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| Thread: Racials: Yay or Nay |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 09, 2014 05:31 PM |
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Poll Question:
Racials: Yay or Nay
So i have for a long while despised the new heroes games approach to racial skills, or rather how they are very limited. Every racial ability since h5 have been unique to that faction and that faction alone. for example only wizard creature could equip mini-artifacts in h5 and only sanctuary troops could use the honor bonuses in h6. Don't get me wrong, i like racial abilities, but they should only be limited to the faction of your hero, not your creatures. sure, in some cases it makes sense: only undead can rise from the dead and only demons can gate, but i feel so limited if my choice of troops can't make use of my heroes entire skillset.
so my question is: Do you like the current use of racials or would you like something different?
personally i'd like it if it didn't limit me to a single faction of creatures. the morale penalty should be enough to hinder you.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 06:15 PM |
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The way I see it, it's hard to pull of a racial fully. I love the idea, because from H3, there wasn't much in the way of a "racial", except for Necromancy. I loved H5's version, but it made it so that some were uninteresting (Avenger and Counterstrike... yay) or others felt weird (Orcs have blood rage! Except when they aren't led by a hero. They they are all cowards. No one remembers their blood.) Some made sense, such as Necromancy and Gating, where the hero actually did the things, but then why couldn't random mobs have these "mini artifacts" the Wizards created?
Further, it made faction-mixing less prosperous. Sure, some of it was already frowned on (don't mix "good" and "evil" units because morale... and don't EVER mix good units with dead ones) but it made less sense. "Awesome! I just found a group of angels! I sure hope I could give them these artifacts... Nope. I'm a heathen, they won't accept them. Too bad for them, they could have really made use of this."
"To arms, my elven brethren! We just accepted these dwarves into our warband and... oh, wait. They don't know how to choose a target? Idiots."
"Look at these runes! They give us strength! Good thing we found these helpful orcs, perhaps they would like to aid us against these demon legions! What's that? Refuse to take my empowering runes? Good luck."
Sure, these could be seen as a way of saying "These factions hate each other", which makes sense, but it removes the added strategy of army mixing.
And don't even get me started with H6's racial gauges.
I feel it should be more widely accepted, but, I really, REALLY can't see much good out of removing them. The racial does add some interesting strategies into the mix. When it came to H3, for me, many factions felt the same. Couple of shooters, some walkers, some flyers. The one that felt really different was... Necro. Because they had a racial, and no one else did.
So racials should exist. But trying to be all inclusive makes the factions wonky. Imagine a demon trying to use gating... on an elf. Or a warlord of the deserts reminding dark elves of their demonic blood to get them riled up. Or necromancers raising angels back from the dead. Or a human using their awesome powers of morale bending to make an army of skeletons and golems happy. It would look really strange.
I feel they should be hero based, but I do wish for some extra leniency. Imagine if you could use the Haven special on some other units, like the Griffin. You know, since they aren't actually part of the faction? Or say we had some neutral elvish units, like the Unicorns or Root Pythons. It'd be cool to be able to use Sylvan's racial with them.
I guess what I really want is faction-directed neutrals. Too unwieldy to use for every day occurrence, but close enough to use better than your total opposites.
I voted for "limited to heroes", but I feel that doesn't totally show what I'm trying to say. A sort of balance between a hero for use, but can affect a limited supply of units, yet not only for town-units and nothing else. I hope that makes sense.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 06:20 PM |
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well, I'm not sure I'm in the position to say how its better because I'm a newbie (I only play against the AI) and because the last HOMM I played was HOMM 5 (which kind of sucked when compared to H3, or even to H4), but... the point is that I am not aware what is new in the latter versions of HOMM, but I think I know what you mean by racial abilities and if I'm not wrong they were introduced in Heroes 5, which I happen to have played and as such, be familiar with.
So, if those are the racial abilities you are talking about, then again, I don't remember what exactly they did, but I would like those abilities to be present in every version of HOMM. So, I voted "other" on your poll because it seems logical to me that all Heroes game have such racial abilities. Moreover, I think both the heroes and the creatures should have such abilities (the more diversity and stuff to be wary of the better a strategy game is), but since this option (both heroes and creatures should have racial abilities) was NOT present in your poll I had to choose "other (please elaborate)"
I hope I could make myself clear 
And now back to Heroes.... 3. I just downloaded a SOD map and am playing with monere in memory of good old times when me and one of my high school colleagues were going fridays and saturdays nights at internet cafe and we were playing Heroes 3 till dawn and I was getting my ass whopped all the time hehe 
So, in memory of those times I am now heading to my saved H3 game and see if I remember how to win against.... the AI lol
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 09:38 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:39, 09 Dec 2014.
