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| Thread: Water magic - everything about it | |
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 08:29 AM |
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Edited by Maag at 08:45, 05 Jan 2016.
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Water magic - everything about it
The reason why i decided to make this particular topic is how people often treat water in these forums.
As i see, it is widely considered "the worst of all magic sorts" so to speak.
May I ask why is that?
Few tips: Clone (which in my humble opinion is one of the best combat spells).
Perfect to cast on AA-s, Titans, sharpshooters, also AB's, u name it.
Especially on the creatures with high attack/damage and no enemy retaliation, like cerberus, Naga Queen etc.
Prayer, which is like haste, but insted speed +5, u get +4 speed, but also +4 attack, +4 defense.
Often find in Castle town. Imho great to use Castle-Tower mixed army, where u have AA-s, Titans, Naga Queens, Champions...
I think it is no need to introduce, how beneficial cure and dispel are.
Crag Hack could be the best hero of all game, but he would not get water magic. Yes, i know he's tough guy, but if u start before him, i really like to blind someone like AB or cast mass curse, or berserk or whatever.
What's more? If u get expert water in very early game and could get spell "Forgetfulness", then it is one of the best spells in game against all archer creatures on map.
Imagine fighting against large quantity of Grand Elves or Beholders, mages, sharpshooters (ouch!), even cyclopes (which are level 6).
With that spell they all walk towards death. Esp. good against the archer with melee penalty, like Cyclopes, elves, marksmen etc.
Teleport could cause trouble, often used on Fortress where units are slow. Often casted to maneuver Hyrdas or gorgons etc. For F town water is basically granted.
Mass Bless, again, a must for Tower, Fortress towns. Also common in Castle. Not the spell u would use as first spell u cast, but later on in some case could be really useful, for Titans, Grand Elves, many other archers with large damage range.
I am thinking Precision is better even, but that affect Archers only while bless goes for everyone in general, except dragons, necros, etc etc.
I expect many of you would not share my thoughts. Arguments are welcome. Please keep the thread clean from other non-related matter!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 05, 2016 08:41 AM |
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Mostly because analysis are made with multiplayer both hero setup and map setup in mind. A random map will not contain same stacks you find in a custom map, like 10k elves or so, where forgetfulness is necessary. It will have a few decent stacks, where you can prevail with a simple mass haste and the growth of 2 weeks.
Then in multiplayer, natural fighting skills as armorer, offense, archery are very important and will make a difference. Logistic also will be important, as the hero moving farther will fight more and have better skills.
Then earth magic/air magic are almost obligatory, for all kind of monsters, if have both even better.
And ultimately, as you said, water will not be offered for strong heroes, sure there are other ways to get it from locations on map, but the player start with a different setup in mind.
This was for human vs human. Now, for custom maps, water is godly skill, cloned archangels will resurrect more, forgetfulness is much needed, sometimes dispel too, then some maps require expert summon boat too, so you can't skip it.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 05, 2016 09:41 AM |
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I like Water Magic, it has many nice spells and is very important to Fortress, it's also good for Castle, Conflux and HotA Cove.
Water Magic becomes more important on island maps or maps with large amount of water for Summon and Scuttle Boat and Water Walk. Air Magic might be more important than Water if Fly and DD are available, otherwise Air does'nt have much good besides Haste.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted January 05, 2016 12:04 PM |
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Here I thought Fire Magic was the worst, since it does not have many useful spells (aside from Blind or spells like Curse).
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 01:26 PM |
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Edited by Maag at 13:38, 05 Jan 2016.
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EnergyZ said:
Here I thought Fire Magic was the worst, since it does not have many useful spells (aside from Blind or spells like Curse).
I once figured it too. But to be honest it depends. Fire is a must for Inferno and for Stronghold for instance and fire imo has some of the best combat spells and most combat spells. It specializes on combat, while air is strongest on non-combat.
But coming back on water again.
Salamandre, how about water magic if u are on random map, but with water present and playing Fortress or Castle? Or why not, Tower?
