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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 12, 2015 08:02 PM |
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Avonu said:
1. I think I read long ago that there were 7 Dark Elves clans (and we know only 3 of them). Anyone remember anything about this or I remember this information wrong?
I don't remember any of that info  Never seen it.
But, we had Eruina's unnamed clan. Maybe this counts as 4th.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 12:27 AM |
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Avonu said:
As for Sandro and Markal - I think Markal actions in CoH is when Sandro first heard about him and took as his apprentice:
Quote:
You proved your potential in Heresh, when you manipulated that Unicorn girl. It is now time for you to infiltrate the court of the Holy Emperor. My plan is now entering its final phase, and you, my young apprentice, will be an essential part of it. So, Markal, are you ready to embrace your destiny?
I just looked for Danse Macabre's ending and I didn’t think it was an actual line in the game! It honestly appeared more like fan writing...
Now, the image I get from these events is not fully clear now - was he opposing Ludmilla on his own, or was he Sandro's agent? Maybe it was a bit of both actually, and while Sandro was teaching him, he was still driven by his own ambition?
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 04:28 AM |
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Maybe both. Lucretia fall down was instigated by Sandro iirc so he could come to manipulate her into helping him to get the mask. It could be possible that Markal's idea was subtly instigated by Sandro
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 13, 2015 07:23 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 07:24, 13 Mar 2015.
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I think it were times, when Sandro has less power then in H6 or Heroes Online (he was defeated in HO and lost much of his forces and there was War of Broken Staff), so his influence was weaker and Ludmilla simply used opportunity to rule Heresh. She was a memeber of Spider Cult (after all she helped Vein and Belketh in H6:50SoP), so she and Void Order should be enemies by default. Ludmilla however was more interested in power and this is what turned her in hands of chaos and 8th Dragon.
Quote:
Ludmilla: The might of Heresh has been diluted, the ways of the Necromancers tainted and weakened. I will be the one to return us to the true path! But I need more power to do it...
Fiona: Who is this Lordess you keep mentioning?
Markal: She is a blasphemer, a power-hungry fool! She schemes to twist Necromancy to her will. But I shall deal with her in time.
Fiona: Ludmilla! You collaborate with demons, allying yourself with the creatures that took everything from me! I will do whatever it takes to see that you share their grave.
Ludmilla: Demons? I do no such thing, ghost! I am fighting to return Heresh back to its proper destiny.
Fiona: Your wizard allies scheme with demons under your nose, and your ambition blinds you to it!
Markal: You are too foolish to realize that in your mad grasp for power you have become their servant!
Markal in Clash clearly seems to be Asha's servant (he even metnion her during dialogues) as opposed to typical Void Order "all Dragon Gods must vanish!" member and Ludmilla is simple power-hungry necromacer idiot, which wants to bring "their formers days of glory". I think only after CoH event Markal became Sandro appreantice.
And back to ghosts discusion - Fiona was separated from her body, when she was wounded and crossed magic portal created by Nadia's mother - so this portal could be a factor which "turned" her into ghost.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 08:13 AM |
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Avonu said:
Markal in Clash clearly seems to be Asha's servant (he even metnion her during dialogues) as opposed to typical Void Order "all Dragon Gods must vanish!" member and Ludmilla is simple power-hungry necromacer idiot, which wants to bring "their formers days of glory". I think only after CoH event Markal became Sandro appreantice.
I think you forgot that Markal mentions Asha all the time in Heroes V, while obviously not being exactly the most faithful of necromancers...
This whole dedication to Asha was mostly just an act, that was meant to have people look at his necromantic practices in a better light - recall that he introduces his powers to Isabel as a gift of Asha, rather than unholy magics of the Void.
It obviously served to have others side with him, and it worked. He helped Fiona, in order to get her to his side. He introduced his enemy as the one in the wrong, and the fact that her allies were secretly demon cultists only helped. Similarly, he managed to convince Isabel to conquer 'godless' wizards without mentioning that he used to be a high-ranking member of the order seeking to bring down said gods.
Truth be told, while these declarations of faith are obviously false, I can't help but feel he never really cared much for Sandro's cause either - to me, it is apparent that Markal mostly sought power, with or without the Dragon Gods, even if he did respect his master, admiring how far he intended to reach.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted March 13, 2015 10:04 AM |
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Avonu said:
Ludmilla however was more interested in power and this is what turned her in hands of chaos and 8th Dragon.