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The problem is complicated. Yes, restricting Racials to faction creatures is boring and doesn't always work, but for some it does. Necromancy f.e., or Gating, or Blood Rage, none of those really work with other factions' creatures, so you have to ask youself where you draw the line.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 09:57 PM |
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Gating could work independent of creature type. Just take the army size or hero spellpower to determine the size of the summoned stack and the skill proficiency to determine the type of demon summoned.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 09, 2014 10:42 PM |
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MattII said:
The problem is complicated. Yes, restricting Racials to faction creatures is boring and doesn't always work, but for some it does. Necromancy f.e., or Gating, or Blood Rage, none of those really work with other factions' creatures, so you have to ask youself where you draw the line.
I draw the definite line at Necro as being the only faction with exclusive racial, mostly cause it make sense, but also from tradition: you shouldn't want living things with your undead.
the others are possible to work around:
Steyn said:
Gating could work independent of creature type. Just take the army size or hero spellpower to determine the size of the summoned stack and the skill proficiency to determine the type of demon summoned.
like this, since the ability is indeed part of the hero and not the creatures. sort of. it just makes it into a summon demon spell, which makes sense.
blood rage could pose some problems, though i feel "hero makes creature totally mad" is a legitimate explanation. isn't that what happens anyway?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 09, 2014 10:46 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 22:47, 09 Dec 2014.
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There's a semi-easy solution to the problem: tie it in with Ultimate skills. Each faction should have its own, unique Ultimate skills, which are mutually exclusive in their acquisition and which have a signature that breathes their faction. It depends on the skills selected by the Hero which Ultimates are eventually available to him or her.
Ultimate skills should only loosely depend on the actual creatures of the faction and be able to be applied to other creatures too (perhaps to a lesser degree, depends on the Ultimate in question I guess).
Stuff like Demon Gating and Necro Raise Dead stuff can then be handed over to special structures within Towns, because you want Heroes to get relatively early access to them - sooner than getting an Ultimate skill, in any case. Each faction should get access to something similar in functionality, something that only that faction can apply on the battlefield. You can't use faction buildings in Towns from other factions, even if you've conquered the Town.
Essentially, you get low-level faction signature abilities / skills through the Towns of your faction (which each of your Heroes can apply, regardless of originating faction) and you get high-level faction signature abilities / skills through Hero Ultimate skills which don't depend on the player faction, but rather the Hero's originating faction. This explicitely considers the possibility of hiring Heroes from other factions.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 02:14 PM |
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Other.
Mainly coz i didn't see yay or nay option in answers. Here let me ask you a question in return, if i may....
Picture that you are playing H5 (i hope you know H5), and here's the scenario:
Your starting faction is Heaven, but your main hero got killed in first week, so now the strongest hero you have is Orc Barbarian, which you saved from prison. You also conquered early on a dwarven town, which is in this point in game even more developed than your human town (coz of resources on the map). Now your army is ofc a mix of dwarven and heaven units, so Angels and Thanes. But that's not all, because a rather large group of upgraded Mages have also pleaded to join your cause. Ofc who says no to powerfull spellcasters (which are now one of the most powerfull stacks in army to boot), so naturaly they are in there aswell.
Now my question is: Which race are you?
This is ofc only theoretical question ... an experiment if you will. In H5 terms you are not eligiable for any of the racials. So here you see main thing - mixing armies and racial skills are mutualy exclusive. Yes that's right. In fact "racial" only works for units of the same "race". So ofc it would be limited to that race's heroes/towns/units (or all of them combined). If you wanna have racial skills then mixing armies is a no go. Except for one stack or so ... maybe to have 2 champion units ... but that's about it. Basicaly, pick your race at the bigining of game and stick with it.
If on the other hand you wannna mix armies of diferent races and cherry pick your army composition like you would build a deck of MTG cards, then racials are out. They can't exist in this scenario. That is bacause you no longer have "races", but just army comps of various creatures you find along the way.