I have played also without water and every time enemy casts to me spells like mass curse or mass weakness or some other curses or just blinds, it annoys me. Ofcourse blind goes for one stack so u can dispel/cure it even without water, but still..
But yes, in another hand, u need archery, offense, armorer and logi. If u have earth, air too plus wisdwom, u have only one more left, it could be tactics, so it is hard to fit in water. I realise that.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 05, 2016 01:41 PM |
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Maag could you tell why you think Fire Magic is good for Stronghold? Is it only for Mass Bloodlust or? I personally go for Air (and of course Earth) for Stronghold.
I also believe Fire is the weakest magic school. Except Berserk, Bloodlust and Curse I can't find much use for Fire Magic. Blind and Armageddon works fine without Fire Magic and it does'nt have any adventure spells.
So I would say:
1) Earth
2 & 3) Air & Water depending on map layout and spells available one could be better than the other.
4) Fire
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 05, 2016 01:46 PM |
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Maag said:
The reason why i decided to make this particular topic is how people often treat water in these forums.
As i see, it is widely considered "the worst of all magic sorts" so to speak.
May I ask why is that?
My impression was fire was considered the worst.
Trying to simplify, Earth and Air offers the greatest on the map mobility and sufficient spells to deal with most creeping, making both schools superior.
For a main battle, I don't think any school is better than any other, but since people mainly have air/earth here, I think the other two schools may get underestimated. Like you say there are many good water spells, and similarly there are plenty of good fire spells. E.g. if one where to look at the battlefield as zones of control, a spell like Frenzy can make a huge difference of the dangers of traversing the battle field in an even final battle. Not to mention the more obvious Blind and Berserk, though if your opponent knows you've those, they probably won't work. Finally once unit count is really plenty, I think sacrifice may be way better than resurrect.
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 02:21 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Maag could you tell why you think Fire Magic is good for Stronghold? Is it only for Mass Bloodlust or? I personally go for Air (and of course Earth) for Stronghold.
I also believe Fire is the weakest magic school. Except Berserk, Bloodlust and Curse I can't find much use for Fire Magic. Blind and Armageddon works fine without Fire Magic and it does'nt have any adventure spells.
So I would say:
1) Earth
2 & 3) Air & Water depending on map layout and spells available one could be better than the other.
4) Fire
Sorry, for Inferno is a must, fits for Stronghold too and for Dungeon or Conflux. That would be more exact.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 05, 2016 02:49 PM |
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Maag said:
But yes, in another hand, u need archery, offense, armorer and logi. If u have earth, air too plus wisdwom, u have only one more left, it could be tactics, so it is hard to fit in water. I realise that.
Exactly. Now, if we had the choice, I would pick water over tactics if 8th skill and middle game. But the chances air, earth then water -all three- are available to a might type hero are very slim, near non existent.
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Era II mods and utilities
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batoonike
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 05:20 PM |
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I think the first post over values the power of ranged units. Eg boosting your own shooters and using forgetfulness on enemies. This is great but mass haste negates much of the need to forget anything. For your own shooters mass slow is more important and much more accessible than clone.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 05, 2016 05:28 PM |
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Earth and Air and still the best, because of Slow and Haste first, then other very useful spells. Water and Fire can't rival that, but of course they have their uses.
Especially Clone 
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted January 05, 2016 05:41 PM |
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Mass Bless with Mass Stone Skin and Mass Shield is good combo. I like Water and Fire Magic over Air. Earth Magic is the most important magic for every faction, then water for buffs and Fire for curses or Inferno/Dungeon/Conflux Armageddon.
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 08:36 PM |
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Edited by Maag at 20:37, 05 Jan 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Maag said:
But yes, in another hand, u need archery, offense, armorer and logi. If u have earth, air too plus wisdwom, u have only one more left, it could be tactics, so it is hard to fit in water. I realise that.
Exactly. Now, if we had the choice, I would pick water over tactics if 8th skill and middle game. But the chances air, earth then water -all three- are available to a might type hero are very slim, near non existent.
