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| Thread: What is truth? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 12:35 AM |
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What is truth?
What I'm not asking here: what is THE truth about life, about death, about love, or anything else, or which is the truth, or how we search for it, but how do we define it? Is it a universal definiton, since truth is conventionally universal? Or, is it not? What we call true I'd say we decided based on our own experiences, and usually after having some sort of evidence.
Going to post the quote that inspired me, but I'd say that the question that I ask now isn't intended for religious discussion.
Quote:
John 18:37 CEB “So you are a king?” Pilate said.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. I was born and came into the world for this reason: to testify to the truth. Whoever accepts the truth listens to my voice.”
38 “What is truth?” Pilate asked.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2015 01:01 AM |
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The full answer is quite complicated, but to simplify, there are generally two clusters/kinds of truths: those we know from experience and those that are derivations within a "system". The first category has members as different as the freezing point of water, the number of hairs on your head, the name of the US president, and many others - what unites them is that they're not something you could know (even in theory) without evidence for them. In this category, a truth is something that consistently matches observations - for example, if we regularly observe that water freezes at 0 C, then it's true that water freezes at 0 C. (Of course, this is a simplification, but I hope it gets the point across.) The second category of truths includes the truths of mathematics, game theory, and similar subjects, as well as of statements that are true by definition ("all bachelors are unmarried", "all squares are rectangles"). For many of these kinds of truths, they are true because they follow from certain axioms or foundations that are independent of experience - in theory (but really only in theory), you could discover them without having any input from the external world.
So a truth is something that either accurately and consistently describes experiences or something that follows given certain principles/axioms/foundations/etc.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 01:15 AM |
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I was aware of the two general kinds of truths, but thank you for being detailed nonetheless.
And I can see your point of view and I think it's quite valid.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2015 01:36 AM |
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Very good question, especially nowadays when relativity is such a popular view to hold. I remember reading on greeks and their definitions, one in particular sounding like it summed it all up quite well: truth is that which corresponds to reality. If I were to word it in my own way, even if just for emphasizing a crucial point, it would be that in the literal sense there is no such thing as "my truth" or "your truth", nor two or three or many other multiple truths. There is only one and only single truth. People often confuse truth for preference, hence the idea that truth is relative. I think such people do not understand the boundaries between them. One other thing which I think is very important to note is that truth is not human-made, it is a value outside of us. And that's about all I can convey on the subject for now. Time's pressing.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 01:39 AM |
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I think truth and reality are obviously connected, but some don't even define reality the same way, and yes, they confuse the truth for preference. Too many times. And even I do that sometimes. It doesn't mean I'm right.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 13, 2015 01:53 AM |
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There are two types of truths, universal/eternal truths, and situational/subjective truths.
Truths in the first category would be things like, energy cannot be made nor destroyed, the most basic fundemental truth is that nothing ever dies, because whatever made us tick cannot be erased or created, we are energy and return to Nirvana if we so choose.
Subjective ones are trickier. They are temporary or subjective, such as "I am alive", the tree is green, the sky is blue (this one is particularly interesting, since the sky ISN'T blue, but it is still a truth, because for all intese and purposes it IS blue because that's how it is perceived).
Despite what you may think the latter is superior, the former is valuable if for you they are both one and the same. An individual must accept the universal truths on their own terms, by living by their own codes and truths, if a day comes when those fail them then they adjust them accordingly (it's never perfect, we are human afterall, still this is the basic steps to improving and reaching the end result, which is harmony pure and simple).
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 01:58 AM |
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Again, a good post, Tsar, and I'd say that subjective truth is what actively makes changes or divisions among humans, so I agree.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 13, 2015 03:06 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:08, 13 Nov 2015.
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mvassilev said:
for example, if we regularly observe that water freezes at 0 C, then it's true that water freezes at 0 C
This is also a truth by definition because the scale is defined as such, and the definition becomes complicated. This definition is also only true under certain conditions, and as we learn/observe more, the definition changes. You can measure the boiling point of water at (artificially) 100 degrees a million times and conclude that is the truth. Then you climb a mountain and it is quite different. What's the truth? The truth is, there is no single boiling point of water. It is all contextual. The truth is that is no general truth about the boiling point of water, even on a non-relative scale.