Now i won't say i like one more over the other, because frankly, i can get behind both of game types. If done properly each of those two game types can work and produce a good and fun game. However to me it's clear that Ubi is going for the first, that is, "racial" type of game.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 10, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Maurice said:
There's a semi-easy solution to the problem: tie it in with Ultimate skills. Each faction should have its own, unique Ultimate skills, which are mutually exclusive in their acquisition and which have a signature that breathes their faction. It depends on the skills selected by the Hero which Ultimates are eventually available to him or her.
Ultimate skills should only loosely depend on the actual creatures of the faction and be able to be applied to other creatures too (perhaps to a lesser degree, depends on the Ultimate in question I guess).
Stuff like Demon Gating and Necro Raise Dead stuff can then be handed over to special structures within Towns, because you want Heroes to get relatively early access to them - sooner than getting an Ultimate skill, in any case. Each faction should get access to something similar in functionality, something that only that faction can apply on the battlefield. You can't use faction buildings in Towns from other factions, even if you've conquered the Town.
Essentially, you get low-level faction signature abilities / skills through the Towns of your faction (which each of your Heroes can apply, regardless of originating faction) and you get high-level faction signature abilities / skills through Hero Ultimate skills which don't depend on the player faction, but rather the Hero's originating faction. This explicitely considers the possibility of hiring Heroes from other factions.
I'm not sure i completely understand your idea (elaborate if i get this wrong) but if i do it seems racials unique for a factions creatures are obtained through buildings and powerful, "hero-racials" or ultimates, are obtained late in the skillwheel? So building-racials can only affect creatures from that town but any hero can use it, while ultimate skills are unique for hero-factions but can benefit any creature but those native to the hero faction get a bit of a stronger effect? i could get behind that, sure but i don't think building abilities should be restricted to the original owner: if you capture the town everything should be yours. overall, i like this idea. i feel it has potential if it's developed a bit more 
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Other.
Mainly coz i didn't see yay or nay option in answers. Here let me ask you a question in return, if i may....
Picture that you are playing H5 (i hope you know H5), and here's the scenario:
Your starting faction is Heaven, but your main hero got killed in first week, so now the strongest hero you have is Orc Barbarian, which you saved from prison. You also conquered early on a dwarven town, which is in this point in game even more developed than your human town (coz of resources on the map). Now your army is ofc a mix of dwarven and heaven units, so Angels and Thanes. But that's not all, because a rather large group of upgraded Mages have also pleaded to join your cause. Ofc who says no to powerfull spellcasters (which are now one of the most powerfull stacks in army to boot), so naturaly they are in there aswell.
Now my question is: Which race are you?
This is ofc only theoretical question ... an experiment if you will. In H5 terms you are not eligiable for any of the racials. So here you see main thing - mixing armies and racial skills are mutualy exclusive. Yes that's right. In fact "racial" only works for units of the same "race". So ofc it would be limited to that race's heroes/towns/units (or all of them combined). If you wanna have racial skills then mixing armies is a no go. Except for one stack or so ... maybe to have 2 champion units ... but that's about it. Basicaly, pick your race at the bigining of game and stick with it.
If on the other hand you wannna mix armies of diferent races and cherry pick your army composition like you would build a deck of MTG cards, then racials are out. They can't exist in this scenario. That is bacause you no longer have "races", but just army comps of various creatures you find along the way.
Now i won't say i like one more over the other, because frankly, i can get behind both of game types. If done properly each of those two game types can work and produce a good and fun game. However to me it's clear that Ubi is going for the first, that is, "racial" type of game.
i think you might've misunderstood what i meant (which is understandable: i might not have been as clear as i hoped) but what i was getting at is i want "racials" too be of the hero. in your example my units should have access to some kind of blood rage as the hero is barbarian and so his racial is what i'll get: in other words i don't want to be limited in my choice of hero based on faction: if i want a barbarian hero in order to utilize blood rage for my dwarven troops, why shouldn't i? Even if it's a weaker version. same thing no matter the factions: why can't i, as a wizard hero, give these angels an artifact to increase their health? removing the demand of creatures being from the same faction as the hero with said ability (artificier in this case) would open up a lot new strategies, especially in h5, like said angel-with-artifact example. very few "racials" have made a lot of sense excepting necromancy (which should be kept exclusive for obvious reasons. add some necro-aligned neutrals though)
i want options no matter what faction my hero happens to be and this is extra important for any game that doesn't allow you to change your towns faction.
changing the name from "racial" to something else might be preferable though...
