|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
posted November 22, 2015 07:13 PM |
|
|
Taoism
Is anyone interested in discussing or curious about this philosophy/religion? I see it as a philosophy, personally. But I do know it can also be a religion, albeit not similar to those more familiar to me, Judaism, Islam and firstly Christianity.
I had a course on Ancient Chinese society and culture in uni, and I found much of it fascinating, Confucianism, Taoism and Legalism being a bit different from what ways of thought I was familiar with until now. I find Taoism especially interesting.
While I do not know all the mystical aspects of Taoism, nor do I wish to practice it, I find that much of the founder's wisdom is still relevant.
Link
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 22, 2015 11:57 PM |
|
|
|
i'm actually reading my copy of the i ching right now. i just panned through it before, years ago. i'll let you know if i find anything worth mentioning, as i just got past the multiple forwards.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 12:25 AM |
|
|
Great, thank you fred. 
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 02:27 AM |
|
Edited by Celfious at 02:32, 23 Nov 2015.
|
Words define and quantify only perceptions of what is. What is a waterfall, is our perception of something only define in the same way of understanding that we created words. Like a realm of language. I strive to live as not only the average ways of perception but also in a way similar to the general writings of the Tao.
On one hand language is entirely helpful in conveying undefined thought clouds from being to being, but on the otherhand languages seem to confine a majority of its users. Confine from what? You can use your words to answer that question but I prefer both that along with comprehending before the chains of language.
I am not sure if this entirely relates to the Tao but it certainly does to me.
|
|
Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 02:37 AM |
|
|
Well placed topic.
I THINK I have something lying around about this tao thing. Actually I think I threw it away because I got rid of a couple books.
As an orthodox christian, I do have interest in other kinds of oriental spirituality, I do believe there are points of contact and that other philosophies and religions have fragments of the Truth (don't expect anything further from that  ).
Academia.edu is a good site to check, they have some stuff:
https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Taoism
I started reading Hermann Hesse's Siddharta yesterday (during a game actually xD). It deals with some aspects of buddhism from a more credible perspective (not that beatnik junk).
____________
Death to the world.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 02:41 AM |
|
|
from what i have gathered so far, eastern concepts of thought differ from western concepts of thought because with eastern thought, thinking is(was, i read that the chinese no longer use this way of thinking) supposed to be fluid, and constantly changing, to match the natural world and it's ever-changing cycles; whereas western thought was a more concrete thing, and less capable of change. this fluid thinking was represented by symbols, which supposedly was able to communicate the nature of the movement of thought.
heyyyyy, wait a minute. am i doing your homework for you? in that case, find cliff's notes on the subject. they'll cover the basics, and whatever's important. or so i've heard; i've never actually used cliff's notes myself.
|
|
Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 02:56 AM |
|
|
fred79 said:
from what i have gathered so far, eastern concepts of thought differ from western concepts of thought because with eastern thought, thinking is(was, i read that the chinese no longer use this way of thinking) supposed to be fluid, and constantly changing, to match the natural world and it's ever-changing cycles; whereas western thought was a more concrete thing, and less capable of change. this fluid thinking was represented by symbols, which supposedly was able to communicate the nature of the movement of thought.
heyyyyy, wait a minute. am i doing your homework for you? in that case, find cliff's notes on the subject. they'll cover the basics, and whatever's important. or so i've heard; i've never actually used cliff's notes myself.
Easterners tend to be more contemplative and ascetic. Westerns tend to action and legalism. Christianity, again, gives the perfect framework. Take a look at the Orthodox Church and compare it to the (schimatic) churches of the west. Totally different approach. The sun rises in the East... 
____________
Death to the world.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 03:40 AM |
|
|
fred79 said:
heyyyyy, wait a minute. am i doing your homework for you? in that case, find cliff's notes on the subject. they'll cover the basics, and whatever's important. or so i've heard; i've never actually used cliff's notes myself.
No worries fred, I studied more than quotes about it, but what interests me is exactly what you said, that the way of thinking is different. And I am interested in hearing different opinions from you and from Celfious as well. I can see where he's coming from.
Svartzorn - I am educated Orthodox myself and I understand the differences probably better than the rest here, but I still would not compare our traditionsl way of thinking to the Ancient Chinese. You have a point, though.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 09:25 AM |
|
|
|
Taoism isn't exactly a religion, at least not in the Western sense of that notion. It is prone to mysticism though so it's not exactly a "pure" philosophy either. Similarly to the Confucianism, it's a vague "prescription" of how one should develop him/herself but while the Confucianism is much more tangible with the "do this, don't do that" topics, the Taoism leaves much to be interpreted by each individual, as long as he/she follows "the way".
|
|
Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 12:59 PM |
|
|
Good to meet a fellow orthodox in this great forum!
I'm not comparing our traditions in any way, of course, I'm just saying there are some similarities because of the wider oriental ethos.
____________
Death to the world.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 23, 2015 03:58 PM |
|
|
Z. - in that case it would be better to call it as it was originally called, a way of life, or for them, "the Way".
Confucianism and Legalism were to me a little too much about what we in the West call ideologies and Lao Tzu's wisdom felt to me as quite inspired. Of course, what I studied was just introductory stuff.