It depends on might hero. My fav. Tower hero - Neela, whenever I play with her (and I play with her damn often ), she rarely fails me there. I would get these 3.
But whether alchemists are playable, or not, we can discuss in another topic.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted January 05, 2016 08:52 PM |
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Funny thing on that school is when compared with MM7 water spells, given both games were launched around the same time, but spells were set in a rather different manner (even considering two different genres). Perhaps due the migration of H2-3 spell system?
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 05, 2016 08:52 PM |
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Edited by Maag at 21:01, 05 Jan 2016.
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batoonike said:
I think the first post over values the power of ranged units. Eg boosting your own shooters and using forgetfulness on enemies. This is great but mass haste negates much of the need to forget anything. For your own shooters mass slow is more important and much more accessible than clone.
Sorry, since I'm still new here, can I type different replies all in one post? I didn't see chance for it.
Yes, I see what you are saying. So therefore I stated in very early game if u face let's say a lots or even horde of Grand Elves for instance.
U don't have in early game probably many units, which could reach GE-s and hit them down without some loss. Even u have those attacking units, it is imho more convenient/safe cast mass Forgetfulness. They need time to reach u. Meantime u can mass bless your own, if u have it. Well, isn't it nice?
Muide, tore et siin veel eestlasi on 
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted January 05, 2016 10:22 PM |
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in MM7 you get more magic schools comparing to H3 or H5. Also beta H3 uses MM6 spell icons.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 05, 2016 11:05 PM |
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Maag said:
Sorry, since I'm still new here, can I type different replies all in one post? I didn't see chance for it.
Not directly, no, but you can "trick" it. Just open the post you want to reply to in another tab on your browser, by opening the "reply" option in that other tab. Most browsers have a functionality to open links on a page in another tab of that browser, in any case.
Then simply copy the text from that reply into the reply that you opened in the original tab and voila, combined in one post. Takes a slight bit of work, but it's doable.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2016 09:29 AM |
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One thing that is missing here is presence and in some cases abundance of anti-magic artifacts. Orb of inhibition makes any combat-related magic less useful, because there is a chance opponent will be using it, and recanter's cloak limits water quite significantly too.
For these reasons, and factoring in the fact that online multiplayer is usually waterless random maps, I would rather pick tactics than water.
But then again, archery is not very good on random maps either, unless you play HotA or happen to have a lot of dwellings. So as an eight skill water is acceptable.
Which brings us to the single class that is most hated for getting water a lot. Rangers. First time you will get a magic offered is most often lvl4. And I can tell you, if you get water there it will slow your tempo down. Taking tough guards and beating cons is much easier with earth, and slightly easier with air. Besause bless is not all that effective, and clone, prayer, water elemental are far from achievable week 2 if you go for army.
But suppose you take water, why would you not if its chances are so high? Because then every time you get water ofered as a level up skill, you reset the countr for a magic being offered. So you will have to wait till level 12 or so before you get air or earth. And in the meantime you can get bad skills, and ruin your main. And this is one of the reasons people will rather pick other average skill, like scouting, over water.
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batoonike
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2016 04:40 PM |
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Maag said:
batoonike said:
I think the first post over values the power of ranged units. Eg boosting your own shooters and using forgetfulness on enemies. This is great but mass haste negates much of the need to forget anything. For your own shooters mass slow is more important and much more accessible than clone.
Yes, I see what you are saying. So therefore I stated in very early game if u face let's say a lots or even horde of Grand Elves for instance. [...]
Actually what I'm saying is that it's a lot easier to get mass haste or mass slow than it is to get clone. Just because mage guild level 4 is required, while haste and slow come from level 1 guild. + the scrolls. + the heroes that start with them. + buildings that give spells. Also getting a specific level 4 spell in the guild is less likely than getting a specific level 1 spell. Level 1 guild is also built as a requirement for good creatures in some towns, so you get it "for free", compared to level 4 guild.
Add it all up and if you get a choice between water or something else then chances are something else is better. Maybe not fire but others are.
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