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 09:22 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
why shouldn't i? Even if it's a weaker version.
Because, then it's not racial anymore. If every race has access to it. It's just another way of saying - remove racials but add more skills. Sure im fine with that, but then all racials should be removed including necromancy. Because let's face it (for example artificier), if only wizzard heroes can learn artificier, then i might recruit that hero just for that, dissmiss him, and hire barbarian for blood rage for eg. In that case it's best if artificier is just a skill like attack or sorcery, that any hero can learn, and is no longer racial. That would be fine i guess.
But if you still have racials, and just remove creature requierments, like i think you were suggesting, i see several problems:
First is the obvious (as mentioned earlier) "racial stacking".
Second is more complicated, and has to do with fact, that factions were designed with racials in mind. Take blood rage from H5 for eg. It's not just simple hp boost to all your creatures, but it's wholesome replacement for magic system other factions have. Shouts, are only a portion of that. Stronghold has completley diferent mechanic than say, Heaven, because of that.
Now to finaly answer to your question from my point of view ... Why can't you have blood rage as a Dwarf and artificier as Barbarian aswell?
Answer is simple - because each faction gets ONE. One "racial" ability. The Necromancy started it - but if the Undead got necromancy, then why other factions wouldn't have that own "special" skills? Necro can raise dead, Dwarf can use runes, Wizzard can craft artifacts, Sylvan has favoured enemy etc.
Necro hero can't make use of necromancy on Vyverns ... why then should Barbarian hero make use of blood rage on Vampires? In other words - Necromancy was first in H3, other were added so other factions can have their own "necromancy".
There was a problem with necromancy in H3. And it was due to the fact, other faction didn't have the equivalent skill. If i started as Necro, all my starting heroes would have that skill. For others it was unobtainable. Now if that skill is powerfull, then others are missing out, coz you get to start with usefull skill. If it's weak however, then Necro player has to work with one lame skill, that takes one place for potentialy good skill.
In other words - my suggestion is this - either keep racials like in H5, or remove them alltogether, necromancy included.
For suggestion that racials would tie in to ultimate ... that realy dosen't change much, but the fact that you get it late in game or not at all - since you won't always get ultimate. Say goodbye to random skills then tho. I disslike idea of having ultimate like in H5 in random setting. If skills are random, then no "requierments" should be enforced. But that's discussion for another topic.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 10, 2014 10:12 PM |
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i get ya, but i don't agree. i think the problem is that we're assuming the "racial" would be tied to faction of town rather than faction of hero. a Haven hero with a necro army would be unable to use necromancy but his troops would get access to whatever skill the haven hero would have. of course it would be useless if it affected morale, but that's besides the point.
anyway, it wouldn't work well in h5 since the game is heavily based on each factions own racial that any changes wouldn't work. however if we base something more on h3 (for examples sake) with racial influences from h5. Let's say wizards could make artifacts and they could give them to any creature. they could only make them in a town with the building for said skill, but as long as they had the creature, building and skill (only available to wizards) it's fine. just a simple addition without any complications. let's say barbarians had access to an ability that gave his troops some extra damage and/or health but didn't get an entire unique spell-system. every hero would start with basic whatever (like in h5) and could choose to expand on that or something else upon leveling up. no longer would you be limited to only using heroes from the faction where you had the most creatures nor would you feel forced to say no to neutrals offer to join you. strategy moves from being forced to use your factions strengths and weaknesses to deciding what type of hero you want to lead them. Your hero wouldn't decide what creature you want anymore, you do.
necro is still a special case since they're undead and living creatures don't like being with them. necro heroes should still be able to use necromancy, but since that racial in particular is harmful for other faction creatures since they reduce their morale and some of their abilities (death cloud for example) are harmful. the necro racial itself was never impossible to use with a haven army, just not useful. restricting some interesting mechanics that could add a metric snow-ton of depth because one class of heroes will not have the same level of choice is to me a bit silly.
TL;DR
all "racials" should be available for use with any creature as it would add a lot of potential depth. Necromancy simply encourages necro creatures more than the others but doesn't stop necro heroes from using other faction creatures.
