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| Thread: Save Heal! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 24, 2015 09:56 PM |
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Quote:
feels stupid since heroes (might and magic too?) is one of very few franchises where light/healing magic does not hurt undead.
...until now
it's kinda stupid and feels unoriginal.
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Vampires aside, it makes no sense for the light to hurt the undead. I mean they don't care about their skin, they can't get sun-burns 
Also, here's Saint Denis of Paris, got beheaded but that didn't stop him from preaching  He looks more undead worthy than the last 2 spiderpolises
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 24, 2015 10:04 PM |
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Afaik light hurts dark users like dark elves or those with a demonic heritage like orcs. Light hurting undead is probably tied to their darkness orientation(ghosts and liches do dark damage for instance) but I'm guessing this is a D&D leftover..
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted May 24, 2015 10:05 PM |
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I think that limiting the amount how much it can resurrect would be the best solution. 1 troop per stack, isn't game-breaking, even on champions. Temporary resurrection doesn't solve problems that cheap resurrection can cause in battle.
Anti-Undead stuff has been present in HoMM from H1 and there existed only one undead enemy, although yeah.. it was also the one of the most dangerous creatures in the game. So i see nothing wrong in having spells that target specific creature types. Perhaps addition of some what would target constructs or (later) demons would not be a bad idea.
Heal spells harming the undead comes from D&D 3.x editions and has become somewhat a semi-common trope, a good number of other games use it too. Giving it a chance to harm undead gives an additional use to the spell and helps to differ it from the regeneration spell. Still i would prefer the anti undead effect go to sunbeam.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2015 10:08 PM |
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I don't think heal needs saving really. I don't see why the spell was even put to the game(aside it being another easy copy/paste from h6(all they edited was resurrection effect off). Resurrection is plenty as only "heal"-spell. Heal is another completely useless spell since it only heals top unit and I just don't see it being that useful as dmg-spell against undead(you get better spells so would you really wanna use heal..?). You might use it on your small elite stack very very very very very early on, but in general it sounds completely useless. For damage there should be spell like word of light that is actually meant for dmg against specific enemies IMO.
For me the h6 spells and system itself felt like the most boring and lacking in the series. I have no idea why anybody would cut corners by copying stuff(almost all of spells I believe) from there if they truly intent on making best game in the series. Anyhow, I doubt devs are willing to put any real effort to the spell-system so any real changes are highly unlikely. At most they will just do tweaking to the dmg and duration values, I just don't see devs open for changes in general
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 24, 2015 11:54 PM |
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How about adding a component that removes loss of Morale (through any effect) for a turn or two? That includes Morale loss due to a special triggering (Haven has a few of those). Or perhaps maximize Morale for a turn.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 25, 2015 12:14 AM |
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Maurice said:
How about adding a component that removes loss of Morale (through any effect) for a turn or two? That includes Morale loss due to a special triggering (Haven has a few of those). Or perhaps maximize Morale for a turn.
Overlaps with Elrath's Conviction.
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mammothhunter
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 25, 2015 03:20 PM |
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I'd say save light magic. Yeah, it is an almost complete H6 copy like fire magic, but fire magic is at least useful. H6 light magic is horrible crap.
Currently, only resurrection there looks attractive. Sunburst is for inquisitors and likely not the strongest AOE damage being an expert level spell, it wasn't in H6 either. Dispel is very situational like its dark magic antipode, and single target. Retribution is one masochistic spell I don't know how to use. If it was like pain mirror - to return damage to baddie afterwards, but no, it requires prebuffing your own stack. Celestial armor is like H5 arcane armor but awfully implemented that got dispelled instantly.
Hope Ubilimbic will at least rebalance celestial armor, since there will be no other buffs for a knight to cast in the whole light magic school, lol.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted May 25, 2015 11:48 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 23:49, 25 May 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
feels stupid since heroes (might and magic too?) is one of very few franchises where light/healing magic does not hurt undead.
...until now
it's kinda stupid and feels unoriginal.
What gives!? We all know Skeletons wear goggles. They need to protect their eyes no?
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2015 02:10 AM |
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Personally I would combine heal and celestial armor and give it a new name (like fortify). The hole could then be replaced with the bless spell including an added area in the ability.
Then again those spell where meant to be low level once you get higher tier you should rely less on the lower one.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 26, 2015 09:33 AM |
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What disappoints me is that celestial shield was the perfect alternative to the H6 resurrection heal. Preventing damage is much more balanced than undoing it and useful enough that a heal spell should never have been necessary to introduce.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 26, 2015 12:48 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:56, 26 May 2015.
