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| Thread: Dervish |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2014 01:42 PM |
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Poll Question:
Dervish
Back in 2009, "Ubisoft" came up with an idea of a new Academy creature for "Heroes VI" - Dancing Dervish. The unit was finally revealed in "The Ashan Compendium" and made her appearance in the "Duel of Champions" game.
To my mind, Dervish is an original and very interesting creature, she should be included in the future Academy line-ups. Of course, there are also opinions against Dervish, and I’d like to comment on them.
"Dervish is an "out-of-place" unit for Academy". Can’t really understand the reason. Her appearance fits the common style of Academy, her skill to move objects with the power of thought suits the mystic theme that is essential for Wizards.
"No martial arts warriors among Academy troops". The same point here: Dervish uses not physical strength, but telekinesis.
"Dervish is a Blade Dancer’s copy". I’m going to prove that this statement is wrong by providing a list of possible special attributes which Dervish may possess.
1. Shooter (unlimited amount of shots as the blades return to Dervish after hitting their target)
2. No Range Penalty
3. No Retaliation (enemies don’t retaliate to the melee attacks of Dervish)
4. Mass Attack (Dervish hits all adjacent enemies with her melee attacks)
5. Steel Vortex, affix #1 (melee attackers receive might damage from the blades when hitting Dervish) - passive
6. Steel Vortex, affix #2 (chance to reduce non-magic damage inflicted by enemy ranged attacks, %) - passive
7. Dexterity (chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks, %) - passive
8. Telekinesis (ability to move objects on the battlefield) - active
So, what’s your opinion about Dervish now? Does she fit Academy and deserve to appear in its line-up?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 12, 2014 02:44 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:25, 14 Dec 2014.
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I totally agree with you that Dervish fits without a problem Academy town. The main problem I see in its implementation is tied with how Academy is generally designed, moreover regarding the whole Constructs/repair constructs feature introduced in homm5. There is the Gremlin/Cabir unit which repaired Golems and this element is even reinforced in upcoming mmh7 as they now repair Gargoyles too. Why do I think this is a problem, because then with the actual faction's mechanism it doesn't have a spot for Core units. However, I hear you replying that the unit would fit better in Elite tier, and I do agree, Dervish + Disciples could have a nice Magic combo that I would personally find more relevant than the construct thing regarding the fact that it is the Wizard Town we are speaking about. But then, it would be likely to replace Djinn, which I would be strongly opposed to. Djinns are really nice creatures for Academy and tied to the faction since homm3. So I see two possibilities : make the Djinn male and stronger looking enough so it could replace the Rakshasa, and we would have Dervish (female, slim), Djinn (male, strong looking) and Disciple (still awesome in its flying carpet) which would be a really awesome Elite tier regarding the faction according to me. The other possibility I see would be to upgrade Djinn to the alternate champion slot (make him vers strong and powerful as in homm2), then Dervish, Rakshasa and Disciples works too in the Elite.
Well after this last reflexion, the construct thing in Core doesn't seem to be a problem lol, so yeah definitely in favor of Dervish, as long as it doesn't kicks out Djinn from the lineup.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2014 03:11 PM |
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Maybe the problem with all these construct things can be solved by placing them into different tiers? I mean we can have Cabir / Gremlin, Dervish and Gargoyle in Core, Disciple, Golem and Rakshasa in Elite, Djinn and Titan in Champion.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 12, 2014 03:58 PM |
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Having the Dervish in core to the benefit of Golem going elite ? And Djinn as alternate champ ? I think you just nailed it 
Only thing that remains now is to make the Titan's design less close to the Golem.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 12, 2014 04:38 PM |
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Of course, historically they were male, there were no female dervishes and the dance was a religious ritual to reach god. Here in the screenshots, it's more like a table dancer. When you know the origin, the whole concept is quite out of proportion like taking a Franciscan monk whipping himself and turning him into a domina lady with a horsewhip but whatever...
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
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posted December 12, 2014 04:51 PM |
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I wouldn't want this unit, there are far too many human or humanoid units in the recent heroes games for my liking.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 12, 2014 04:56 PM |
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artu said:
When you know the origin, the whole concept is quite out of proportion like taking a Franciscan monk whipping himself and turning him into a domina lady with a horsewhip but whatever...
