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| Thread: Help me out with spells |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 28, 2015 12:51 PM |
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Help me out with spells
Hi guys
I would like to hear your opinion about 7 spells in the game:
*Dimension Door
*Fly
*Town Portal
*Water Walk (On a water-heavy map)
*Resurrection
*Animate Dead
*Armageddon
I'm in doubt about those spells, because in some way I think they are overpowered and in some way I think they should be allowed to make more possibilities.
What do you think about these spells, should they be allowed or not and why?
The above situation is meant to be both PvP and versus AI.
Against the AI I know they almost never pick magic schools so they can't use Town Portal, Dimension Door and Resurrection effectively. Fly is a bit overpowered as it allows you to skip guards, border guards and border gates in certain situations. Therefore I think these 4 spells should definitely be banned and with Resurrection banned Animate Dead should probably also be banned.
But what about Armageddon and Water Walk (On a Water-heavy map) should they be allowed or not allowed? Armageddon can be abused in certain situations and Water Walk is almost as good as Fly on a Water-map.
So what do you think? And what about Angel Wings, Boots of Levitation, Armageddon's Blade, Tomes and Spellbinder's Hat?
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 01:43 PM |
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I like these spells and i think there is no reason to change anything in them.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted May 28, 2015 02:01 PM |
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For me all spells except Dimension Door or Fly are accepted. Without Town Portal on maps XL, H, XH, G is difficult to conquer map and keep away AI from Castles. Armageddon is good, but it need either Dragons, or Pheonixes to be powerful. Water Walk can be handy.
Ressurection/Animate Dead - you want reduce losses as minimum as possible versus AI. Versus player can save your ass.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 28, 2015 02:45 PM |
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I don't know why you say that the AI never uses Magic skills, because I see AI heroes using Magic skills often enough. As such, I see them use Town Portal (between towns) and Dimension door, as well as Mass Haste or Slow.
phoenix4ever said:
*Dimension Door
At higher mastery levels, it becomes too powerful, because you can cover huge distances with it. Mana is the only limitation, really. Combined with Town Portal, it makes the Heroes' striking distance far, far larger than for Heroes without. Personally, I'd keep it at a single-cast per turn, but extend the radius with Mastery level. Allow scrolling the map when selecting the target, by the way; I hate it when it locks the viewable map portion during casting.
Quote:
*Fly
A poor man's Dimension Door; doesn't have nearly the reach as Dimension Door and you still need to be able to see the destination before you can fly across bodies of water for instance. This spell is ok, in my opinion.
Quote:
*Town Portal
Pretty much mandatory for larger maps. Without it, map control becomes an increasing hassle with larger map sizes (and increased number of towns). The power in its current form is that it consumes only very little movement points, potentially allowing you to visit just about all your towns in a single turn.
Suggested change: make it cost way more movement points, with a decrease in movement point cost with increasing mastery level. Make it limited range, with mastery increasing this range. Make it single cast per turn.
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*Water Walk (On a water-heavy map)
Even worse than fly; the Hero is still limited to all physical limitations (like rocks on the shore) and you still need to see the other shore before you can travel across. This one is fine as it is in my opinion.
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*Resurrection
Mandatory spell to preserve your troops. Troops only persist at Advanced and Expert levels. If anything, the game should allow the victor of a battle to resurrect fallen troops in a post-battle window when he has this spell in his spellbook and mana allows for it.
As a suggested fix which will also make Fire Magic more attractive, Fire Magic should get a Disintegrate spell. Units killed by Disintegrate cannot be resurrected.
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*Animate Dead
Too powerful in its current form. It's a lower level than Resurrection and even at untrained skill, it raises fallen Undead permanently. I would raise this one to be more on par with Resurrection.
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*Armageddon
Since you kill your own troops with it, unless they're Fire immune, this one is ok. To make effective use of it, you need units that are fast enough so you're able to cast it early enough in the battle, while also being immune to Fire. Efreeti and Phoenixes are likely candidates; Fire Elementals lack the speed for it. It doesn't really work when the enemy has units with Fire Immunity.
If anything should be changed, maybe its cost should be increased somewhat, and/or its damage reduced.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 02:57 PM |
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I agree that Fly, Dimension Door and Water Walk can be devious but if it is a custom map it is up to the map-maker to decide if he wants them to be allowed or not. In WoG I usually disable them.
Same for mentioned artifacts except Armaggedon's Blade. Armaggedon's Blade is automatically disabled in any map so if you found one is because the author of the map wanted it to be possible for some reason.
Without resurrection/animate dead fights against AI enemies 3 or 4 times stronger can became impossible turning the progress slower and probably more boring.
Armaggedon isn't a decisive spell after some time. Does it matter if you can make a 4k damage to all enemy units if most slots have 50000 HP or more? You would be better served with Bless, Bloodlust or Shield anyway and Haste/Slow probably even better. The decisive Fire spell is Berserk, that one maybe the only way to win some custom fights but could/should be banned in all other situations.