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Locksley saves your B(e)acon when it looks Dark and Burnt!
Hi fellows! After a year of inactivity (in this forum, not at work and class) the time is ripe for me to hang around here again. I have kept myself somewhat updated about H7 and some of the major discussions that have taken place in the community, but to keep posting would take too much time and energy. To play Vein’s campaign took me 5 months because of this. But without law studies in the evenings I’m able to occasionally post here in this the nicest corner of the Internet again.
My suggestion for saving Heal is to give it a refreshing effect, so that the stack will be the next to act. With a careful choice of words in the description we can avoid to make it overpowered, for example:
Restores one creature’s health completely and refreshes the stack from any weariness remaining from being targeted in the previous turn, temporarily raising its initiative in the current turn.
I think the refreshing is neat as it fits the theme of the spell. Maybe one could call it an area of effect within the stack, one creature is healed and the others feel an effect as well. The limitation “previous turn” makes sure that a high initiative champion isn’t allowed to attack twice in a turn. A “logical” explanation would be that the area of effect within the stack is too weak to refresh a stack that has been targeted recently (i.e. in the current turn).
The usefulness of the spell would vary nicely during the game:
- Early: The health recovery is minimal, but the stack can choose to retreat into safety, take a retaliation to save someone else, or to charge ahead and reach those enemy shooters one turn faster!
- Mid time: By now Heal also allows you to save some elite and champion creatures when creeping. The main priority would be to try to make a slow and tanky elite take retaliations, so that bigger stacks of core creature with low health points can hit hard without being hurt. But be careful, soon the neutrals may strike down one of your tanky elite creatures.
- Late: When you have more than a few champions Heal is rather pointless and in a big battle where creatures die like flies, I recommend Resurrection. Hopefully you have many other spells, skills, artifacts and abilities that are more interesting than Heal anyway. But the refreshing effect could still be useful in some situations.
The problems I see are that refreshing could make Heal to good for a level one spell in the late game. Maybe the the “previous turn limit” of 1 turn is too harsh, but making it longer/unlimited would probably be too much. And I'm not sure if it's too easy to make boring tricks, or if the “being hit” prerequisite is enough as it makes 1-creature-stacks-take-the-retaliation-tactics impossible.
What do you think, could it work?
I also like the damaging effect in H6 where demons, orcs, dark elves, and undead can’t face the truth and purity of Light. In H7 there are no demons (yet?) but half the factions are related to darkness or chaos. So it could work as it is suggested by the developers too.
Area of Effect could be fine for the Healing aspect, but would be overpowered when using Heal for damaging the enemy.
Of the suggestions you’ve made I like these the most:Quote:
- affect future heals from sisters in some way
- adding a component that removes loss of Morale (through any effect) for a turn or two? That includes Morale loss due to a special triggering (Haven has a few of those). Or perhaps maximize Morale for a turn.
- combine heal and celestial armor and give it a new name (like fortify).
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 27, 2015 06:31 PM |
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Combining previous suggestions, it should be possible to make heal, regeneration, and resurrection distinct and useful for early game as well as final battle. That would actually be an improvement over previous versions.
According to the different characteristics of light and earth magic:
- heal has an instant effect - healing and, possibly, adding initiative for this turn. Effect depends on power.
- regeneration has a delayed and lasting effect - regenerating after each turn and, possibly, removing some bad effect after each turn, for some time. Duration depends on power.
- resurrection is again instant. Fraction of permanent resurrection (not just 0 and 1) may vary as well as resurrected number.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted May 28, 2015 06:56 PM |
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Elvin said:
Some constructive comments please. Don't want to start deleting already.
If I were to add a side benefit to Heal, I think it'd be to dispel 1 negative effect. Or to remove all poisons, etc.
Another interesting alternative is to add a 1-turn magic immunity to the creature (with Heal). Imagine mending a creature and sending it back out into battle.
Or perhaps Heal also raises the attack of the creature for 1 turn. We could change the name from Heal to Invigorate.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 28, 2015 07:05 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
feels stupid since heroes (might and magic too?) is one of very few franchises where light/healing magic does not hurt undead.
...until now
it's kinda stupid and feels unoriginal.
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Vampires aside, it makes no sense for the light to hurt the undead. I mean they don't care about their skin, they can't get sun-burns
Unless Ubi meant light magic to be more like holy damage? Though it makes less sense, since mages and elves can cast light magic as well...
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