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| Thread: Talk about Neutrals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad 
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 01, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Heligrin said:
In H3 Griffins were level 3 units.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 02:08 PM |
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Griffins are literally everything now - Champions in CoH, Elite in H6, Core in H7
They weaken every game.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 01, 2015 02:11 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Griffins are literally everything now - Champions in CoH, Elite in H6, Core in H7
They weaken every game.
you should've seen the h3-4 buff. damn...
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 03:34 PM |
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verriker said:
pretty much what Galaad said, I'm perfectly aware what the new tiers are, but a core tier unit is still not the same as a level 3 unit lol
Griffins were level 3 units, but for whatever reason you couldn't build their dwelling without building the level 4 units' dwelling first lol
Galaad said:
That's wrong. Before the core/elite/tier system was implemented, there was a much more significant difference between the levels. A level 1 unit was way weaker than a level 3 unit.
And since want to speak about H3, griffins were level 4 unit there, as in H5, so it should be part of elite tier, just as in H6.
You could out right skip the Archers' Tower. Does that mean that Swordsman is actually a tier 2 unit? And if so, wouldn't that make the Griffin... a tier 3, being built after a tier 2 unit?
So, were Rocs in H3 tier 3, because they only needed the Wolf Pen, the tier two building, to be built? And did that make the Behemoth tier 4, since they only needed our now tier 3 Roc?
I wouldn't say so. Griffins had the stats of a tier 3 unit: health in the 15-30 range, attack and defense in the 7-10 range, damage around 5, weekly pop growth of about 7, cost about 200. Compare to our supposed "tier 3, maybe tier 2" swordsman, who had 30 health, attack and defense around 11 damage around 8, cost of 300, and only 4 population. I didn't know that build order trumped stats when it came to the power of a creature.
I understand that "core" didn't just straight uplift the 1 2 and 3 tiers and put them together: they buffed all of them to about the same power. To which I see as about tier 3 anyways, maybe a bit less towards tier 2. Elites seem to be in the middle of tiers 5 and 6 in general, and champs still seem to be about tier 7. (All compared to H3)
And I get that the core and elite system makes it so that units stack up differently, but my point is, Griffins, stat wise, in H3, were weaker than 4/7s of pretty much all units in the game, while on par with about 1/7 and usually better than 2/7. Now, in H7, Griffins seem to be weaker than... seemingly 5/8s of all units in the game, but on par with about 3/8. They are now in the lower rungs of the stat ladder than they were in H6 and H5 (and definitely in Clash of Heroes), which is still similar to H3.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 04:10 PM |
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Weren't there a mention that the 3rd unit in core and elite tiers is going to be stronger than the other? If the griffins are core, then they might be a that kind of core creature.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 01, 2015 04:36 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 16:37, 01 Apr 2015.
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Protolisk said:
You could out right skip the Archers' Tower. Does that mean that Swordsman is actually a tier 2 unit? And if so, wouldn't that make the Griffin... a tier 3, being built after a tier 2 unit?
So, were Rocs in H3 tier 3, because they only needed the Wolf Pen, the tier two building, to be built? And did that make the Behemoth tier 4, since they only needed our now tier 3 Roc?
I wouldn't say so. Griffins had the stats of a tier 3 unit: health in the 15-30 range, attack and defense in the 7-10 range, damage around 5, weekly pop growth of about 7, cost about 200. Compare to our supposed "tier 3, maybe tier 2" swordsman, who had 30 health, attack and defense around 11 damage around 8, cost of 300, and only 4 population. I didn't know that build order trumped stats when it came to the power of a creature.
uh I think you misunderstood what I was saying there, sorry if you inferred I was suggesting the Griffin is secretly a tier 4, wasn't trying to suggest that at all lol, just meaning to explain why Galaad could have mixed it up because the build order was unconventional
my main point anyway was, the fast dragonfly of Heroes 3 probably wouldn't be the same fast dragonfly at all under the Ubisoft regime - it'd be crippled - so the comparison doesn't really work
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 04:50 PM |
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griffins are elite, no doubts of that, i cant even imagine them as core units, so wrong to think that way. question is will they be equal to strongest elite or regular elite. thinking other factions, i think they should be just as good as wyverns in thier own way.