(oh i like this discution )
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 11, 2014 12:57 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:59, 11 Dec 2014.
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kiryu133 said:
however if we base something more on h3 (for examples sake) with racial influences from h5.
I wouldn't know how but I think this is the way to go. I always loved in homm3 that each hero had a unique ability, but also enjoyed pretty much the racials in homm5. It added just enough this tiny bit of RPG feel, but succeeded unlike in homm4 or in mmh6.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 10:14 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
i think the problem is that we're assuming the "racial" would be tied to faction of town rather than faction of hero.
Well i know where you're comming from but i always view the hero a part of a faction. Or do you usualy start your game with hero that's not your faction? Coz that'll be most likely the main hero of whole game session. Now i admit, that im looking this fully through my personal point of view, so your gaming style may be different. Usualy when you start a game, you get offered 2 heores in tavern (one from your faction, and another random). I almost always buy one hero, that is my faction, first day, so i have more army + 2 heroes to roam and collect loot. Later i use this second hero as a scout, and buy several others throughout the game. Those are from various races. Rareley does it happen that i actualy lose the first initial hero (which can be either of the two i get first day), and that is because if i lose the fight, i simplay flee, and have him available to purchase again.
So the way i see it, only possibility to have miss aligned hero as a main would be to purchase him in that first day. Or atleast resonably early in game. Since those heroes are random, you have no impact on what racaial they would get. If you would "fish" for particular skill you would either have to purchase loads of them until you get heores of desiered faction, or wait it out several weeks.
I know i skipped obvious scenario, when you start let's say heaven, and you see 3 of 4 enemies are inferno for eg. So in theory you have 3 inferno castles vs 1 heaven castle , so it would make sense to "switch" facion. But think about it. If you get to the point where you conquered 3 of 4 enemies with main army, to get their castles, you basicaly won. There's no particualr need to buff the 3 castles and w8 several weeks till you get ultimate inferno army under Heaven hero. The game won't drag that long unless you want to.
And this is why, i think it would be better to have diferent thing than racials in this case....
Galaad said:
I wouldn't know how
And here is where i immagine how ....
There are several ways to make it work actualy:
One is to remove (yes remove) racials, and have them availible as skills - like attack, defence etc. So any hero can pick them up. Knight with artificier? why not. Barbarian with avenger? sweet... (skills would have to be reworked from H5 abviously so they are usefull to all).
Second way is to remove heroe's "race" altogether. When you get a hero, you also pick his "speciality" - be it bringing up the dead, summoning demons or crafting artifacts. Hero pool would work seperate from faction pool altogether.
Or ... have something like this:
Diplomacy:
- Basic: core creatures from other factions can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect.
- Advanced: Core and elite creatures from other factions can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect.
- Expert: All creatures from other factions, as well as neutral creatures can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect
For this to work it requiers to have random skills tho ... so #GURS!
That is because otherwise it would just be mandatory skill anyone will pick, similar than Logistics.
kiryu133 said:
(oh i like this discution)
likewise
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 11, 2014 10:38 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 10:42, 11 Dec 2014.
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Quote:
For this to work it requiers to have random skills tho ... so #GURS!
#GURS indeed 
However, I disagree with your suggestions, I think they should keep it as in H5, it was good. Maybe find other/better racials except for Gating and Necro and improve the skillwheel with Maurice's idea of multiple ultimates.
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cliff_nest
Hired Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 11:19 AM |
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Galaad said:
I always loved in homm3 that each hero had a unique ability, but also enjoyed pretty much the racials in homm5.
Same here
Maurice said:
you get low-level .... through the Towns of your faction
I have a vision of terrifying balancing issue. For the Ultimate I'm all in.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Second way is to remove heroe's "race" altogether. When you get a hero, you also pick his "speciality"
Don't you think it's making thing a little more bland?
I think the racial in H6 had potential they require just a little bit of adapting.
Racial back has passive faction unique skill like H5. If they lacked some think is just design wise. They also offered more option in the skill section.
Steyn said:
Gating could work independent of creature type. Just take the army size or hero spellpower to determine the size of the summoned stack and the skill proficiency to determine the type of demon summoned.
That's one way or if you like the way it was you just have any unit in your army gate the corresponding tier of demon.
