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| Thread: Sylvan vs Dungeon, lineups similarities | |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 05:31 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 05:40, 15 Nov 2014.
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Sylvan vs Dungeon, lineups similarities
My reflexion on how the lineups were designed.
The way I see it, we could easily narrow the pattern into two major categories : creatures, and strategic approach (suggested gameplay).
Now, for each of these categories could depend three sub-categories.
1) Creatures
- Creatures established in Enroth
- Creatures established in Ashan
- New creatures
2) Gameplay
- Defensive
- Balanced
- Offensive
For all lineups, Limbic chose three creatures that they esteemed as representatives that cannot be apart and that will appear in the faction whatever lineup gets chosen.
For Sylvan these choices were Hunter, Treant, and Green Dragon while for Dungeon, they were Minotaur, Black Dragon and Hydra.
That makes 3 spots filled out of 8.
Another 3 spots will include new creatures, never seen in the franchise before. For Sylvan these choices were Root Snake, Emerald Warrior and Moon Doe while for Dungeon they were Skirmisher, Shadow Unicorn and Strider.
The rest will include a choice between other known creatures from the series largely distributed through the lineups. Namely Pixie, Dryad, Unicorn, Druid, Phoenix and Blade-dancer for Sylvan and Assassin, Stalker, Troglodyte, Shadow Lurker, Faceless, Medusa and Manticore for Dungeon.
From those, they are some appearing in two lineups, while others in only one.
The creatures appearing in only one-lineup are the ones that interest me here.
Those were Unicorn (Strength), Phoenix (Balance), Blade-dancer (Fury), and Moon Doe (Fury) for Sylvan while for Dungeon they were Skirmisher (Blade), Nightmare (Blade), Faceless (Blade), Medusa (Faces) and Manticore (Shield).
From this point, I will narrow the creatures that have in common being not only the already known ones but also the ones isolated in one lineup.
Defense = Unicorn, Manticore
Balance = Phoenix, Medusa
Offense = Blade-dancer, Faceless
Now let's take a closer look.
- Unicorn, present in every single iteration of the games until MMH7, famous for its blinding ability and for its magical resistance in both Enroth & Ashan. Strong mythological creature.
- Manticore, famous for its paralyzing abilities in both Enroth & Ashan. Strong mythological creature.
- Phoenix, Champion for Sylvan in majority of HOMM games until MMH7, originally planned to be Sylvan's champion in HOMM-V by NWC. Strong mythological creature.
- Medusa, famous for its stoning ability in HOMM-III. Strong mythological creature.
- Blade-dancer, introduced in HOMM-V, upgraded to Elite tier for MMH7, famous for its War-dance “Hydra-like” ability, offers combo with Sylvan CoH's creature, Moon Doe. Strong influence on gameplay, will appeal one's preference inclined towards fast & offensive strategy.
- Faceless, introduced in MMH6, famous for its teleporting ability, offers combo with Shadow Unicorn, not as fresh as Moon Doe, but still. Strong influence on gameplay, will appeal one's preference inclined towards fast & offensive strategy.
What I see here is that creatures being unique to the lineups share nostalgia between defensive and balanced lineups, while offering some novelty in offensive ones.
Even though they are slight differences between Sylvan and Dungeon proposals (like fixed Champs and one Elite common to all for Dungeon), I am very tempted to say that roughly :
Strength = Shield
Balance = Faces
Fury = Blade
It goes without saying that the developers may have had a totally different approach, taking other elements into consideration, as this is only my interpretation and how I see the franchise evolving. Does it really evolve ? Are those choices good or not ? Are questions that will probably get their answers through time...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 11:46 AM |
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An interesting read, but I'm not sure what the point is your getting at.
Also, you've missed the fact that the Druid was equally present in all 3 Sylvan Line-ups, just as the Hunter, Green Dragon and Treant.
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Kurush
Known Hero
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posted November 15, 2014 02:14 PM |
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Edited by Kurush at 14:16, 15 Nov 2014.
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Really, you missed the Druid? The classic fantasy class/creature?
Not cool dude.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 08:20 PM |
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How can I have missed the Druids indeed. But this doesn't seem to change much the equation anyway.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 08:30 PM |
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Galaad said:
But this doesn't seem to change much the equation anyway.
War-overlord said:
I'm not sure what the point is your getting at.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 08:35 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I'm not sure what the point is your getting at.
You may see it better here.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 15, 2014 08:36 PM |
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I'm not quite sure what the point is either. All throughout, the only thing I could think of was a post I made on the blog, pointing out the similarities between the Skirmisher and the Emerald Knights - both being female elf spearwomen with strike and return capabilities, only one is purple and Core tier and the other is green and Elite tier. It was more intended as a "food for thought" exercise for those who wished we could have gotten both a non-Fury roster for Sylvan and the "Blade In The Shadows option" for Dungeon, in an effort to make them complain less by realizing what they were wishing for.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 08:54 PM |
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Galaad said:
You may see it better here.
If your point was it takes to much time for them to come up with 3 possible line-ups for us to choose from, then I disagree.