Wait, what? 8th Dragon?  When did this happen?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 13, 2015 10:29 AM |
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Sligneris said:
I just looked for Danse Macabre's ending and I didn’t think it was an actual line in the game! It honestly appeared more like fan writing...
Look carefully again, there's this line of text.
+ I don't think Markal used Void powers to bring back Nicolai, it was Ritual of the Night.
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@Avonu - I believe Markal never became a member of the Void Order. Sandro needed "normal" agents as well, alive and breathing. + Markal mentions Asha all the time in H5.
It also rises the question of what was Sandro's final plan. Markal knew about the Order, but he never mentioned Dragon's demise.
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Sleeping_Sun said:
[Wait, what? 8th Dragon? When did this happen?
Clash of Heroes. Azh-Rafir tried to become 8th Dragon, but failed ^_^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 13, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 11:08, 13 Mar 2015.
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Azh-Rafir: I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
@Sandro400
Well, there wasn't any Void Order in Dark Messiah cycle (HoMM5, DM, CoH), so no wonder Markal didn't say anything about it.
The problem is that he was an apprentice of Sandro from the begining of Ashan lore and now, after H6, we know, that Sandro = Void = Asha must die*  it seems very strange to have "Asha uses all" Markal, who is also Sandro agent.
*Ok, maybe not "Asha must die" per se but "Elrath must die".
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted March 13, 2015 11:01 AM |
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Avonu said:
Azh-Rafir: I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Don't forget their dog.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
I don't think Markal used Void powers to bring back Nicolai, it was Ritual of the Night.
I believe Markal never became a member of the Void Order. Sandro needed "normal" agents as well, alive and breathing. + Markal mentions Asha all the time in H5.
It also rises the question of what was Sandro's final plan. Markal knew about the Order, but he never mentioned Dragon's demise.
Markal did use Ritual of the Night, but he needed Sandro's artifacts, imbued with the powers of the Void, to rip Nicolai's soul out of the Spirit Realm, something Necromancers aren't usually capable of doing.
That being said, members of the Order of the Void were varied - it did not include Necromancers alone, so you're not wrong about Sandro's agents.
I picture Markal as more of a pupil and apprentice rather than an agent though - he was an adept in the arts of Necromancy who helped his master, while posing to others as Asha's servant, but he also had his own goals and ambitions, making him one of the most independent people under Sandro.
Markal was alive in H5, and in CoH, but he's far from 'normal', as he's a necromancer through and through.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 13, 2015 11:17 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Avonu said:
Azh-Rafir: I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Don't forget their dog.
Scrappy?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 13, 2015 11:50 AM |
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Avonu said:
Well, there wasn't any Void Order in Dark Messiah cycle (HoMM5, DM, CoH), so no wonder Markal didn't say anything about it.
The problem is that he was an apprentice of Sandro from the begining of Ashan lore and now, after H6, we know, that Sandro = Void = Asha must die* it seems very strange to have "Asha uses all" Markal, who is also Sandro agent.
I agree about that, but I think we should at least try to view on things from in-world perspective as well. It's true this whole Void thingy wasn't even thought out, but it doesn't mean that Markal's words in H5 became less logical or even wrong.
Being an apprentice of Sandro doesn't mean that said apprentice will be a Nethermancer. Maybe Markal admired Sandro's intellect and power, but didn't agree about killing Dragons?
While H5's visuals are generally scraped, its lore isn't. There was one line from Markal about Lorekeep:
Markal said:
Lorekeep was a mighty center of magic, dedicated to the most elusive of Asha's teachings. Had mad king Oleg's fanatics not burned it to the ground, my mentor Sandro would not have died the final death.
After Sandro was revealed as the Netherlord, this line seemed silly (or yeah, the Void city dedicated to Asha). Turns out Lorekeep was Blind Brothers' monastery.
Maybe Markal understood that Dragons' death would mean the death of mortals as well.
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@Sligneris To tell the truth, I don't think Markal really needed those artefacts to bring back Nicolai. At least not all of them. I think he lied to Isabel in the face and used her resources to gain those artefacts.