Necromancer if it is like H3 should have (and only them) an optional army slot. So if you have skeleton, when u raise any they merge with your existing one. If you have other stack like crossbowman they come to the battlefield. If it like H5 the same slot can be used to raise anything while also restricting you.
Then you could have that racial button you used for racial in H6 be the signature or ultimate has activated abilities. Like those reputation ability or new ones.
On the other hand we could also get a system that was has H5 was to H4 to H3. All we know about it is a mention of paladin class so who knows
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 02:14 PM |
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cliff_nest said:
Don't you think it's making thing a little more bland?
On the contrary, it would give more variety. Idk if you understood what i was suggesting ... That is having any/all heroes available in any/all factions. In common terms ... picking Lord Heart as a hero for dungeon units for eg. It's only one of possible solutions tho.
Galaad said:
However, I disagree with your suggestions, I think they should keep it as in H5, it was good.
All of'em? Sure i like how H5 handles it sawell. I would be perfectly content if H7 has similar system. Hell, racials were one of my favourite features of H5. I was only discussing the possibilities for original topic, which was, how to do away with limitations, that H5 system has. Namely mixing hero and unit types. I also may not been clear enough, and for this i apologize. My diplomacy skill suggestion was envisioned in H5 racial system. Immagine H5 (Tribes of the East), exactly, but with that diplomacy skill (could be diferent named skill).
cliff_nest said:
On the other hand we could also get a system that was has H5 was to H4 to H3. All we know about it is a mention of paladin class so who knows
Ummm ... what? I don't understand what you just said here. And im trying.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 11, 2014 02:14 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
So the way i see it, only possibility to have miss aligned hero as a main would be to purchase him in that first day. Or atleast resonably early in game. Since those heroes are random, you have no impact on what racial they would get.
but you would have an option. a small option between a hero of your own faction with the same racial as your starting hero and a guaranteed beneficial unique ability (increased stats for that creature for example) or a different racial, any racial, possibly with reduced effects and possibly a non-beneficial unique ability (bonus stats for a creature of his faction for example). It's not a big, there are only 2 choices, but it's a choice without a clear answer. you might go for your own faction and be safe with an ability that will aid you, or you might go with the wildcard, otherwise not an option, to maybe get a 1-up on your opponent. This could lead to a lot of strategies and decisions that tie in well with the make-use-of-what-you-got gameplay of pre-h6 games: you don't choose what racial you'll have to choose between, but there will be a choice.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
something like this:
Diplomacy:
- Basic: core creatures from other factions can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect.
- Advanced: Core and elite creatures from other factions can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect.
- Expert: All creatures from other factions, as well as neutral creatures can use your heroes racial ability with reduced effect
For this to work it requiers to have random skills tho ... so #GURS!
That is because otherwise it would just be mandatory skill anyone will pick, similar than Logistics.
i could see this working really well as making diplomacy a viable skill (if situational: you're not always gonna need to pick out trrops of different factions) but i would probably like to see expert remove any reduced effects or add another tier or perk that does. or maybe make so each tier removes penalties with the corresponding tier rather than give them sudden access: i prefer to be able to use a reduced version of blood rage on haven troops without diplomacy rather than not at all.
it would also make specialized heroes more viable as certain perks might even enhance that racial, meaning it could be viable even for heroes already using their own faction creatures.
cliff_nest said:
Necromancer if it is like H3 should have (and only them) an optional army slot. So if you have skeleton, when u raise any they merge with your existing one. If you have other stack like crossbowman they come to the battlefield. If it like H5 the same slot can be used to raise anything while also restricting you.
Then you could have that racial button you used for racial in H6 be the signature or ultimate has activated abilities. Like those reputation ability or new ones.
necro heroes should not get an additional army-slot for 2 reasons: balance and discouraging use of living troops. necromancy in h3 is almost perfect: simple with clear functionality. it shouldn't mix with other factions simply because of the terrible morale penalty and numerous anti-living effects of most undead creatures. an extra army-slot would most likely encourage people to use a necromancer for other armies as it would give them a very large advantage.
the button thing is nice, if a bit off-topic. i also prefer gating to be little more than a glorified summon unique to demon heroes as opposed to being used by the creatures as in h5. nature+death magic in h4 is pretty spot on of what i imagine gating could work like. It's even limited to tiers
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 11, 2014 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:06, 11 Dec 2014.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
All of'em?
