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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 31, 2016 04:17 PM |
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Gidoza is right, but i think i just found a fix, there is no reason why frenzy cannot be a lvl 5 spell, since there is already a minimum of 2 lvl 4 spells (blind+curse). If both are lvl 5 they are harder to obtain both + mana cost of frenzy can be increased further.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 31, 2016 04:50 PM |
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Well, dwarves are a cheap race by default. They have a hard counter for light, dark AND destructive and even puppet/frenzy won't have much of an impact due to their average damage and high defense values. It's also annoying that battlerage won't work on puppeted units.
Unless you have found a fix for that?
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 05:31 PM |
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magnomagus said:
druids + imbue ballista is tremendously overpowered
Let's say a spell does 100 damage. With Empowered Spells that’s +50 % damage, plus artefact boosters, that’s another +50 %. At top of all that there’s a Caster’s luck element that boosts damage further by a factor of 66%, so, exit value for this case is 100 + 50 + 50 + 132 = 332.
If a Druid has imbue ballista (instead of triple ballista), then that druid cannot have Caster’s luck and empowered spells (if it is even possible to create such a choice switches). But still, there are artefact elements which in this case give 150 * 2 x ballista = 300.
Imbued ballista shoots two times and every time charges the price of the spell.
If Druid or Warden have a Ring of Machine Affinity, total damage is 150 * 3 = 450
Even though the max possible damage is greater, the price is three times bigger, and the affected hero cannot have Erratic Mana and Empowered spells.
Ranger is interesting. Triple ballista (plus possible Ring of Machine Affinity) + imbue ballista + Erratic Mana. The only spell I can think of is Divine Vengeance. I don’t think that Caster’s luck affects Divine Vengeance.
And let’s not forget the initiative reset effect of imbue ballista. So, why not remove the imbue ballista perk altogether and replace it with something else?
For instance, instead of imbue ballista, Rangers could have special booster for Encourage, that would lower the cost for Encourage spell. Cost in a meaning that casting Encourage would not cost entire turn, but, just, let’s say half of the turn, or, a third of the turn. Something like a reverse Empathy.
Since Wardens don’t have any skill “special” skill, they could be starting with Leadership, and with a Encourage as a first perk, so they can have Encourage together with Empathy.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 31, 2016 07:53 PM |
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I would like to add to my previous post that this is not something I'm about to implement right away since if Deflaktor finds the offset for reducing frenzy to one turn, it puts things in different perspective.
@Skeggy: some of your proposals will run into a lot of hardcoded issues
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 08:14 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Gidoza is right, but i think i just found a fix, there is no reason why frenzy cannot be a lvl 5 spell, since there is already a minimum of 2 lvl 4 spells (blind+curse). If both are lvl 5 they are harder to obtain both + mana cost of frenzy can be increased further.
Wait - are you saying that there's a limit to how much the mana cost of a spell can be based on what level it is?
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 08:18 PM |
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Skeggy said:
magnomagus said:
druids + imbue ballista is tremendously overpowered
Let's say a spell does 100 damage. With Empowered Spells that’s +50 % damage, plus artefact boosters, that’s another +50 %. At top of all that there’s a Caster’s luck element that boosts damage further by a factor of 66%, so, exit value for this case is 100 + 50 + 50 + 132 = 332.
If a Druid has imbue ballista (instead of triple ballista), then that druid cannot have Caster’s luck and empowered spells (if it is even possible to create such a choice switches). But still, there are artefact elements which in this case give 150 * 2 x ballista = 300.
Imbued ballista shoots two times and every time charges the price of the spell.
If Druid or Warden have a Ring of Machine Affinity, total damage is 150 * 3 = 450
Even though the max possible damage is greater, the price is three times bigger, and the affected hero cannot have Erratic Mana and Empowered spells.
Ranger is interesting. Triple ballista (plus possible Ring of Machine Affinity) + imbue ballista + Erratic Mana. The only spell I can think of is Divine Vengeance. I don’t think that Caster’s luck affects Divine Vengeance.