By "normal" i mean not Void-corrupted. As he did with Demons in HO for example.
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Scooby-dooby doo, where're you?..
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 02:17 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Maybe Markal admired Sandro's intellect and power, but didn't agree about killing Dragons?
(...)
Maybe Markal understood that Dragons' death would mean the death of mortals as well.
(...)
To tell the truth, I don't think Markal really needed those artefacts to bring back Nicolai. At least not all of them. I think he lied to Isabel in the face and used her resources to gain those artefacts.
Personally, I doubt it, on all accounts. Firstly, Markal didn't seem the type to care much for the Dragon Gods. I'd say it's way more likely that he didn't care either way - he sought power, with or without the Dragon Gods. After all, if he opposed Sandro's goals, he wouldn't have aided him in his plans or sought vengeance for his death.
While Markal lying to Isabel is not unlikely, ripping a soul that has passed on to the Spirit Realm is not easy either - so, as much as convenient it was for him to have such an excuse to reclaim them, great power was still necessary to reach the Spirit Realm.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 13, 2015 02:58 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Personally, I doubt it, on all accounts. Firstly, Markal didn't seem the type to care much for the Dragon Gods. I'd say it's way more likely that he didn't care either way - he sought power, with or without the Dragon Gods.
While Markal lying to Isabel is not unlikely, ripping a soul that has passed on to the Spirit Realm is not easy either - so, as much as convenient it was for him to have such an excuse to reclaim them, great power was still necessary to reach the Spirit Realm.
Caring about Dragons and understanding that without them you too will die are 2 different things ^_^
As Sar-Khayn tells in HO, the death of Dragons by the Void equals to the death of all those who have their blood. Similar to when MN was infected Vampires and Liches started dying.
What's the meaning in having power when you'll be non-existant?
I think I said "at least not all of them". Amulet of Necromancer, for example, wasn't a Void artefact at all (unlike Staff).
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted March 13, 2015 03:51 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
[Wait, what? 8th Dragon? When did this happen?
Clash of Heroes. Azh-Rafir tried to become 8th Dragon, but failed ^_^
Thanks for clarification. 
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 04:13 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Caring about Dragons and understanding that without them you too will die are 2 different things.
As Sar-Khayn tells in HO, the death of Dragons by the Void equals to the death of all those who have their blood. Similar to when MN was infected Vampires and Liches started dying.
What's the meaning in having power when you'll be non-existant?
This makes me somewhat conflicted. Sandro keeps talking about other world, but if he'll erase every aspect of Ashan, including all the souls in it, even his own, does that sound like it's worth it...?
Sandro400 said:
I think I said "at least not all of them". Amulet of Necromancy, for example, wasn't a Void artefact at all (unlike Staff).
It could be that just dragging his soul back to Ashan was not enough and he needed additional Necromantic artifacts to successfully perform Ritual of the Night.
Let me thing it through... Staff of the Netherworld channels Void's power, Ring of the Unrepentant has a strong connection to the Spirit World, Amulet of Necromancy amplifies necromantic abilities of its owner, while Cloak of Death's Shadow significantly affects souls and minds of mortals.
The Staff could be used to severe the ties binding Nicolai to the Spirit World and Elrath's domain. Ring of the Unrepentant could bring him through back to Ashan, Amulet of Necromancy would ensure that the his soul remains stable in his now vampiric body... while he could've used Cloak of Death's Shadow to bind him in sercive to him? If that's not it, then the cloak sound just like a nice bonus...
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 13, 2015 04:28 PM |
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Sligneris said:
This makes me somewhat conflicted. Sandro keeps talking about other world, but if he'll erase every aspect of Ashan, including all the souls in it, even his own, does that sound like it's worth it...?
Let me thing it through... Staff of the Netherworld channels Void's power, Ring of the Unrepentant has a strong connection to the Spirit World, Amulet of Necromancy amplifies necromantic abilities of its owner, while Cloak of Death's Shadow significantly affects souls and minds of mortals.
The Staff could be used to severe the ties binding Nicolai to the Spirit World and Elrath's domain. Ring of the Unrepentant could bring him through back to Ashan, Amulet of Necromancy would ensure that the his soul remains stable in his now vampiric body... while he could've used Cloak of Death's Shadow to bind him in sercive to him? If that's not it, then the cloak sound just like a nice bonus...
