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| Thread: Heroes 7 - Yea or Nay? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 02:53 PM |
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cleglaw said:
random map generator as an extra content for extra price.
Lol is this true?
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 02:59 PM |
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I voted Mediocre.
The game just has ton of flaws and downsides IMO that prevent it from being a good game. I do believe it has potential to get good or great via modding, but by devs no chance.
The biggest problems I have are:
-Lousy skill-system(it essentially retained almost all h6 problems even after they edited it to wheel-form) with no replay-value. You will always go for GMs, You will know 2/3 skill/abilities the moment you choose class and rest you take what makes the best out of them. Abilities are almost all tailored for specific need so there is no real choice in what you will take. Lack of racial abilities around the wheel makes it same for everybody, which is boring. Also each faction should have access to all schools(and skills in general) since the base of system is non-random anyhow.
-Boring hero specializations.
-Too few creature abilities which on top of that get tossed around repeatedly making them feel somewhat generic(while in past games they were rare and even unique). Some classic creature-abilities gone like no retaliation for vamp is also small downer for me.
-Lack of chance-based abilities.
-Not enough variety between faction line-ups. So far most factions go with 2 melee + shooter in core and elite(necro and stronghold being exceptions). I would've preferred factions having different focus, but I guess easy balancing comes first...
-Spell-schools are too similar to one another, each roughly offering little bit of everything(I've detailed that on the forums before).
-Bad art. Too much over the top designs for units and heroes for my taste. The world is much more simple as contrast(which looks ways better). Also the sad Town-screens which I find below par even for mobile or internet games in this day and age.
-Area of Control. I like the concept, but it's actually done worse than in h6 because now you have to convert the fort which you didn't have to do in h6. And by convert I mean re-build of course, I just don't like beating around the bush since it's the same thing, now you simply have to destroy the fort first(for which you have no choice).
-Magic guilds have option to choose element which is just another random element gone for me. Before each faction had an element which was sure as it was racial identifier of sorts. Now you get sure thing every game, except if it's "forbidden" magic school which you can't learn anyhow. Also only single lvl 4 spell per school is just sad since you know ever since start what you will get and there is the lack of excitement when capturing towns if you'll get the spell you were looking for.
-A lot of things rehashed and re-used from h6 making this game look and feel a lot like a stand-alone expansion for h6 rather than h7.
-Game continues on the path h6 left to simplify the game too much taking thinking element out and brings optimization element from h6 back stronger than ever.
- Over-use of governing. It didn't really need to be present as heavily as devs put it. Also it's too much all over the skill-tree. I like the idea of governor, but I just wish it was toned down to be on top of past systems (like walls giving x boost to growth) as somewhat equal instead of dominating it all.
-Lack of town conversion. I always missed this feature in past game before h6 as it was a great equalizer. It was just badly implemented in h6, but also natural part of evolution to the game IMO.
-Flanking system with its faults from Heroes Online. Was much more suited for HO since the game had limited stack-size.
-Battle-system from h6.
-Lack of innovations(just taking things from past games, only innovation being garrison troops and war-machine upgrades which remain to be seen if they are of any good).
-Pre-order exclusives have artifacts which have effect on game-play rather than just offering visual stuff(like hero avatars for example)
-In many things lack of logic. Be that building placement in TS, some abilities or hero specializations these are things devs should've put some serious thought into.
Good sides:
+ Graphics are better
+Tavern system is good bit like before h6 and has at least some unique start-troops(hopefully a lot).
+Music is ok.
+Random battles supposedly can be made of mixed different units instead of being all of same unit.
+Very simple game so it's easy for new players.
+ Supposedly AI turns will become fast(currently they are slower than h5 with mods...)
+ There will be map editor at some point which should be easy to use
+ Possibility to buy guards to garrisons
+ Possiblity to upgrade war-machines and hopefully make them viable in long games too.
