|
| Thread: Skillwheels: an overview |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted September 20, 2015 11:56 AM |
|
Edited by TD at 12:03, 20 Sep 2015.
|
@Alci well there is rover which can give you boost of +6 extra movement from stables as I recall. It's of course completely map/faction dependent. It's too bad devs refused to increase the movement of hero(original movement points or boost to exploration) just because they didn't plan campaigns with higher values. They could've also made seperate master-data for campaign and custom games, but they refused that too
Btw what's up with explorer GM and governor abilities percentages? I was checking the skill-tree on SC-site and they got funky percentages of 16,7% and 9,1%... I never really took notice of them before, but given that the heros normal movement points were 21 or 22(as I recall) wouldn't it be more simple to just say they give +3 and +2 movement? Unless for example rover + stables(or temporary boosts in general) gets effected too the numbers don't really tend to change much
Edit: They changed mentor back to 25% btw
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:20 PM |
|
|
It gets from stables +6 movement per day AS WELL. Then it is OP.
I think those skillpizzas on the site are not with the right skills because metamagic is with its old incarnation.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:21 PM |
|
|
TD said:
they got funky percentages of 16,7% and 9,1%...
That's 1/6 and 1/11 respectively, but yeah flat bonus numbers would probably be nicer to look at, if harder to evaluate for the casual player (a +2 bonus can be much or little depending on what the base value is, whereas a percentage bonus is universal).
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:23 PM |
|
|
Taking a better look at the skill allocations, I can say that they are definitely terrible.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE PICK WARMACHINES IF THEY CANNOT FULLY LEVEL THEM???
Same applies to magic skills in magic heroes. It's not just the pointless restrictions that are also against the lore. But.. why would a magic hero be unable to develop a magic skill beyond tier 2?? Why should I play a sheriff or an enchanter to play earth with academy?? OR SHADEWEAVER IN PARTICULAR IF I WANT TO GET AIR WITH DUNGEON???
It's a mess that nobody asked for. They give you premade choices that may or not be to your liking and may or not even be balanced. Like with the faction polls. You like unicorns? YOU CANNOT HAVE PHOENIXES THEN! You like manticores? NO MEDUSA FOR YOU! You like blade dancers? HAVE A BLUE BAMBI FREE OF CHARGE!
This mentality is so freaking annoying.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:27 PM |
|
|
|
@Elvin The whole purpose of having those expert level magic-schools is to get the wisdom boost IMO, not to get the half-arsed spells. For something like warmachines I completely agree that they are pointless skills if you can't fully develop them.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:34 PM |
|
|
|
ok Rover doubles bonus from stables but it doesn`t double the refreshing bonus from flags or blind maiden. Still it is way OP. 35 movement per week more is like a turn and a half.
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:40 PM |
|
|
natalka said:
ok Rover doubles bonus from stables but it doesn`t double the refreshing bonus from flags or blind maiden. Still it is way OP. 35 movement per week more is like a turn and a half.
But you still gotta take into account that map might not have a single stables in it making the points used that far close to useless(compared to other skills at least). And even for factions with stables, you still gotta return back to town to get that bonus which can potentially eat half if not more of your "advantage" with the stables/ability(well depending how far away you are of course and if you got town-portal or not)
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 12:43 PM |
|
|
|
I am talking about multiplayer maps which all have stables and placed in a location so that with smart planning first 2 weeks you always have stables. Now I have to take the fun away. I mean the fun to plan to get the stables because it is so OP.
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 01:13 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
[...] This mentality is so freaking annoying.
I agree. Devs shouldn't limit the players but give the as many options as possible.
I was thinking about TotE skill system and I came to a conclusion that this is the best system in terms of factions variety. There are a few reasons that support that thesis: racial skills, semi-random selection of all skills, different prerequisites for the same abilities and faction-specific abilities.
Racial skills are an obvious pick. They are the simplest way to show that a hero belongs to a specific faction, especially when available in Heroes V/VII fashion, as a skill, not a gauge-filling, activated fashion, like in Heroes VI. They just felt... not right.
Next comes semi-random selection of all skills. I believe that such a system is great, as first, it gives access to all the skills, but in such a way that probability of getting each skill differs across the faction. We get both freedom of choice and differentiates factions. The latter is missing in Heroes VI and the former in Heroes VII.
Moreover, we have different prerequisites for the same abilities. While nearly all factions share the nearly same skills and abilities (with an obvious exception of Stronghold), you don't have a feeling that their skillwheels are the same, as some abilities have different prerequisites across factions. Look at Empathy (Leadership.) Most factions required Diplomacy (Leadership) and Arcane Exaltation (Enlightenment,) while Knights needed Divine Guidance to get it. There aren't that many of such examples, but there is enough of them give a sense of variety.
Lastly come faction-specific abilities (outside the racial skill, of course.) They enhance the effect described in the previous paragraph, therefore I won't repeat myself.
Overall, if devs want to satisfy long-time fans, I would reccomend analyzing once again TotE skill system, as its supremacy isn't only fans' whimsey but aftermath of its thoughtful design.