Artifacts like the Shakles of War, Recanter's Cloack and Orb of Inibition can also be overpowered in some situations, yet I don't think they should be banned, those variables add interest to the game even if can also kill it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 28, 2015 03:39 PM |
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I think this is wrong forum for such questions. Here usually we modify those spells to reduce or increase their effect, because we can. For basic game-play questions try Library of Enlightenment, there are still a few good player visiting it and they will address your false concerns. And btw, your list lacks the only spell in the game AI will never use, berserk -the cheater's spell.
As for others, you obviously have zero experience in well done custom maps, where nothing is missing and nothing is OP; if you want I can give you a list. After playing them, you will be fixed about all magic schools and all spells necessity + where they are required and when.
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 18:43, 28 May 2015.
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Control spells without restrictions would be overpowered in PvP on random maps. If you're interested than the dominating HW rules currently states that:
SoD:
You need a GM of according level to use 4-5 scrolls such as Fly, DD, TP.
SoD+HotA:
-Fly (as a spell), DD, TP are banned on S and M map sizes.
-DD is limited to a single use per hero per day on L map sizes.
-DD is limited to two uses per hero per day if the hero has expert Air Magic on XL maps.
Edit: I must have been sleepy because I made a couple of typos, but the above should be correct now and more clear now.
The HW rules HD mod add-on enforces these and other rules.
Circumventing border guards with control spells is mostly allowed. Even the MG on Mini-Nostalgia for example. Though on Jebus Cross it's not allowed at all. Further, in HotA there's of course the coded enforcement that prevents you from using DD/Fly to steal with. In SoD you're actually allowed to steal small stuff such as resources using Fly/DD.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 28, 2015 10:33 PM |
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Thank you for your answers.
I'm considering adding Animate Dead, Resurrection, Armageddon and Water Walk. But honestly I find Resurrection/Animate Dead pretty boring as you'll always try to minimize losses in battle and cast these spells way too much and make battles very "samey".
Dimension Door and Town Portal I think is too powerful, AI probably don't know how to use them and I don't wan't people skipping fights and borders in my map so Fly can't be allowed either.
You are probably right about Berserk, it is very powerful, but it requires Expert Fire Magic and without Berserk Fire School would be pretty useless. Besides lots of creatures are immune to mindspells or fire spells and there are several artifacts which prevents Berserk.
Another problem with adding those spells in starting towns is poor Stronghold and Fortress, they can never learn these spells at their castles. Yes I know they can just conquer other castles, but that gets a lot tougher if the enemy has Town Portal, Dimension Door, Fly and/or Water Walk.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2015 11:19 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Dimension Door and Town Portal I think is too powerful, AI probably don't know how to use them and I don't wan't people skipping fights and borders in my map so Fly can't be allowed either.
You can do whatever you want in your own maps, Woodmelon even prevented blind from appear and Archangels from flying in TDS but you can't say AI probably doesn't know how to use DD and Town Portal cause we can see those spells being used quite often.
Test it, start a game in a Tower with the grail, put the spells on the map and observe what happens. AI makes heavy use of travelling spells even if not very intelligently: can fly or DD to a place from where it can't came out while spending everysingle spellpoint to do it and then having wait for 15 days to be able to escape but will use TP to escape if by the end of the turn is close to one of your heroes that is stronger then him, for instance.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 28, 2015 11:32 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
You can do whatever you want in your own maps, Woodmelon even prevented blind from appear and Archangels from flying in TDS but you can't say AI probably doesn't know how to use DD and Town Portal cause we can see those spells being used quite often.
Test it, start a game in a Tower with the grail, put the spells on the map and observe what happens. AI makes heavy use of travelling spells even if not very intelligently: can fly or DD to a place from where it can't came out while spending everysingle spellpoint to do it and then having wait for 15 days to be able to escape but will use TP to escape if by the end of the turn is close to one of your heroes that is stronger then him, for instance.
Okay but does AI ever cast Dimension Door 4 times a day and does it visit a well or magic spring on the way?, does it go to a Dungeon to double it's maximum spell points with Town Portal?, maybe it uses the spells but not very intelligently. And with Resurrection it will probably cast the spell if it has the mana but it probably won't keep the creatures resurrected as it probably don't have Earth Magic. With Animate Dead it at least gets to keep the creatures, but that is an advantage for Necropolis compared to the other Towns.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2015 09:37 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
maybe it uses the spells but not very intelligently
Yeah! That's what I said.
Parallels can be found to every other spell, you're just focusing on those. Even if Homm III has one of the greatest AI's I ever fought it still can be tricked many ways and most of them are now visually documented all over the net. If you're going to remove every little thing super players can use to their advantage you will end up with no game at all.