Overall I'm easily on the negative side, but I do think with mods this game could eventually become good. The thing is, I wouldn't price the game as is for more than 25-30€
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 28, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:12, 28 May 2015.
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cleglaw said:
governor system is here for bringing deep content, and more detailed management so i dont see how it can be a personal taste subject
It also forces the player to employ (and develop!) Heroes that aren't intended to do combat. In Heroes4, the influence of a Governor was relatively small; here, they get a full range of skills and perks. This may increase micromanagement in ways that aren't fun. But we'll have to see how it works out.
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spell system is good, i wont even discuss this. spells in it,they have lots of side effects and different uses
I'm not sure what you mean here?
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and how you access to them, is in a state that they are not too hard or too easy. you get them from magic guilds, and you set a preferance when you build magic guild. 2 good additions, and that selection of spell schools is what makes it fixed and good you calculate in 7 magic schools. 7 schools was a pain in the ass before, but with current system is feels it finally set in stones: lots of hero classes+magic guilds+a choice when you build magic guild+adventure map spell teaching buildings. all together makes perfect combination.
I'm still in doubt; the point is that Magic skills are locked in the skill wheel and given the limited number of spells per Magic skill, selecting a specific Magic School is pretty much going to guarantee which spells you're going to get. The random element is reduced as opposed to say, Heroes3.
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we have flanking as a better working system compared to heroes online.
Never played Heroes Online, but I did play Age of Wonders 3 which also uses Flanking. Based on what I've heard about the Heroes7 system, compared with what I've experienced in AoW3, I have my doubts in this game.
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area of control, like was in h6, was only about controlling mines and teleporting from there to there, now it effects lots of other things and that broken over-teleport system is no more here, so i think area of control is now meaningfull, not broken, but usefull in many ways.
Perhaps, we'll have to see. Perhaps I am a bit pessimistic about it; my excuse is that I've experienced Heroes6  .
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they are really confident about talking it and they stated several times that they are heavyly focusing on it, so i expect at least a not-poor quality.
The demolishable bridges are nice and all, but unless the editor is easy to work with to set up such things - not to mention, scripting! - it's still going to be laborious to make maps. While I do hope that they will deliver something that's easy to use, my expectations are lower than that.
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thats not an assumption, in twitch session we seen how much it can be fast in options menu, and they said turn times will be even much lower.
I never saw the twitch stream, but did they also show the memory leak there? Such unexpected and unintended side effects may creep up in the background and I am not optimistic that they will have ironed out all of those issues come game launch. Since we also don't know the level of support the game is going to get post-launch, it may take a while for such issues to get fixed for good.
The fact that they had one creep up last-minute prior to the opening of the beta indicates that more such issues can yet linger in the shadows. For short games on small maps, such issues may be insignificant, but long(er) games on large(r) maps may suffer intolerably.
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i dont see that happening, when i watched twitch session. it looks like h3, and my favourite heroes game is h3, never liked h5 that much. its looks like solid random system to me, and also i have to say, i like non-random too. i dont like getting nevigation or eagle eye when i really dont want to, and i find it a bit annoying sometimes.
My favorite game is Heroes3 as well. Fact is that the skill system in Heroes7 is restricted: any given Hero only has access to a pool of 10 Skills at most, preselected based on the corresponding skillwheel of the class of that Hero. Then, within that pre-selection, a Hero can only ever hope to develop 5 skills at most as other skills are not being offered anymore once the 5th skill has been selected. Compare that to Heroes3, where all skills had a chance to pop up (or could be obtained from Scholars, Universities and Witch Huts) and a Hero could develop 8 skills.
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big plans for future h7 expansions, source is devs themselves, they said, if vanilla makes good enough, they want to make expensions, not only one but more, if i remember right. at least "2 expensions" means "big plans" to me.
Well, if they'd say upfront "we won't do expansions", I doubt the game will sell as well. They also put up a condition, "if it sells well enough", without quantifying it. So, post-launch UbiSoft can still cancel the series, no matter how many copies of the game had been sold at that point.