Galaad said:
Maybe find other/better racials except for Gating and Necro and improve the skillwheel with Maurice's idea of multiple ultimates.
About diplomacy, I'm not sure... I really think it should be the closest possible to the h5 system
I mean, why completely reinvent a system that has been proven to work well ? Just as h3's, it only needs improvement, not revolution.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 03:56 PM |
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Galaad said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
All of'em?
Sorry about that, was just making a side joke here, that only i can understand
Galaad said:
About diplomacy, I'm not sure... I really think it should be the closest possible to the h5 system
I mean, why completely reinvent a system that has been proven to work well ? Just as h3's, it only needs improvement, not revolution.
I respect your opinion sir, as i think you have a good taste . H5 was a great game indeed.
However - Why "reinvent" a system you ask? This seem to be a common question regarding various topics, so i will answer it generaly, and not to you specificaly - So this is how I personaly think of it:
Well first, this is what this thread is kinda about .... and also, Why not?
I mean - why did we need to (re)invent whole skill-wheel for H5, if H3 skills work just fine? Why reinvent whole Stronghold faction and racials ... if it was just as fine before? Why have core-elite-champion setup if 7 tiers wored good for decades? Or why to have 7 army slots at all - weren't 5 from H1 enough and worked just as well?
It's part of the progress of Heroes as a series. I like H3 and H5 - but i wouldn't want just a copy-paste with new graphics. I personaly like change, if it's implemented and executed properly. I think 3 tier system from H6 was one of it's best additions, and im very happy to see it in H7 also. Yes i liked H4 for the inovations, but they were executed poorly - instead of alternate creatures, we got 2 factions slaped into one etc. Otherwise H4 had the potential to be the greatest game in Heroes history - same with H6 realy - i was at first excited about the possibilities. But execution was poor and it failed. Also H6 dismissed a lot of good changes H5 introduced, like skill-wheel and initiative system, which was actualy counter-productive.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 11, 2014 03:59 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
I'm not sure i completely understand your idea (elaborate if i get this wrong) but if i do it seems racials unique for a factions creatures are obtained through buildings and powerful, "hero-racials" or ultimates, are obtained late in the skillwheel? So building-racials can only affect creatures from that town but any hero can use it, while ultimate skills are unique for hero-factions but can benefit any creature but those native to the hero faction get a bit of a stronger effect? i could get behind that, sure but i don't think building abilities should be restricted to the original owner: if you capture the town everything should be yours. overall, i like this idea. i feel it has potential if it's developed a bit more
Well, more or less, yes.
But building boni should be fairly low level, so it does give a boon to the faction, but isn't overly defining and prominent. For instance, Haven might get a Chapel building that boosts Morale effects in battle (damage bonus, speed bonus, initiative bonus), while Necropolis gets a Necromantic Amplifier that boosts the Necromancy skill, Academy gets Artificers Shops, etc ...
Maybe make it so that the building bonus can only be applied to Heroes of the corresponding faction. So if you have a Haven Hero, he makes full use of Chapels, while they're useless to the Necromancer who just happened to end up in your Hero pool. But hey, when you capture that Necropolis, that Necromancer is suddenly somewhat stronger, since he has access to a Necromantic Amplifier. I'm not entirely happy with it though ... on the other hand, it may be a bit too complex to reduce the effectiveness of those buildings if they don't match the player's faction (in this case for instance, the Amplifier may only be 50% for the Necromancer, since he serves the Haven faction).
This boost from your faction could (should?) apply to all units in your army, even if they're of a different faction than the leading Hero. But, like you suggested, to a lesser degree for off-faction units (and maybe even absent for creatures from opposing factions). Details subject to design of course.
Ultimate skills should be tied to the faction of the Hero in question and each faction should have several viable ones, aimed at the concept of the faction. So for Haven Heroes that means that Ultimate skills should focus on the concept of Light and Discipline. For Necromancers, those skills should focus on Dark and Death & Decay. This counts even if for instance a Necropolis player hires a Haven Hero one way or another; the Ultimate skills available to that Hero are still those of any other Haven Hero. That he serves Necropolis doesn't matter.
When a Hero is used within their own faction, the low level faction boost may (but doesn't have to) have synergy with the high level Hero Ultimate skill.
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