Moreover, observational truths are limited by instrumental precision. Is it the truth that the sodium D line is 589 nm? It's certainly a valid observation, if this is the limitation of your instrument. But Joe down the street has an instrument that can measure it actually as two lines at 589.0 and 589.6 nm. Truth? Bob has an even better spectrometer and he measures them at 588.995 and 589.592 nm. Which is the truth? Is any of them the truth? Is it actually possible to observe the truth at all, or only merely better and better approximations of it?
Of course, in the quantum world it gets even weirder because you can't even measure anything with infinite precision. This isn't an instrumental limitation; it's a fundamental limitation of reality, where observables are probabilistic rather than deterministic. We can observe these statistical distributions, but its impossible to know a single piece of data, the trajectory or position of a single quantum particle at a single moment in time. In some cases, it is thought that the act of observation actually determines the state of a system (not the other way around), an effect known as wave function collapse. What is the truth in these instances?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 03:23 AM |
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Good argument, Corribus.
And, what people observed in the past related to all fields of science and not only that, sometimes turned out not be true in any way, despite that the "wise" were those that decided.
So, even universal truth wasn't always perceived as such, and many would think that some of it isn't seen as such now, who can know...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2015 03:24 AM |
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lol, i had to:
Corribus said:
This is also a truth by definition because the scale is defined as such, and the definition becomes complicated. This definition is also only true under certain conditions, and as we learn/observe more, the definition changes... What's the truth? The truth is... It is all contextual. The truth is...
Moreover, observational truths are limited by instrumental precision. Is it the truth... ? It's certainly a valid observation, if this is the limitation of your instrument. Truth? Which is the truth? Is any of them the truth? Is it actually possible to observe the truth at all, or only merely better and better approximations of it?
Of course, in the quantum world it gets even weirder because you can't even measure anything with infinite precision. This isn't an instrumental limitation; it's a fundamental limitation of reality, where observables are probabilistic rather than deterministic. We can observe these statistical distributions, but its impossible to know a single piece of data, the trajectory or position of a single quantum particle at a single moment in time. In some cases, it is thought that the act of observation actually determines the state of a system (not the other way around), an effect known as wave function collapse. What is the truth in these instances?
duuuuude, you're blowing my mind. 
but seriously, you should post this kind of content more often. 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted November 13, 2015 04:25 AM |
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What is truth? Truth is what is.
I may not be able to measure or perceive or understand the "what is" but that does not change what is.
If everyone in the world agreed that the moon is made of cheese the agreed upon "truth" does not fit "what is" and therefore is not really truth.
Our challenge is in seeking to really see the "what is" through our individual eyeglasses tinted with our misperceptions of the "what is."
____________
Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 04:28 AM |
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I think you know you and I agree, Elodin, but I wanted a debate to see different opinions, or else I wouldn't have started the thread but simply consulted the Scriptures. This is not a question I ask in order to form a new opinion for myself, but to discuss.
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mvassilev
Responsible
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posted November 13, 2015 04:53 AM |
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Corribus:
All of that is true, which is why I said that was a simplification. To accommodate some of the complications, you could say that water freezes at a certain temperature at a given pressure, you could bring in phase diagrams and/or the concept of specific heat, and so on. At least, if we measure water at atmospheric pressure, we'll find out truths about water at atmospheric atmospheric pressure - contextual, but objective.
As for measurement difficulties on the instrumental level, it's not unreasonable to say that an approximation that's good enough to predict observations is the truth in a broad sense, even though it's not the precise actual value.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2015 08:59 AM |
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This is a two-fold problem for me.
Truth is a word that describes statements, statements being a depiction or mapping of it. If something is "true", then it's meant to be in line with an objective reality. This is even then the case when the word comes with a restriction. For example, when you say something is "subjectively true", you mean that it's a truth for a certain person.