Like information in the past which turned out to be not nearly as grand as we all hoped, I have my doubts about the "great plans" as well. We'll have to see, let's first focus on the vanilla game and how that one irons out.
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they said random map generator will most likely not gonna make in with vanilla version, so i assume it will be a content to be added later, and knowing ig gaming companies, esspecially ubisoft, it will be very probably for an extra price. its an assumption, but a strong one.
I'd say that if they design it, it will come with the first expansion and be one of its selling points.
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no inferno is not looking normal to me, its one of the main factions, and its not in core game. weird.
Sylvan and Academy are core factions to me too, yet both of them were omitted from Heroes6. I don't see why Inferno can't be benched for this installment.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 28, 2015 03:57 PM |
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I went with "meh". My primary reasons are:
BAD THINGS
- Bad skill system (no interconnecting skills etc.)
- Bad magic system (too many spell schools, spell schools too alike)
- Horrible town screens
- H6-like battles (from what we've seen: Too little damage, too high HP)
- Unbalanced flanking system
- No proper town portal mechanism
- Boring hero specializations
- Boring and few creature abilities
- Creatures are too small and hence look bad on battle screen
GOOD THINGS
+ Adventure map looks good
+ War Machines have levels
+ Favored element in Mage Guild
+ Eh?
____________
What will happen now?
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 05:49 PM |
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For me right now it is : Ok/MEDIOCRE!
visually: Heroes VII > Heroes V > Heroes VI (so far)
gameplay: Heroes V > Heroes VII > Heroes VI (so far)
the three main things that are worrying me the most: ( I'm sorry Alci, I'm just gonna copy yours  )
- Bad skill system (no interconnecting skills etc.)
- H6-like battles (from what we've seen: Too little damage, too high HP)
- Bad magic system (too many spell schools, spell schools too alike)
I'm gonna comment one more time after playing beta
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 28, 2015 06:25 PM |
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Yeah, skills, spells and battles are three major points of the game that should be fixed. Otherwise, I don't see much success about it.
Though there are some things that aren't that important, but can't be overlooked either, say that "Necropolis" or specializations or townscreens.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 28, 2015 06:31 PM |
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TO me, the game looks/feels better than H6 did at this point. We will see whether feeling from the beta is same.
My expectations are higher than usual.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 06:41 PM |
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I have to say that I like the Heroes 6 battles and the increased health points. I want long battles with a lot of positional play. Also, don't forget that some abilities are overpowered and we have flanking, so it is better for the creatures to be stronger, otherwise the battles will be over after the first round...
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Minastir at 18:42, 28 May 2015.
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yasmiel said:
TO me, the game looks/feels better than H6 did at this point. We will see whether feeling from the beta is same.
I think nobody denies that for sure it's going to be better than HVI, the question is, is it going to be better than heroes V ? ;>
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 28, 2015 06:45 PM |
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Minastir said:
yasmiel said:
TO me, the game looks/feels better than H6 did at this point. We will see whether feeling from the beta is same.
I think nobody denies that for sure it's going to be better than HVI, the question is, is it going to be better than heroes V ? ;>
That's a very high demand (for Ubi). I'd rather lower the expectations nearly to H4 rather than H5.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 07:27 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Minastir said:
I think nobody denies that for sure it's going to be better than HVI, the question is, is it going to be better than heroes V ? ;>
That's a very high demand (for Ubi). I'd rather lower the expectations nearly to H4 rather than H5.
H4 > H5
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 08:44 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Minastir said:
yasmiel said:
TO me, the game looks/feels better than H6 did at this point. We will see whether feeling from the beta is same.
I think nobody denies that for sure it's going to be better than HVI, the question is, is it going to be better than heroes V ? ;>
That's a very high demand (for Ubi). I'd rather lower the expectations nearly to H4 rather than H5.