another example of plant-animal-creature hybrid. btw i have an original idea in my mind but i have to draw it to show  will post it n future.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 05:05 PM |
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verriker said:
uh I think you misunderstood what I was saying there, sorry if you inferred I was suggesting the Griffin is secretly a tier 4, wasn't trying to suggest that at all lol, just meaning to explain why Galaad could have mixed it up because the build order was unconventional
my main point anyway was, the fast dragonfly of Heroes 3 probably wouldn't be the same fast dragonfly at all under the Ubisoft regime - it'd be crippled - so the comparison doesn't really work
I may have, but Galaad did seem to think griffins were tier 4 in H3, when although they were built after Swordsman, that didn't mean they were tier 4. This was the case in H5 though, where they were tier 4 due to stats.
Although I don't think you understood why Kiryu posted a dragonfly in the first place. The purpose was not to show how the dragonfly might be in Ubisofts HoMM, but instead to show an extremely fast, but weaker, unit. It is now known that Griffins are weaker than before, being in the lower rungs of strength, a core unit, but is super fast. Galaad thought it weird that there would be a core unit that would be so fast. But that was exactly what the Dragonfly was: a weak unit (which would be about core level now) but was so extremely fast, it could go first in most match ups and fly around the battlefield almost unhindered, only matched by Efreet and the powerful tier 7 units. This super-fast weak unit is not without precedent. And neither is the Griffin being a weaker unit also without precedent.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 01, 2015 05:16 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 17:19, 01 Apr 2015.
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Protolisk said:
I may have, but Galaad did seem to think griffins were tier 4 in H3, when although they were built after Swordsman, that didn't mean they were tier 4. This was the case in H5 though, where they were tier 4 due to stats.
Although I don't think you understood why Kiryu posted a dragonfly in the first place. The purpose was not to show how the dragonfly might be in Ubisofts HoMM, but instead to show an extremely fast, but weaker, unit. It is now known that Griffins are weaker than before, being in the lower rungs of strength, a core unit, but is super fast. Galaad thought it weird that there would be a core unit that would be so fast. But that was exactly what the Dragonfly was: a weak unit (which would be about core level now) but was so extremely fast, it could go first in most match ups and fly around the battlefield almost unhindered, only matched by Efreet and the powerful tier 7 units. This super-fast weak unit is not without precedent. And neither is the Griffin being a weaker unit also without precedent.
Galaad mixed it up, which he openly admitted before your post, lol
and nope, that's exactly what I read and understood, and that's why I pointed out they're not particularly weak and are more analogous to somewhere between core and elite (tending towards elite) than actual core lol
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 05:31 PM |
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verriker said:
Galaad mixed it up, which he openly admitted before your post, lol
and nope, that's exactly what I read and understood, and that's why I pointed out they're not particularly weak and are more analogous to somewhere between core and elite than actual core lol
The only responses I see are him clearly saying griffins are tier 4, or seemingly laughing at someone who still thought that griffins were tier 3 (or whatever this face shows . Perhaps that means he caught his mistake, but I don't see it.)
Compared to creatures even in their own tier, Dragonflies were only more healthy than Grand Elves and Wraiths, equal to Orc Chieftains, weaker than the rest. It's attack is 8, which is rather low among other tier 3 where the range is 7-10, defense is actually pretty high at 10, with one of the worst damage ranges minimizing at 2 (tied for lowest with Orc Chieftain) and maximum of 5, which is also the lowest maximum damage score, though tied with many for this. They cost 240 gold, which was about even, but compared to their so far stat equivalent Orc Chieftain they cost 80 more gold, about 50% higher. This I suppose covers the cost of the bonus 6 defense compared to the Chieftain. Their claims to fame are having the highest population (which makes them pretty expensive for a full weeks worth, but they have the potential to be the biggest) highest speed, and their weakness special. Yes, they aren't totally weak, but with base stats they are mediocre at best, with only the speed and weakness special to save them. Weakness is pretty good, and so is speed. These saved them and made them good instead of mediocre.
Which, if these griffins keep Unlimited retaliation, and are super fast... then they'd be kinda like Dragon Flies. A good ability and super fast speed makes them good.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted April 01, 2015 05:32 PM |
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Just to spice things up.