And Salamandre is right, you should ask a moderator to move your thread to the Library. This is not the place for this discussion.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 29, 2015 10:31 AM |
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Its a pity that what could have been a very interesting discussion is now only scratching the game possibilities because you have no will to learn this game, the editor and the thousand tools it gives you for making an unforgettable map.
Please, stop saying "AI probably this or that", it is YOUR map and AI does what you ask him to do. AI learns the spells and skills you GIVE him. Place events available only for AI which give to each of AI heroes the natural fighting skills, + air/earth magic schools. If want even more interesting game, place in those events a few badges of courage, capes of velocity and boots of speed. Etc etc.
All towns on map should have events giving triple or even more growth, available only if AI holds the town. In internal events, set one event giving 100 of each resource to every AI player + 99999 gold, and this every week.
Don't remove anything, "having resurrection makes all battles similar" is NOT true. Resurrect takes a lot of time and is tedious to do, so if you set the battles intelligently, the player will understand he has to replay them and minimize the casualties, instead of losing half hour to resurrect. But the spell must be there, so could be combined with a bunch of tactics, as blind, hypnotize, force field, mass slow, sorrow and quick sand. A goodly spell as force field is invalidated if AI casts dispel, so then you will have to use sorrow + mass slow to be able to resurrect back all your troops. There are endless situations and possibilities, you can have 500 battles in your map and each is different from previous.
But for this you must keep the most parameters in, to have variation.
Is exactly the opposite to what you say: all spells = same battle tactics. This is NOT true. Learn from The Lone Knight, by Hans, this should be your bible for mapmaking. A map where all colors are human selectable but when played by AI the game becomes incredibly hard and fun. You can't make good maps if you don't know by heart what others did and how.
Be creative, there is a reason HoMM3 is still alive and kicking 15 years after release.
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Era II mods and utilities
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2015 10:59 AM |
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Salamandre said:
if you want I can give you a list.
Guess I already have it but bring it on please. It's always good to actualize your information.
Thanks
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2015 11:03 AM |
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Maybe this topic should have been in Library of Enlightenment, but on the other hand it is mostly relating to HotA which changed a few things, so I think it is fine here.
Salamandre I know perfectly well how to build a good map, me and my friends have been enjoying it for years and I constantly try to improve it. To make special events for AI giving them extra ressources, artifact etc. seems weird to me, it should be able to take care of it self, on higher diffulties it already have an advantage with earning ressources.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 29, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Hota changes nothing to game mechanics. You ignore game mechanics but think you know them all.
On the other side, I see no point in asking anything if you don't care about answers and you still think you have them all right. This forum is like an astronomy forum where people watch beyond the stars then dream about flying to. Then there is one guy coming each week and claiming earth is flat, so how to see the stars on the wrong side.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Oh such a poet you are. 
I just asked for peoples opinions, it does'nt mean I have to follow them, that would also be pretty hard since people have different opinions.
You seem to have a problem with people having other opinions as you, what you say is true for you, but not necessarily for me and the other way around.
I'm really in doubt about those spells, in some way I think they should be available and in some way I don't.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2015 11:35 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
To make special events for AI giving them extra ressources, artifact etc. seems weird to me, it should be able to take care of it self, on higher diffulties it already have an advantage with earning ressources.
Well, wrong again. At higher levels AI starts with more resources but has no advantage earning them. If you play properly that advantage vanishes within a month.
Top players on Twitch often start with just 10000 gold and fewer other resources and beat 1 or 2 AI players within the first week.
Most custom maps will have events balancing this and that's what Salamandre's BAI is doing in WoG random maps for quite some time.
I like cheaty stuff like super creatures but I am aware of what AI's limitations are.
Watch any stream of a good player on Jebus, he will buy tons of heroes early game to faster explore the map and maximize resource grabing, setting up priorities. AI is unable to do that, so one must provide them during the progress of the game or computer players will lose any advantage they may have early.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 30, 2015 12:08 AM |
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Well if anyone cares, I will try and play my map with all spells (except Dimension Door and Fly) allowed, in all towns, just to see what happens. Keeping an open mind, ya know. 
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 30, 2015 08:09 AM |
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Quote:
have no will to learn this game, the editor and the thousand tools it gives you for making an unforgettable map.
It's a pity that people have no will to spend a year in order to make one singleplayer map.
Uhh, no, Salamandre, you are wrong here. The game should be balanced and smooth in all the circumstances, not only if mapmakers put a lot of effort into it. Also, random maps still exist in this game and should work nicely without 30 things players are forbidden to do in tournaments.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 30, 2015 08:58 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
*Armageddon
Level 70 Sandro with expert fire magic and sorcery specialty does barely 3k damage, by that time you can amass around 100k skeletons and compared with them armageddon is like a mosquito bite. Plus it can harm your own troops and you got to hoard creatures with magic immunity. By that time you should run around with hundreds of level 7. And in early game you should know how ridiculous its damage is, something like 200 damage or so, barely with lvl 7, so unless you manage to find Armageddon week 1 I can't see how it's going to be that OP.
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