My personal theory is that Sandro doesn't know that Dragon's death would mean the end of everything or that the Void-corrupted would be spared from the death. When he says that he wants to destroy the world, I'm always under the impression that he means Dragon system, not the world itself. He wants to free everybody from Dragon's control. But that's only my opinion.
Or, being exposed to the Void for many centuries slowly degraded his mind and he throwed away the "free the people" part and became stuck with the actual destruction of Ashan.
You know, the Staff itself is enough. After severing his ties (if there're any) dragging his soul back to Ashan is no problem for Necromancers like Markal. It would be similar to summoning.
The Ring, I think, was needed as a failsafe. When Markal was defeated, he moved his soul to the Unrepentant's dimension, not the Spirit World.
Why would Nicolai's soul be unstable in his body at the first place? For me, the difficult part was bringing his soul back, after that, everything's easy.
That said, maybe the Cloak ensured the Eternal Night that ressurected Nicolai every time he was killed...
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 04:54 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
You know, the Staff itself is enough. After severing his ties (if there're any) dragging his soul back to Ashan is no problem for Necromancers like Markal. It would be similar to summoning.
The Ring, I think, was needed as a failsafe. When Markal was defeated, he moved his soul to the Unrepentant's dimension, not the Spirit World.
Why would Nicolai's soul be unstable in his body at the first place? For me, the difficult part was bringing his soul back, after that, everything's easy.
That said, maybe the Cloak ensured the Eternal Night that ressurected Nicolai every time he was killed...
The thing is that the Ring's dimension is apparently a section of the Spirit World, created by a Shantiri priest, if I understood Danse Macabre correctly. That being said, I like your theory about Cloak of Death's Shadow - it sounds like something this artifact could be capable of. About the Amulet, I meant that while Nicolai's body was preserved pretty well, possibly with Light Magic, his soul already spent quite a while without it. There could be possible complications.
Quite honestly, it's still surprising that whole Heroes V takes place during one year. I mean, it seemingly took Nicolai month or two to repel the demon invasion, at the cost of his life. Then, several months spent on Griffin Empire's conquest of Silver Cities, then another few months of the war in Irollan, as well as demons restarting their invasion at that time, forcing Findan and Markal to defend their territories and then, refugees from the Silver Cities, including Zehir, recapturing the Silver Cities and quickly marching to the Griffin Empire in order to root Necromancers out of it... All that in one year. 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 13, 2015 05:31 PM |
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Sligneris said:
The thing is that the Ring's dimension is apparently a section of the Spirit World, created by a Shantiri priest, if I understood Danse Macabre correctly. That being said, I like your theory about Cloak of Death's Shadow - it sounds like something this artifact could be capable of. About the Amulet, I meant that while Nicolai's body was preserved pretty well, possibly with Light Magic, his soul already spent quite a while without it. There could be possible complications.
Quite honestly, it's still surprising that whole Heroes V takes place during one year. I mean, it seemingly took Nicolai month or two to repel the demon invasion, at the cost of his life. Then, several months spent on Griffin Empire's conquest of Silver Cities, then another few months of the war in Irollan, as well as demons restarting their invasion at that time, forcing Findan and Markal to defend their territories and then, refugees from the Silver Cities, including Zehir, recapturing the Silver Cities and quickly marching to the Griffin Empire in order to root Necromancers out of it... All that in one year.
Yes it is, but it's kinda like "a country within a country", separated from the rest of the Spirit World.
Arantir has revived long dead Stonehelm kings with seemingly no problems...
It was 1,5 years iirc. But yeah, that was some action-packed war ^_^
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Heligrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 13, 2015 06:16 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
My personal theory is that Sandro doesn't know that Dragon's death would mean the end of everything or that the Void-corrupted would be spared from the death. When he says that he wants to destroy the world, I'm always under the impression that he means Dragon system, not the world itself. He wants to free everybody from Dragon's control. But that's only my opinion.
Or, being exposed to the Void for many centuries slowly degraded his mind and he throwed away the "free the people" part and became stuck with the actual destruction of Ashan.
I find Sandro's behaviour during HO events quite strange too. Especially his talks about salvation in nothingless and "eternal silence of true enlightment".
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