ROFL  Should be renamed then 
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2014 05:13 PM |
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"Diablo III" also has Dervishes in desert locations, but they are actually spirits. Here is the concept.
Quote:
Of course, historically they were male, there were no female dervishes and the dance was a religious ritual to reach god. Here in the screenshots, it's more like a table dancer. When you know the origin, the whole concept is quite out of proportion like taking a Franciscan monk whipping himself and turning him into a domina lady with a horsewhip but whatever...
Quote:
Should be renamed then
Agree on this point. Something like Juggler would be quite suitable, I suppose.
Quote:
Only thing that remains now is to make the Titan's design less close to the Golem.
The original myth about Golem claims it was made of living matter and could restore itself. Maybe these characteristics could be taken into consideration in order to change its appearance and essence in "Heroes".
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2014 06:05 PM |
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My dream line-up
My "dream" Academy line-up would look like this:
Core:
Cabir
Dervish
Golem
Elite:
Roc
Mage
Raksasha
Champion:
Titan
Djinn
Gargoyles are "ok", but not too interesting. After all- what special abilities you could give them? Total magic immunity should be reversed for just Black Dragons, that's their traditional ability. The lack of Core fliers also reinforces Academy's image as the ultimate ranged & magic faction. Dervishes should be fast and fragile, perhaps really working in sync with Magi/Disciples. At most, they should be spellcasters (with a different spell set than Magi), perhaps being able to cast Teleport once or twice a combat.
Also, Djinn as a Champion spellcaster would be perfect IMHO (and Dungeon should have Faceless as a Champion spellcaster, as their dark counterpart).
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Darkem
Known Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 11:59 AM |
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Edited by Darkem at 15:49, 13 Dec 2014.
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I'm more than sure that I've commented in this thread before... Anyway, I never liked the idea of Dervish, but after your explanation I grew to like it.
As we all know, Academy lineup is extremely crowded and we crave for new units as much as we love the old ones.
Personally, I'd like to see more twists and "new versions" of genies (djinns), titans and golems rather than have them copied from previous installments. That's the reason I've thought about Dervish-Genie, combination of NEW and OLD.
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 14, 2014 01:08 AM |
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They are Blade Dancer copy-cats by concept. Fast but fragile blade user. We already have too many blade users: blade dancers, Rakshasas, Kenshi.
Also, I don't think they would fit Academy at all. Yes, they look middle-eastern but they can just do that with any other creature. The only humans in Academy should be the mages, nothing else. They are not constructs, they are not magical beings, they are not magical users, they are not a creature made by wizards, therefore, they don't fit Academy at all.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 14, 2014 01:18 AM |
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Dervishes are okay as a concept, but they'd be competing with too many more worthy creatures to be included. If we ever have something like 10 or 11 creatures per town, they'd merit inclusion, but as things are now, they're unnecessary.
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Eccentric Opinion
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 14, 2014 04:04 AM |
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I would have loved them. But i wouldnt know wtf put them. The rest of creatures either are iconic or i like them or they are needed. I hope we get some "dervish" hero tho.
That dervish djinn looks flawless btw.
I really feel like all the faction creatures that arent going to be included should be neutrals. Dervishes, Unicorns, Griffins, etc.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted December 14, 2014 09:16 AM |
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Thank you for this topic.
I like to see someone giving this underrated unit some spotlight it in my eyes deserves.
The concept of the Dervish always interested me since I first saw it. It was a breeze of fresh air in a faction that is badly in the need of some innovation.
My words may be too hard? Well they are based on the fact that since H3 the faction undergone minimal to no changes, and most of them were cosmetic ones (Naga->Rakshasa, Gremlin->Cabir). So the only real changes were in H4 and CoH, where gargoyles were replaced by Dwarves/Disciples, and H4/6 where there were 8 unit slots.
Now to the unit itself. The design itself is very potent, much more than the Bladedancers/skirmishers who might be a similar unit at first sight. It is not a simple fast humanoid with 1-2 blades, it is a dancing mage with a dager tornado around its body. Just from this you can come up with several different abilities.