I know it is and I don't think it's going to be better than heroes V, for sure if we are talking about replayability, but I also think that we should have high expectations, with low expectations we could end up with a game like HVI  and we can't be satisfied with anything that is better than HVI, that's why I would rather compare HVII to HV than HVI
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 09:42 PM |
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Edited by icefield at 22:10, 28 May 2015.
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EnergyZ said:
Minastir said:
yasmiel said:
TO me, the game looks/feels better than H6 did at this point. We will see whether feeling from the beta is same.
I think nobody denies that for sure it's going to be better than HVI, the question is, is it going to be better than heroes V ? ;>
That's a very high demand (for Ubi). I'd rather lower the expectations nearly to H4 rather than H5.
No, it isn't a high demand. You have to compare with H5 as it was at release time. That's a fair comparison - in both cases, a team develops the whole game from scratch, all mechanics, rules, content, code, AI, story, map structure, etc. Yes, they can look at H5 ToE, but still they are developing a new game. H7 may reuse some graphics design from H6, but that's not affecting the gameplay. Time frames are likely similar, budget might be higher now, but a large fraction goes into graphics.
Now, does anybody remember Heroes 5 in the state in which it was released?
- H5: a bugfest when finally released after beta phase, largely unplayable. First patches introduced new bugs at random. Fixed: late.
- H7: don't know yet, but at least they seem to be concerned.
- H5: skill system interesting but intransparent and unbalanced, too many restrictions, few choices. Fixed: yes, in ToE and fan-made skill wheel.
- H7: more simplistic, balancing still required, but much more than H3. There are possibilities to expand.
- H5: ultimate skills require unique build, unreachable in practice and dependent on crappy prereq. Fixed: partly (memory mentor)
- H7: GM skills somewhat bland, but plannable.
- H5: few spells in four schools, mixed usability. Fixed: more spells in expansions, but also two additional schools (warcries and runes).
- H7: again few spells, many schools. Has to be proven in game.
- H5: faction specials require ridiculous amount of micromanagement, unless you're really experienced and know what to do. Some are useless, some OP (necro). Fixed: partly in ToE
- H7: will have to see, clearly more simplistic.
- H5: gameplay is very slow due to clumsy 3D UI. Fixed: no
- H7: definitely better.
- H5: 3D town screens are great pieces of art, but entirely non-functional. Wasted half of the budget for beautiful animated wallpapers.
- H7: comparable to H3 (maybe not as good in style), which is ok.
- H5: anime creature design controversial (to say the least). Not fixed, we got used to it.
- H7: design overloaded with detail (and spikes), but ok.
- H5: hack-and-slash battles, unplannable random factor, initiative imbalance. Fixed: no, matter of taste.
- H7: apparently on the slow side, might need some speedup.
- H5: map editor was difficult, unusable for many. Fixed: slightly, and various map makers mastered it, later.
- H7: we'll see - at least it's based on a proven engine.
- H5: story and cutscenes are just hilarious and embarassing. Fixed: better in ToE
- H7: the pre-history told so far is convincing, suitable for a strategy war game. Let's hope for more in-game.
I stop here. I think H5 ToE has become a good game with lots of content. But at release time, no. It took months and years until things either got fixed or players got used to the more odd parts.
Yes, H7 vanilla won't be awesome at first, but it does have a good chance to be better than H5 release version. The main factors are the overall pace of the game, the real depth of the skill system etc. in-game, and the usability of the editor.
Edited: fixed H6 -> should read H7
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted May 28, 2015 10:05 PM |
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@icefield
Are you comparing H5 and H6, or H5 and H7? I got a little confused.
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 10:07 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
@icefield
Are you comparing H5 and H6, or H5 and H7? I got a little confused.
Oops, H7 of course. Will edit.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted May 28, 2015 11:00 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 23:04, 28 May 2015.
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It will probably be OK. Probably...
So a solid turn based game which will give a lot of playing hours, but it won't be something epic like you-know-what entry in the series, and it's not about nostalgia blah blah, but sheer gameplay/replayability/longevity. And probably not as good as Age of Wonders III...