And let’s not forget the initiative reset effect of imbue ballista. So, why not remove the imbue ballista perk altogether and replace it with something else?
For instance, instead of imbue ballista, Rangers could have special booster for Encourage, that would lower the cost for Encourage spell. Cost in a meaning that casting Encourage would not cost entire turn, but, just, let’s say half of the turn, or, a third of the turn. Something like a reverse Empathy.
Since Wardens don’t have any skill “special” skill, they could be starting with Leadership, and with a Encourage as a first perk, so they can have Encourage together with Empathy.
Is the Hero Initiative Reset on Imbue Ballista hardcoded? Because this in itself kind of defeats the purpose of even having Imbue Ballista half of the time. Anyways, Imbue Ballista seems decent on a Ranger because he can't master Dark/Destruction, and without the Initiative Reset, it would be balanced in that situation. With that in mind, perhaps for Warden/Druid, the same principle could be applied by making the Ballista only use spells at a maximum of Basic level and not exceeding level 3. Probably not possible, but it's a thought.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 31, 2016 08:19 PM |
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hakuryou
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2016 08:37 PM |
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I believe that after all those changes to magic the tomes became too overpowered so maybe removing them would be an option (or completely changing their effects, like increasing knowledge and spellpower of a certain school or increasing the mastery level of spells used by the hero, although the second option would become useless on late-game mages). In its current state I think tomes are more of a might class artifacts than magic (what I mean is that might focused heroes get more benefits from them)
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 31, 2016 08:42 PM |
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 09:29 PM |
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dredknight said:
Not sure if anyone has noticed but I have a certain believe that Fortress are still a bit too powerful. I will upload some replays later.
For example - Flamekeeper with runes + dark is almost unstoppable because 2 of your units are frenzied/Puppeted while his creatures revive and use no retaliation runes and run through the whole battlefield.
Moreover with just 5 units one is unable to deliver good damage to make a good hit against the heavily defended fortress.
One thing I always disliked about dwarves is Rune of Charge. If you are going to have a faction of slow, tough walkers, then they shouldn't be able to overcome that limitation with a tier 1 spell.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 31, 2016 10:22 PM |
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azalen said:
One thing I always disliked about dwarves is Rune of Charge. If you are going to have a faction of slow, tough walkers, then they shouldn't be able to overcome that limitation with a tier 1 spell.
Currently Runelore is much more powerful than any of the other skills.
One may say that it utilizes resources to work but other factions just do not have that ability to do it (besides academy which actually get much less bonuses compared to Runelore /except initiative/). Also actually the benefit you get from each rune for the price is enourmous.
For the price of 1 wood the unit can travel twice his speed.
Rune of resurection - 1 ore, 1 gem - fully resurrects 30% (it was 40 in tote but I think magno reduced it a bit) of the stack...
The problem is even you raise the price 20 fold one will still spend the awesome amounts of resources just to win the PvP battle (cause he does not need the resources after that).
I need to think about this... removing the runes is totally not an option but having them is totally not that good.
With the current pace of the battle no other faction with the same strength can beat Fortress at the moment.
They are just too tough to withstand Inferno/stronghold initial zergling and their damage is too high (with the help of runes - i.e. rune of dragonform is completely nuts) the tier 2 shooter damage is always very good. Somehow Skirimishers are always in great numbers.
The T5 upgrade on the other hand is not only one of the toughest archers (30% more hp than the lich but 30% less defense from defense points) in the game but also has very high damage.
Basically it can be compared to lich as deathcloud and cross attack are similar.
The difference between the the factions is that in Necropolis Liches and vampires are the leader tiers in the faction while in Fortress the dragon is the unit with the highest hp and stats in the game (30/40 and 35/40) packed with more than great abilties.
Thanes are also much more versatile than the Wraith.