Cause we did not get that much. We got some names, we got some overly generalised role descriptors, mostly rehashed artwork and some lore descriptions, most of which were also rehashed.
No, most of this work is done pretty easy. The comming up with the units, both in name and role is a matter of Marzhin, Erwan and whoever else is involved going out for drinks and one of them to keep sober enough to write everything down. (and if that is not the case, they need to hire me, cause I can come up with that in a comfy chair with a few cold beers) The copy-pasting of old stuff is work for some intern. And the writing of new stuff is something Marzhin actually needs to sit down for. Which might take him perhaps half a day, perhaps less.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:42, 16 Nov 2014.
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War-overlord said:
If your point was it takes to much time for them to come up with 3 possible line-ups for us to choose from, then I disagree.
I actually didn't have any point when I first wrote this. But then, I saw that I could link my two posts and my point wouldn't be what you're implying.
My point would be that time and energy are better focused elsewhere than for marketing.
War-overlord said:
No, most of this work is done pretty easy.
This convince me even more. Should it be easy ? I don't see proposing one valuable lineup considering Enroth & Ashan variables a simple task. Providing three around few beers doesn't sound good to me.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 09:51 PM |
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Galaad said:
This convince me even more. Should it be easy ? I don't see proposing one valuable lineup considering Enroth & Ashan variables a simple task. Providing three around few beers doesn't sound good to me.
Have you seen my (unfinished) proposal for a Ziggurat/Swamp Fortress Faction in the Altar of Wishes? HERE I consider that a quite reasonable reasonable attempt at a concept for the revival of that faction, with both Enroth and Ashan considered. Take into account that the initial thought was just names and what now falls under Specifics. Do you know what it took for me to come up with that? I'll tell you. One night of having trouble falling asleep. Because my mind was utterly unoccupied and bored for a certain length of time, I could come up with that. Writing the descriptions, finding the artwork that I did not have lying around, that all took quite some time. But the rough concept just took boredom and a chance for my mind to wander. If you have 2 creative bones in your body, a love of fantasy and a penchant for writing it doesn't take that much.
Now imagine that I was with several creative people, in a creative mood, coming up with a few more creatures is not that hard. Pleasing everyone is hard, but coming up with 3 reasonable alternatives....
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 10:01 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:03, 15 Nov 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Have you seen my (unfinished) proposal for a Ziggurat/Swamp Fortress Faction in the Altar of Wishes? HERE
Yes I have, and I think you should get a QP for it when you're done.
Because it makes Lizardmen survive through the years, and let us hope to have a Swamp revival someday.
War-overlord said:
If you have 2 creative bones in your body, a love of fantasy and a penchant for writing it doesn't take that much.
Now imagine that I was with several creative people, in a creative mood, coming up with a few more creatures is not that hard.
I never said anything against that, so I fail to see where our opinions differ here.
War-overlord said:
Pleasing everyone is hard, but coming up with 3 reasonable alternatives....
Are you suggesting that proposing three alternatives, each everyone of them lacking elements that can be found within the other two, can be qualified as reasonable ? Because I think not.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 10:05 PM |
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Galaad said:
War-overlord said:
Pleasing everyone is hard, but coming up with 3 reasonable alternatives....
Are you suggesting that proposing three alternatives, each everyone of them lacking elements that can be found within the two others, as reasonable ? Because I think not.
I've never said all three options proposed by Ubisoft were reasonable. Because from where I stand, they've proposed 1 good, 1 fairly reasonable and 1 bad option both times.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 15, 2014 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:11, 15 Nov 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Because from where I stand, they've proposed 1 good, 1 fairly reasonable and 1 bad option both times.
Strenght and Shield.
Unicorn + Phoenix and Manticore + Medusa would have been more like it from where I stand. So for me they proposed three failed attempts.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted November 15, 2014 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:17, 15 Nov 2014.
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Galaad said:
Strenght and Shield.
Unicorn + Phoenix and Manticore + Medusa would have been more like it from where I stand. So for me they proposed three failed attempts.
I agree the dispersion of classical creatures often into just one line-up disappointed me greatly.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 15, 2014 10:24 PM |
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Galaad said:
Strenght and Shield.
Unicorn + Phoenix and Manticore + Medusa would have been more like it from where I stand. So for me they proposed three failed attempts.
I would agree. Even though I've never cared that much for either the Phoenix or the Medusa. So I could very easily live without them.
But as you've seen in the comment sections, there are many who prefer Ashan over Enroth. So I sort of get the "Something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue" approach to creating line-ups, even though I don't agree with it completely. Or at the very least, I don't agree with how they did it.
The approach they seem to have taken is to make a Heavy Enroth, Enroth and Ashan Alternative. The Enrothians outnumber the Ashanians for now, but they are easily split. But the Ashanians are still significant enough in number to warrant paying them attention
Proposing 3 Ashanian line-ups, estranges all Enrothians and vice versa. So neither is an option.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 18, 2014 01:06 PM |
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Skirmisher is an old creature.
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