Problem is, as things stand right now, I won't even play it because of the system requirements (unless they'll optimize the game somehow).
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted May 28, 2015 11:25 PM |
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First of all, I think that it is entirely wrong to compare something that is to be released, with bad things from the past. I think that if we want improvement, we should compare with the best things from the series.
icefield said:
- H5: skill system interesting but intransparent and unbalanced, too many restrictions, few choices. Fixed: yes, in ToE and fan-made skill wheel.
- H7: more simplistic, balancing still required, but much more than H3. There are possibilities to expand.
H5 skill system was the best one, imo. Sure there were things that could have been changed, but overall, it was the best. As for H7, the things I saw are just meh: predefined skills for heroes, skills that ruin optional randomness. Not much replayability, imo.
icefield said:
- H5: few spells in four schools, mixed usability. Fixed: more spells in expansions, but also two additional schools (warcries and runes).
- H7: again few spells, many schools. Has to be proven in game.
Those two additional schools are somewhat special: they are racial. The rest, I agree that there were not to many spells, but 4 schools grouped by the spell function is better than 7 schools where spells look like copy paste.
icefield said:
- H5: faction specials require ridiculous amount of micromanagement, unless you're really experienced and know what to do. Some are useless, some OP (necro). Fixed: partly in ToE
- H7: will have to see, clearly more simplistic.
I liked H5 racial skills, but didn't like the fact that they are connected to town buildings mostly. Micromanagement is the fun part, imo, and I don't recall them being useless. As for H7, we shall see
icefield said:
- H5: 3D town screens are great pieces of art, but entirely non-functional. Wasted half of the budget for beautiful animated wallpapers.
- H7: comparable to H3 (maybe not as good in style), which is ok.
This is personal preference. I liked H5 town screens, I dislike H7 screens. As for functionality, it will be the same. You will have the buttons to do every action in town. You won't need to click on town hall or castle like in H3.
icefield said:
- H5: anime creature design controversial (to say the least). Not fixed, we got used to it.
- H7: design overloaded with detail (and spikes), but ok.
H5 didn't have perfect design, but I liked it more. H7 (and H6) artstyle is not something that I like, but it is just my taste. But, it seems that they continued the trend of borrowing unit designs.
icefield said:
- H5: hack-and-slash battles, unplannable random factor, initiative imbalance. Fixed: no, matter of taste.
- H7: apparently on the slow side, might need some speedup.
I liked H5 combat along with randomk factor. H7 battles seem too long, but that can be fixed.
icefield said:
- H5: map editor was difficult, unusable for many. Fixed: slightly, and various map makers mastered it, later.
- H7: we'll see - at least it's based on a proven engine.
H5 editor was ok, could be better, but you can do great things with it. As for H7, it remains to be seen. I remember promises of great map editor for H6, in the end, we got trash...
icefield said:
- H5: story and cutscenes are just hilarious and embarassing. Fixed: better in ToE
- H7: the pre-history told so far is convincing, suitable for a strategy war game. Let's hope for more in-game.
Agree.
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 29, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Edited by icefield at 00:06, 29 May 2015.
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frostymuaddib said:
First of all, I think that it is entirely wrong to compare something that is to be released, with bad things from the past. I think that if we want improvement, we should compare with the best things from the series.
No objection. I tried to recall that it took Nival two expansions and tons of angry-fan feedback to get there, however. Development time/budget/experience was way too short to immediately realize their vision. This time, it seems that devs want to be on the safe side. We may see a solid game, no more. If there is potential ...
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted May 29, 2015 01:34 PM |
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I mostly agree with Alci and TD.
sth between "mediocre" and "meh", I'd say.
@Kiryu
It's good that you specified from the begining that "crap business-practices" are to be ruled out in our vote. Otherwise, it would be an absolute NeyNeyNey for me...
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 29, 2015 02:08 PM |
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I'm surprised people are taking it seriously you weren't supposed to 
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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