They can fly, have ranged attack and even a bit more init.
I dont think it is bad for the race to be tough. This is what they are . Just after every game I play i dont see how basides what they have they can get the bonuses of other factions (speed, no retaliation, hydra strike etc) merely for 3 skill slots and just a couple of resources.
Disregarding anything above the pure stats says that my hardest games were always against Fortress.
The only games I have lost are against fortress and 1 against Sylvan where I played fortress but there I just lost in the PvE way before I met the opponent.
P.S.
@Magno, is it possible to make the Tomes of magic give all spells on basic level? Not sure it is going to fix anything but just in case we can have it as an option.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 10:28 PM |
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magnomagus said:
@Skeggy: some of your proposals will run into a lot of hardcoded issues
If possibility of Encourage boosting as a perk is problematic, perhaps Imbue Ballista can be replaced with perk that gives Word of the Chief ability, possibly without Hero dealing his standard damage.
I suppose that Wardens being able to have both standard Encourage together with Empathy isn’t hardcode issue? I mean, I like that proposal because Warden class lacks in personalized symbolic skill,
Paladins can use Knight for training purposes, what can Wardens do? Are they supposed to be so vanilla?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 31, 2016 10:50 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:54, 31 May 2016.
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dredknight said:
With the current pace of the battle no other faction with the same strength can beat Fortress at the moment.
Pretty sure it's a matter of how late in the game we are talking. Beyond week 5 they get more and more powerful but I doubt they are unbeatable prior to that.
Gidoza said:
Is the Hero Initiative Reset on Imbue Ballista hardcoded? Because this in itself kind of defeats the purpose of even having Imbue Ballista half of the time.
Meh. That works with 3.1 where rangers can achieve epic destructive power AND can get to act before ballista with empathy but it sounds like this build is dead.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 10:52 PM |
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Regarding Imbued Ballista on Druid.
How about increasing the necessary requirements on Imbue Ballista - for Druid only.
Meaning, Ranger has easy access, while also less powerful spells. For Druid, it is similar to an Ultimatum skillwise, but they have powerful spells at their disposal to use with it.
Since Imbue Ballista is powerful, but not necessarily IMBA in lategame, I don't think that it would limit Druid builds either, since Imbue wouldn't be a must have. Likewise, having a high requirement makes it harder to get early, thus making it only relevant in the lategame.
Also, the requirements could be set in a way to disallow powerful combos...
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted May 31, 2016 11:10 PM |
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@dredknight
I agree with some of your points. To me, dwarves are balanced by weak creeping in the early game (especially if you dont hit rune of charge in your rune guild). Their end game is top notch, but I don't thnk it is overwhelmingly better than Academy or Sylvan's initiative based domination at end game.
The problem, to me, is that Rune of Charge takes away the early creeping struggles of dwarves, which is their primary balance mechanism. If it cost a resource more important to dwarves than just wood, or got moved up a tier, I'd be happy with that. Maybe making it cost ore instead of wood would be good enough.
Necro isn't a great comparison, because their design is to have awesome creeping, but a weak end game. If you are playing Necro, the goal is to overwhelm your opponent with artifact superiority brought about by the early breaking of nuetrals. Dungeon is kinda similar with their crazy Stalkers-only creep.
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 12:03 AM |
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The current description for Gate Master is unclear as to whether it increases the incoming gated stack by 5% of the number of troops that would be gated, or the number of troops doing the gating. It might be good to clarify in the description, e.g. 'an extra 5% of the original stack.'
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 02:11 AM |
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dredknight said:
azalen said:
One thing I always disliked about dwarves is Rune of Charge. If you are going to have a faction of slow, tough walkers, then they shouldn't be able to overcome that limitation with a tier 1 spell.
Currently Runelore is much more powerful than any of the other skills.
One may say that it utilizes resources to work but other factions just do not have that ability to do it (besides academy which actually get much less bonuses compared to Runelore /except initiative/). Also actually the benefit you get from each rune for the price is enourmous.