However, the question is whether there IS an objective reality - even subjectively: you may think that it's true you love someone - but maybe you just WANT it to be true...
Therefore, "truth" is something you need complete knowledge for to determine, and complete knowledge - all-knowingness - is something very far away.
Mv came up with mathematics, and that's actually something supporting this. If you consider mathematics as a universe that was started by humans on the foundations of a couple of axioms: there ARE some consequences or questions that are undecidable which means there are statements in mathematics we don't know about whether they are true or not BY DEFINITION (famously, Gödel proved there MUST be undecidable things in each "universe":
Quote:
The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an "effective procedure" (i.e., any sort of algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers (arithmetic). For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system. The second incompleteness theorem, an extension of the first, shows that such a system cannot demonstrate its own consistency.
It may seem like a big step to take this think about "reality" as a consistent set of axioms - but if you consider that mathematics is the things that helps us understand what's going on, the step is a lot smaller.
So. Truth is based on knowledge. Think about Newton and Einstein. Newton didn't know everything pertinent to come up with "the truth", but it was a darn good approximation. Einstein's was a truer truth - except there is no such thing.
So we are at math again:
Truth is the limes of of the chain of n known and proven facts defining something you want to state a truth about, n becoming infinite (or in case if those are finite: complete).
To illustrate that, truth is somewhat an important word in everyday life, when at court. Justice is based on those who judge knowing as much of the truth as possible, but nothing is more prone to lead to injustice than knowing only half the truth. Obviously, the more is known about the case - proven facts - the more complete the picture becomes, while you approximate "truth".
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 13, 2015 09:57 AM |
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To me, truth comes in two forms.
The first form is an absolute form: the things that are. Even if we cannot measure them (see above examples about the freezing point of water, or wavelengths), they are. These are absolutes: if you had instruments that can determine it to absolute precision, you can measure it a million times and it will be. The same way it has been all those times before.
The caveat that I make here is that conditions determine a specific point in a plane of possibilities. When measuring the boiling point of water, you do need to consider moisture levels as well as air pressure. Provided you know all but one of those prerequisities, you can accurately determine the missing one.
Historical occurrences also fall into this category. For instance, it's a truth that JF Kennedy was assassinated on november 22th, 1963, in Dallas.
The second form of truth is subjective and based on human whim and perception. It may be an absolute truth that little Jack stole a few cookies from the cookie jar, but the subjective truth may be various - and even multiple motivations may apply. For instance, little Jack may have been very hungry, or simply loved the specific cookies in the jar, or perhaps he wanted to frame a brother or sister for it, because he's really a mean boy and enjoys seeing them getting punished.
The assassination of JFK also has truths like this. He has been murdered on that date, but the reason why is shrouded in mystery. Was he the victim of organised crime? Was he the target of a plot within the government and did they conspire to get rid of him? Was it a lone wolf who simply hated him and wanted to get rid of him? Intentions color truths like these with a subjective color; they are motivations, usually driven by emotions. They cannot be measured, even if their outcome is rocksolid (like JFK is quite obviously very dead since that fateful day).
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted November 13, 2015 04:00 PM |
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... I don't like these obvious yet still vague questions lol.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 13, 2015 04:12 PM |
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Kayna said:
... I don't like these obvious yet still vague questions lol.
For some like me, it's these that are more interesting.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 12, 2022 08:08 AM |
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Thank you all.
Any more thoughts?
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 12, 2022 09:28 AM |
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The Crew snow, once Catholic Girl Mary and Joe's girlfriend said:
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the best
Packard Goose - Frank Zappa(of Joe's Garage, Act III)
I don't necessarily agree with this, but let me add that this quote starts with
Albert Einstein said:
Information is not knowledge.
, but continues with
Quote:
The only source of knowledge is experience. You need experience to gain wisdom.
Where it stops, never even mentioning truth.
Truth is just another word like say, Perfection, the semantic equivalent to numbers like Pi or e.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 12, 2022 09:38 AM |
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That's a good way of putting it, JJ. Thanks.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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