Ashan Serpent fly
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 05:36 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Just to spice things up.
Ashan Serpent fly
Extremely weak, low cost, no special. Complete opposite of the H3 Dragon Fly, though I guess since you can use it almost instantly it is "fast".
I guess Ubisoft did make them crippled in that game, but the fact is the Dragon Fly, will still being a lower tier fast beast, was still an overall effective unit. Which the Griffin in H7 can be.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 05:45 PM |
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so wyvern + gnoll + baslisk in stronghold.. best faction + best designs of H7 by far, but meanwhile its also a confirmation of no lizard fortress comeback. it could be much better then those naga faction of japanese... and now i also see that sanctuarified cute serpent fly...
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 01, 2015 06:08 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Weakness is pretty good, and so is speed. These saved them and made them good instead of mediocre.
"pretty good speed"!?
those things were only out sped by tier 7 super-speeders! snowers flew circles around everything including almost everyone in tier 6 (flew circles around those too)! they were insane and my favourite unit with ease(until justicar)!
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 06:32 PM |
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cleglaw said:
so wyvern + gnoll + baslisk in stronghold.. best faction + best designs of H7 by far, but meanwhile its also a confirmation of no lizard fortress comeback. it could be much better then those naga faction of japanese... and now i also see that sanctuarified cute serpent fly...
But would you really want that....? I love h3 fortress, and I really like the ideas that WO has given in his ashan ziggurat faction but...
If they're going to spread the awesome units of h3 fortress around I wouldn't want them to still bring back a lizardmen faction. Put lizardmen and dragon fly in sanctuary, maybe even gorgen. Then we have room for a completely new faction instead of asking them to revive a lost one. Gives them room to be creative, and I like fortress and Sanctuary so I'm sure they won't disappoint.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 01, 2015 08:35 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Which, if these griffins keep Unlimited retaliation, and are super fast... then they'd be kinda like Dragon Flies. A good ability and super fast speed makes them good.
I believe they lost that to wolves.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 01, 2015 09:09 PM |
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Protolisk said:
The only responses I see are him clearly saying griffins are tier 4, or seemingly laughing at someone who still thought that griffins were tier 3 (or whatever this face shows . Perhaps that means he caught his mistake, but I don't see it.)
(When you see the code for that emoticon, it is : blush : ...
Yes I mixed it up, and yes I admitted I was wrong and was embarrassed about it.)
Sorts said:
Weren't there a mention that the 3rd unit in core and elite tiers is going to be stronger than the other? If the griffins are core, then they might be a that kind of core creature.
Yes there was a mention like that, as I understood it it would mean this time we would have more of a 5 tier system (1-2/3/4-5/6/7-8). So what you say is fairly plausible.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 09:34 PM |
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Galaad said:
(When you see the code for that emoticon, it is : blush : ...
Yes I mixed it up, and yes I admitted I was wrong and was embarrassed about it.)
Okay, I am sorry. It looks to me like a face of someone holding back laughter, not one of embarrassment. Sorry for my confusion.
So, a different problem. I heard quote of there being some 100+ creatures in the game. While this sounds quite fantastic, I have a feeling they are counting each upgrade as a different unit, yes? Since its 8 units * 2 because they get upgraded * 6 because of the faction number, that's already 96 units. Plus the griffins, and the three known elemental... that would be 100 right there. Just add water, and we'd get the touted 100+. Are there any other units slated to be entered? Do we know of any others?
As much as I would love it though, if they didn't count upgrades... in order to reach that 100+ they'd need more than 48 extra neutrals. which would be mind boggling. Which is why I feel that isn't going to happen.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 09:40 PM |
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Well, I belive neutrals could be off the tier loop completly. Power of griffins could be anywhere between elite and core. If you would be able to recruit them from a dwelling (and you should), the price/growth can compensate that. Alltho from my experience, I tend not to recruit neutrals in army for prolonged time. In H3 I used them the most, when I was creeping to quickly boost army and have more "meat shield" so my actual faction troops were unharmed. In H5 I hardly used them.