Perhaps Runelore should be skill without any perks, so that runes can be used only once per combat and doesn’t have any other effects, also, can the runes be reworked in the meaning that if they boost one thing, they lower another?
For instance,
1. Rune of Charge - Creature speed increases by 100% until the end of the turn.
Suggestion: This effect reduces defense of that creature by 100% per turn. Also, if the speed is increased by 50%, then reducing defense should be 50%. It makes sense, you run 50% faster if you lose 50% armor.
2. Rune of Berserking - Creature will perform two Melee Attacks instead of one against the same target. At least one friendly creature from this friendly stack must be killed before this rune can be placed on it. The effect is active until the stack's next melee attack. If the enemy stack is killed with the first blow, then the rune effect stays active.
Suggestion: Reduces attack by 50%, since it’s split in two, and defense by 25%.
3. Rune of Magic Control
Creature will have a chance to steal random positive effect imposed on the enemy target in attack once. On its next melee or ranged attack, the stack will steal a random Light Magic blessing from its target (even Magical Immunity). If no such effect can be stolen, the rune is wasted.
Suggestion: No change.
4. Rune of Exorcism
Dispels all the negative effects imposed on the creature (only those that can be dispelled basically).
Level 1-3 Dark Magic curses will be dispelled, as well as certain other negative effects (like the Master of Fire "Burn" effect). "Poison" will not be dispelled.
Suggestion: After using this rune, unit will become vulnerable to attack and defense damaging spells.
5. Rune of Elemental Immunity
Creature gets immunity to two random magical elements until the end of combat.
Each time the rune is used on a stack, two new elements are randomly selected.
Suggestion: After using this rune unit become more vulnerable to other two magic elements. Immunities range is 60% - 90%, vulnerability range is 10% - 40%, depends on the level of the hero.
6. Rune of Etherealness
Creature gets incorporeality for one turn.
Suggestion: Affected unit either have lower damage for 30%, or it does full damage, but has 30% chance of missing the target.
7. Rune of Thunderclap
Selected creature will have a chance to inflict the Thunderclap effect to the enemy in attack once (the target will lose its Initiative).
The rune is active until the Thunderclap effect triggers. The triggering chance is the same as for some
creature abilities. It can trigger on attacks and retaliation strikes, and is improved by Soldier's Luck.
Suggestion: No change.
8. Rune of Resurrection
Resurrects 40% of killed creatures in the stack.
Suggestion: Perhaps something like other unit takes 20% damage from damage that destroyed that 40%.
9. Rune of Battle Rage
Creature will have a chance to perform a Melee Attack against all nearby enemies once (no retaliation).
On its next melee attack, the creature will be able to attack all the adjacent enemy stacks, without retaliation (equivalent to the Deep Hydra's six-headed attack ability). If the creature also has an active Rune of Berserking, then both effect will trigger, and it will strike all adjacent enemies twice.
Suggestion: Since this is something like a God-mode rune, there should be some repercussions, like affected unit is unable to move next 2 rounds.
Rune of Dragonform
Creature gets +100% to its Defense, +100% to its attack and +50% to magic-proof for one turn (doesn't work for Dragons).
The raw Attack and Defense values of the stack are doubled (not the bonus coming from the hero, spells or other effects).
Suggestion: Another God-mode rune. Perhaps this rune should be available only if Dragons are in the Hero’s party. And, if the rune is triggered, defense and attack of the Dragons in party is decreased accordingly. So, there isn’t 100% bonus but, accordingly scaled bonus.
All this is just hypothetical proposal, but, if doable, I don’t know, it could be nice to have look and feel of non God-mod runes.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 03:09 AM |
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Edited by Gidoza at 03:14, 01 Jun 2016.
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dredknight said:
azalen said:
One thing I always disliked about dwarves is Rune of Charge. If you are going to have a faction of slow, tough walkers, then they shouldn't be able to overcome that limitation with a tier 1 spell.