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 01:28 PM |
|
|
TD said:
@Elvin The whole purpose of having those expert level magic-schools is to get the wisdom boost IMO, not to get the half-arsed spells. For something like warmachines I completely agree that they are pointless skills if you can't fully develop them.
IMO : it s not too difficult to use opposite schools. All they have to do is cancel AK, plus when a school is picked, you have to ban the opposite school.
Then your maximum number of school is equal to 4 (as the other series...).
AK is useless.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 01:52 PM |
|
|
I forgot to take the source material with me, so I was unable to update it this weekend. Hopefully I will be able to do so coming monday.
I'll also include the image posted from that Russian guy in the opening post then.
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 02:40 PM |
|
Edited by keldaur at 14:48, 20 Sep 2015.
|
alcibiades said:
natalka said:
I see many heroes without explorer. How will they compete on fast maps is debatable...
You mean, because they don't get those extra +2 or +3 movement points? I think they'll manage ...
I am a bit tired of arguments withouth any basis.
Master = +3 movement
Pathfinding = -50% penalty rough terrain.
Snatch = Picking up resources withouth movement spending
Rover = *2 movement bonus (which is snowing insane)
Naltaka, yeah on the beta it worked that way (you double the bonus) and i already said weeks ago that i found it a overpowered, i was speeding through the 3 player map like a crazy. On bad neighboring it's actually very useful too, as there are plenty of flags down there. got stables day 15, and then rushed down, cleared everything in one week, even tho i could just rush my opponent and win by that time.
Then you come to this forums and you read a lot of people complaining about how crappy explorer is. It is really obvious you didn't playtest it.
____________
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 02:42 PM |
|
Edited by keldaur at 14:45, 20 Sep 2015.
|
natalka said:
ok Rover doubles bonus from stables but it doesn`t double the refreshing bonus from flags or blind maiden. Still it is way OP. 35 movement per week more is like a turn and a half.
Flags are a +6 movement i think, which get buffed by rover, not a refreshment. I think blind maiden also gave a movemement boost aside the repleshment, as i remember them being extremely useful when speeding around with rover.
Heroes like Sylsai and Ciele were extremely good on the beta, since they got easy warfare, offense and master or GM explorer. By third week you were clearing whole parts of the map in no time.
____________
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 02:51 PM |
|
|
|
I didn`t complain explorer was crap I am insisting rover is way OP. Refreshing bonus is not doubled I tested it.
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 02:54 PM |
|
Edited by keldaur at 14:55, 20 Sep 2015.
|
Yeah refreshment it wasn't, but flag and shine didn't give the same buff as far i remember (i remember flags giving a flat +movement, i could be wrong). I know you weren't complaining, but it's a common trend around here, and i already answered a few weeks back about rover, and people still insist to crap on explorer because of the skill bonus, instead of looking at the abilities.
I don't disagree with Rover being too strong, specially since there are heroes that don't have access to it, and i don't see any way to compensate for not having it.
____________
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 03:12 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 15:17, 20 Sep 2015.
|
Both blind maiden and flag refresh 6 movement. On the beta there was a bug if you get rover and then you visit a flag and your movement becomes +20(from stables) and then a maiden and it becomes 65 movement. But that is just a bug.
keldaur, you said it in your own words. Let me rephrase it. There is no way for some heroes to (have) compensate it and when the other main hero has it that`s a big advantage for him. That`s a turn and a half for a week assuming the map has stables which most of the maps do.
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2015 03:48 PM |
|
Edited by TD at 15:49, 20 Sep 2015.
|
Looking at the statistic on page 3 we have:
Essentially same classes by GM(racial + specific skill + magic school):
confessor + wizard + mystic
Archon + earth shaper + starsinger + shade weaver
Inquisitor + Blademage + battlemage + storm caller + thornsower
Priest + enchanter + sorcerer
Exactly same classes by GM(even magic school is the same):
Paladin + bone guard
warmonger + vindicator + avenger + shadow slayer
Ebon knight + necromancer + dark prophet
Battlemage + storm caller
That leaves about dozen classes that are at least a little more at the unique side from rest
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 21, 2015 10:12 AM |
|
|
natalka said:
The charts are completely off by the way. Lasir is not a Ranger but a magic hero also Ciele doesn`t have GM luck. At least that is what it shows in the beta. Unfortunatelly no Light for Sylvan also
I have to go by what the MMH7 website tells me. According to this info, both Ciele and Lasir are Rangers and have GM Destiny as one of their three GMs.
I don't have access to the beta anymore and don't plan to hack the game to make it work outside of the beta schedule. Not only do I consider that too much effort for a beta, but also I simply lack time in reallife at the moment to concern myself with that .
One more week before the game goes live and we should have all information at hand. When that happens, I will scan the lists in the OP and correct them where needed. I will update the OP with the new info in a few minutes, currently busy making the new images.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 21, 2015 10:16 AM |
|
|
hey who said I hacked the beta 
anyways I am just eager to play don`t judge me wrong.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 21, 2015 10:44 AM |
|
|
natalka said:
hey who said I hacked the beta
anyways I am just eager to play don`t judge me wrong.
No one did! 
Anyway, masterpost is updated with the latest info.
|
|
|
|