That said, I would like griffin to be more of elite creture. He is much bigger and fearsome than a wolf or spearman. To make them "dragon flys" is not good imo. I realy didn't like their tier 3 status in HoMM 3. I always felt they were there by mistake, and that swordsman and griffin should swap places. They were among the stronger tier 3 tho.
I realy would like to see something wild in neutrals. Something stronger than Champion tier. Like the neutral dragons of H3.
EDIT: Yea, they most likely count the upgrades. There's no way we would get 50 or so extra neutral creatures lol. When you think about it like that, you would see 100 is realy not that big of a number. That's just Ubi spinning the words for the propaganda. However if you add like 10 more neutrals, you have around 110 units, which is also 100+. And that 10 neutrals is quite a lot. I only hope this would be the case tho. But they did rework a Lich and Vampire, already so extra resources were spend there instead of on 2-3 more neutrals.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 02:18 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Well, I belive neutrals could be off the tier loop completly. Power of griffins could be anywhere between elite and core. If you would be able to recruit them from a dwelling (and you should), the price/growth can compensate that. Alltho from my experience, I tend not to recruit neutrals in army for prolonged time. In H3 I used them the most, when I was creeping to quickly boost army and have more "meat shield" so my actual faction troops were unharmed. In H5 I hardly used them.
That said, I would like griffin to be more of elite creture. He is much bigger and fearsome than a wolf or spearman. To make them "dragon flys" is not good imo. I realy didn't like their tier 3 status in HoMM 3. I always felt they were there by mistake, and that swordsman and griffin should swap places. They were among the stronger tier 3 tho.
I realy would like to see something wild in neutrals. Something stronger than Champion tier. Like the neutral dragons of H3.
EDIT: Yea, they most likely count the upgrades. There's no way we would get 50 or so extra neutral creatures lol. When you think about it like that, you would see 100 is realy not that big of a number. That's just Ubi spinning the words for the propaganda. However if you add like 10 more neutrals, you have around 110 units, which is also 100+. And that 10 neutrals is quite a lot. I only hope this would be the case tho. But they did rework a Lich and Vampire, already so extra resources were spend there instead of on 2-3 more neutrals.
The fact that since neutrals aren't really in a faction exempts them from normal "core elite champion" rules seems fine, as you say, if price is still reasonable. Perhaps with the caravan system you'd be likely to recruit neutrals more often? If they are delivered to my door, instead of having to round them up all the time, I'd recruit them more often if I already flagged the dwelling.
And indeed, the griffins should have some strength behind them, as they do seem like they should be more powerful than a wolf, even if trained (except the upgraded wolves aren't even trained at all, just kinda "let loose".) I wasn't saying they should only be the "dragon flies" of H7, but instead that its still reasonable for a generally weak (in comparison to upper tiers) creature to move super fast. And if they still do have Unlimited Retaliation (yes, the Wolves have that too... what does it matter? Brute and Golem both have Unfettered.) then a good tactic would be to just fly them into a shooter nest and watch as your enemies try to remove the sudden griffin infestation they seem to have.
We did kinda have the "better neutral than your best faction unit" in all games since H3, but they never really were as feasible (in before people thing those dragons back then were reasonably feasible to begin with) as those dragons. The Mega Dragon, I think, in H4, and the phoenix in H5 and 6, were better than their the rest of their respective tier, but they didn't have the punch of an Azure Dragon, or if they were, they weren't recruit-able at all. I remember in the description for something that there was a joke that certain golden dragons exist. Though that may make it seem like "light is right", as they'd likely be Elrath descendants, I'd love to have them. But I'd like to recruit them as well as fight them...
Yeah, I am pretty sure they are counting upgrades, because 48 neutrals is a lot of units. It'd literally be 6 more factions worth of dudes.  But, yeah, I'd like there to be more than just a pittance of neutrals beyond the "required" elementals, and a wolf (but now the wolf is a griffin). I'd also like if they upgrade; I think I heard someone say griffins upgrade. If that's the case, great! But I hope others do too. I remember the Sharpshooters and Enchanters that could be "upgraded" to, but were locked out for 99% of the game. I wish you could bring a, I dunno, mermaid to a Hill fort and get a Siren or something. But just how big will that 100+ stretch?
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