Currently Runelore is much more powerful than any of the other skills.
One may say that it utilizes resources to work but other factions just do not have that ability to do it (besides academy which actually get much less bonuses compared to Runelore /except initiative/). Also actually the benefit you get from each rune for the price is enourmous.
For the price of 1 wood the unit can travel twice his speed.
Rune of resurection - 1 ore, 1 gem - fully resurrects 30% (it was 40 in tote but I think magno reduced it a bit) of the stack...
The problem is even you raise the price 20 fold one will still spend the awesome amounts of resources just to win the PvP battle (cause he does not need the resources after that).
I need to think about this... removing the runes is totally not an option but having them is totally not that good.
With the current pace of the battle no other faction with the same strength can beat Fortress at the moment.
They are just too tough to withstand Inferno/stronghold initial zergling and their damage is too high (with the help of runes - i.e. rune of dragonform is completely nuts) the tier 2 shooter damage is always very good. Somehow Skirimishers are always in great numbers.
The T5 upgrade on the other hand is not only one of the toughest archers (30% more hp than the lich but 30% less defense from defense points) in the game but also has very high damage.
Basically it can be compared to lich as deathcloud and cross attack are similar.
The difference between the the factions is that in Necropolis Liches and vampires are the leader tiers in the faction while in Fortress the dragon is the unit with the highest hp and stats in the game (30/40 and 35/40) packed with more than great abilties.
Thanes are also much more versatile than the Wraith.
They can fly, have ranged attack and even a bit more init.
I dont think it is bad for the race to be tough. This is what they are . Just after every game I play i dont see how basides what they have they can get the bonuses of other factions (speed, no retaliation, hydra strike etc) merely for 3 skill slots and just a couple of resources.
Disregarding anything above the pure stats says that my hardest games were always against Fortress.
The only games I have lost are against fortress and 1 against Sylvan where I played fortress but there I just lost in the PvE way before I met the opponent.
P.S.
@Magno, is it possible to make the Tomes of magic give all spells on basic level? Not sure it is going to fix anything but just in case we can have it as an option.
What if using Runes ate a *percentage* of your resources instead of a specific amount? Not a solution, I know, but it actually creates a meaningful cost by scaling the resource use with the amount of each resource you are actually producing.
Quote:
Regarding Imbued Ballista on Druid.
How about increasing the necessary requirements on Imbue Ballista - for Druid only.
Meaning, Ranger has easy access, while also less powerful spells. For Druid, it is similar to an Ultimatum skillwise, but they have powerful spells at their disposal to use with it.
Since Imbue Ballista is powerful, but not necessarily IMBA in lategame, I don't think that it would limit Druid builds either, since Imbue wouldn't be a must have. Likewise, having a high requirement makes it harder to get early, thus making it only relevant in the lategame.
Also, the requirements could be set in a way to disallow powerful combos...
Perhaps I'm blind, but I don't even see Avenger on the Druid's list of skills? So it can't even get Imbue Ballista right now, anyways. Unless I misunderstood this discussion, and the suggestion is to give Avenger to Druid.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 08:23 AM |
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I just got hit by another idea. Probably a harcoded thing but still.
What if the exhaust modifier for runes is global?
Once you use rune of speed for one creature it is over for the battle. For example if you use rune of speed on bersekers it is exausted for the whole army as well.
Basically the Runelore perks will still be viable (probably Tap runes will need a boost), one will be able to refresh them and the combatant will be more picky when and for which unit he uses the precious runes.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 09:03 AM |
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@dredknight: not possible like that but greater rune perk can be removed/replaced, can you give some stats on how many times runes are spammed twice on creatures during pvp battles and also which runes are spammed twice. in other words list the 3-4 strongest runes backed up by your pvp replays.
Fortress creature power ratings are not the problem tier5 are not liches they have -10A -10D compared to them.
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