Just few of them
- Blade shield: Units that attack Dervish gain minor damage
- Unlimited retaliation:
I'm not saying this unit is "the next big thing" I just like the concept.
My idea of the unit is something on the line of a fast unit, with low/min HP a semi-range (let's call it reach) attack, limited to only few spaces (3-5) and an evision ability reducing ranged dmg. Nothing more. Simple yet interesting and unusual.
When it commes to the unit's line-up position I can only see it as core. And my opinions on the problem how to fit it in are:
Drop the gargoyle: The most appealing option to me as this unit is, for me, the least needed in the current line-up.
Drop the Mage, make Golem elite: This was my original idea back when we speculated on how the line-up could look. Mages would be restricted to heroes and their abilities would be shifted to the Djinns.
Drop the Simurgh, make Golem elite, make Rakshasa Champion: If there is one elite unit I can see as a champion it's the Rakshasa, The only problem here, would be that it could be to similar to Sword master.
My personal choice would be the first.
One thing I do not understand are some opinions that are against the unit. The most dazzling one is that the concept is not true to the source of the concept. This is fantasy, from it's nature we take an existing concept and change to make it stand out. There are so many dervarions in all M&M games, that the idea to list them would just take to much time
The next is the problem of dropping Iconic units. Especially now, in H7 where some iconic units will be missing in most the factions we know right now (Gryffin, Unicorn, partially the Manticore, but she is not that iconic). I know people love their old faithful units, but without a drastic cut, no new trees can grow.
As a conclusion. The Dervish in my eyes is one of the more interesting concepts of Ubi's world and more units like this are needed to make the games stand out. No more WH copies and direct implementation of ancient myths. Those are the ways to go.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 14, 2014 11:01 AM |
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mvassilev said:
Dervishes are okay as a concept, but they'd be competing with too many more worthy creatures to be included. If we ever have something like 10 or 11 creatures per town, they'd merit inclusion, but as things are now, they're unnecessary.
Hear. Hear.
I've been complaining about the 7-creature limit being exceptionally constricting since before HVI, so I won't go into this. Us getting 8 now is a start, but I'd prefer bigger steps in this.
But as far as I am concerned Mvass hit the nail on the head. Untill we get more breathing space to add more units, there are more deserving units than the Dervish.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 14, 2014 11:03 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:24, 14 Dec 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Untill we get more breathing space to add more units, there are more deserving units than the Dervish.
Gargoyles could easily go back to Dungeon, IMO. Though I support the idea of having one extra creature for core and elite tiers to choose from.
Dave_Jame said:
Drop the Mage
How dare you 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 14, 2014 11:33 AM |
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Galaad said:
Gargoyles could easily go back to Dungeon, IMO. Though I support the idea of having one extra creature for core and elite tiers to choose from.
I was never to fond of the gargoyle in Academy either, though I do find it's current design quite fitting.
But despite that, I'd sooner add Dragon Golems and Taweret before I'd give the Derwish a go.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 14, 2014 12:17 PM |
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Quote:
They are Blade Dancer copy-cats by concept. Fast but fragile blade user.
Any problems with your reading skills?
Quote:
Dervishes are okay as a concept, but they'd be competing with too many more worthy creatures to be included.
Magic Eagle, for example. 
@Dave_Jame
Can't agree more!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 15, 2014 12:43 AM |
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Omg i had forgotten the taweret. Id drop the rakshasa in a second for her.
I disagree about the more deserving units thing tho. There has to be some iconicism but not to the level where you cant let new units in. The problem here is that ALL the units are iconic and 4 of 8 units here are both iconic AND designed to be synergize with some other (the cabir and the constructs)
A part of me wishes they had gone for a mostly new Academy based more in magic and myth than "technomagic" just to have those DoC units
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 15, 2014 08:00 AM |
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SepSpring said:
Quote:
They are Blade Dancer copy-cats by concept. Fast but fragile blade user.
Any problems with your reading skills?
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any problem with understanding logic?
Dervishes are a lot like Blade Dancers, only different flavor, you know what I mean?
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