creatures themselves, the main problem is that there are simply too many of them to fit into one game unless they finally allow a pool of creatures to choose from for all tiers instead of this half-assed selectable champion choice.
artu said:
Of course, you wont put a pixie in Inferno or a water elemental in Necropolis but the consistency of the lores shouldnt be too strict or necesserily authentic.
But they could! We could put a fire pixie together with efreets, nightmares and heretics into inferno without any problem if only the lore permitted Urgash more of a corrupting influence over Ashan. It would only need to last for a single game and they could be cemented into the lore if only it got a proper explanation. Same with waterelementals in necropolis. The Venomspawn worked wonderfully and it's not much of a stretch for a waterelemental. Phonix/Moonix as well. Just keep them seperate from the summonable prime phonix and reason its inclusion in Sylvan by saying they were reborn during a certain stellar constellation and are now bound to this plain of existance only to be raised from hatchlings by druid elders. Simple. And I just came up with this in 10 minutes. Infinately more reasonable then what we got from the Ubi story department sofar and it leaves so much room for improvements without retconnig anything.
Now guess what a proper team of writers could come up with if a simple shmuck like me can come up with this.
Long story short - all units have a place in Ashan, it's just that there are more of them now and we need more themes per faction to utilize them properly.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2014 08:41 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 08 Nov 2014. |
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To me the actual issue here is that Heroes V started out as a new concept by using some classic elements of the old factions into new factions that were more "race" or "theme" based, to be able to tell a proper story instead of not only to throw random units together but also to avoid dull storytelling that involves one faction beating their own kind, like it was in all of Heroes IV's campaigns.
And after that they seemed to elaborate on it more, not just introducing Dark Elves, but giving Dwarves a faction, reinventing Stronghold into a complete Orc faction and finally introducing Naga that eradicated the resemblance to certain old elements, as in Naga in the Wizard town and Medusa in Dungeon.
What happens now though? Heroes VII is the fastest announced new title in a decade, looks like the Might & Magic "umbrella brand" is working so they want to keep on striking the iron. But a couple of years ago they had already revealed Ashan is not limitless and they celebrated the Naga as the last new faction in the game. They are now simply rotating the 9 factions, Sanctuary takes a break, Academy and Sylvan are back. The 6 factions on paper almost seems like a Heroes V update (Academy faction also stays close to its Heroes V incarnation). So instead of trying to further improve factions, they resort to nostalgia because they know that gets the attention of fans who might have been disappointed by the previous game.
Nostalgia, by breaking their own championed rules. Phoenix almost for Sylvan? Medusa possibly for Dungeon, by an explanation that makes it seem they can't even take seriously of the world they created? And what about downright claiming the Nightmare is a new unit in the Ashan universe?
I guess I do care about the lore more at this point, they won me over with the lineups and a lot of the storyline in Heroes VI so now it's disappointing that they basically admit that they ran out of ideas. But I guess fans are partly to be blamed, we have threads here complaining about the Wolf and Landsknecht in Haven because they happen to be NEW and don't resemble concepts from 15 year old games. Why not elaborate more on the Dark Elf concept in Dungeon? Sure, we've got the Manticore back last time around but the Dark Elf units and Faceless were different from Heroes V, in the 3 lineups we had a grand total of one unit that was not a rework of a Heroes V-VI unit or a downright pre-Heroes V nod.
And one can always daydream whether there would ever be a Heroes VIII at all, and would Ashan be able to carry another game, but I guess that is not something that should be discussed in 2014...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 07, 2014 08:41 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
The need of keeping unit tied to lore is Ashans biggest problem at the moment. Everything is so rooted down by lore that introducing something, anything new in the setting is extremely hard since it's all so tied down already. Medusas are a prime example: a traditionally Dungeon/Warlock creature is suddenly so tied down by an entirely different faction that a unnecessarily complex reason is necessary to justify their place in Dungeon.
In the NWC games, every indivudual unit didn't have pages after pages of lore to explain where it is, where it belongs and what it ate for breakfast. Dwarves are in rampart because why not? then suddenly they're in academy because why not? and no one complained because it didn't go against some tidbit of information previously stated as fact or whatevs.
Since creatures and factions weren't so tied down NWC were free to do whatever they wanted and the games were better for it. Could you imagine Centaurs or Dwarves in Sylvan anymore?
I can't and Ashan is weaker for it.
I think you pretty much nail it in this post. I have to say that the paradox for me is that I really like the fact that in Ashan, each faction has got a strong definition in the race and society that it revolves around, but on the other hand they really suffer from the factions being too confined within these frames.
I think the way they should solve this problem is by having a clear distinction between the racial creatures and the (magical) beasts associated with each faction. The racial creature should have a strong tie with the lore, whereas magical beasts can come and go between different iterations of the game and should be controlled more by themes and mythology than by lore.
I don't like when they start mixing the racial creatures into different factions, however, like the Naga Medusa appearing in Dungeon - it both seems messy and unnecessary because we had a perfectly fine dark-elf equivalent in the Matriarch.
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What will happen now?
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