Svartzorn - I saw your point, do not worry. And while I see the value in Western teachings, both Catholic and Protestant, the Orthodox faith is indeed more ascetic, and there are more things that separate us from Rome than doctrine.
I hope I could get a translation of Taoist works.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted November 24, 2015 01:40 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 01 Dec 2015. |
Edited by Galaad at 00:55, 25 Nov 2015.
|
We are in the period of the Fighting Kindgoms (those fighting between themselves for hegemony) during IV-IIIth centuries... But from the legend Lao Tzu (“the Old Master”) is contemporary of Confucius during VI-Vth centuries. In fact the existence of his book, the Tao Te King (or Daodejing), meaning “the Path (Tao) and its virtue (or the power of Tao)” is not certified before 250 B.C., that is during the final period of the fighting Kindgoms preceding the Chinese Empire in 221 B.C. In 5000 words, they are stanzas to be sung or memorized, a thought going by metaphorical aphorisms, jumps from pillar to post, lightning comparisons. The publication can be read and applied on many aspects at a time: individual culture of the “absence of action”, application of this principle at the art of governing or in martial arts, research of methods for living longer, etc. In these troubled times, the problem is knowing how to get out from the vicious circle of violence and survive when the rulers are killing each other... Basic assessment is force always ends up turning against itself.
Quote:
He who acts, spoils; he who grasps, lets slip.
Hence the paradox of non acting. It is the only way to break the circle of violence : by absorbing aggression, by refraining to attack in return in order to avoid outdoing, in the never ending ascension, ensuring aggression becomes useless.
It is the strategy which consists to win by giving away : hence the water metaphor, the most humble of elements, resisting nothing yet capable to overcome most solid matters.
Quote:
It dwells in places the masses of people detest / Therefore it is close to the Dao.
Quote:
There is nothing in the world softer and weaker than water, and yet for attacking things that are firm and strong there is nothing that can take precedence of it.
Just like the Tao water springs from a unique and constant source manifesting under multiplicity of forms.
From its unseizable and labile nature, it is at the edge of nothing and something.
Because it keeps flowing down it is where everything converge, as the Valley, it is yet what gives life to any thing, symbol of the Yin conquering the Yang by attraction rather than constraint. Hence the Mother figure. The book favors femininity in front of the Confucian order axed towards the Father figure.
The paradox is that the weak triumphs from the strong, the supple from the rigid. Defusing violence is to put oneself lower than the opponent, as what provokes aggression is to put the other into inferiority position. This idea is at the very basis of some fighting techniques in Chinese martial arts which swarmed into other extreme-oriental cultures such as judo (which is the Japanese pronunciation for “roudao”, the way of the supple, directly borrowed from Lao Tzu).
***
The non-acting wins over acting by the way of being rather than having or doing. It is not doing nothing but refraining oneself from any aggressive or directed action, in order to let act the invisible strength of Tao. The “Saint” is the one helping a thousand beings to live in accordance to their nature, without interfering, which gives life without claiming ownership, achieve its work without getting attached to it, acting without prevailing over.
The most radical paradox lies in the concept that nothingness is more valuable than the something, the void more valuable than the full:
Quote:
Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there.
Absence has more presence than what is there, the void has an efficiency the full lacks.
To place something is placing its contrary :
Quote:
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly / Long and short define each other / Sound and music harmonize each other.
These paradoxes have a basis for the assessment of natural law : all that is strong, hard, superior has been in its origin weak, soft, inferior and is destined to become it again. This is no moral issue : just as the most low waterway is "king" of upper waters as it is them enriching from this water, the Saint taoist by making himself lower than others will make them to follow his path. This is what is being called acting by non-acting.
If the Saint taoist does the opposite of what is being made, it is neither by calculation nor desire to distinguish himself, it is not in the goal of becoming stronger, it is that natural law of each thing is to go from bottom to top then go back to the source. Or, humanity in its absurdity keeps on opposing this by struggling in order to attain power and superiority. Instead of tiring ourselves by swimming against the tide, let ourselves being carried by the wave : he who is at the trough of the wave in order to avoid being submerged and drowned let himself being carried knowing thus he can only get up.
Quote:
The Tao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fullness. How deep and unfathomable it is, [as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things!] ? Who is his farther ? I do not know. He was there, I think, before the celestial sovereign.
Quote:
Governing a large country is like frying a small fish, you spoil it with too much poking.
Non-acting is a way to go back to original natural state, be in the uttermost simplicity, as even in the way of being is a way of being someone, willing to affirm oneself, to impose its self. It is needed to get back below until complete absorption of there is into there is none.
Quote:
Chap. XL:
Returning is the movement of Tao;
Weakness is the use of Tao.
All things in the world come from being.
Being comes from non-being.
____________
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 25, 2015 01:08 AM |
|
|
|
Thank you for sharing, Galaad.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted November 25, 2015 08:19 AM |
|
|
fred79 said:
heyyyyy, wait a minute. am i doing your homework for you? in that case, find cliff's notes on the subject. they'll cover the basics, and whatever's important. or so i've heard; i've never actually used cliff's notes myself.
<LOL> Those were my thoughts.
|
| |
|
|
