devilfire said:

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The spell system in HOMM series has always been mixed (buffs, debuffs, damage spells, utility in the same spell schools), while in HOMM 5 its more specialized. Some of the distinctive perks of this kind of spell system are both pros and cons in the same time:

1. Its specialized, maybe too specialized - want to buff? pick Light, want to debuff? pick Dark, want to wreak some havoc? pick Destructive, want to have utility and creative spells? pick Summoning

-> On paper its good to have exactly what you paid for, but the problem is that you get that and only that.. nothing else. There is no versatility in the schools - Light can only buff, Destructive can only damage etc.

2. They are themed in a slighty different manner - they are themed by their functionality as a whole - buffing (no matter if its offensive or defensive buff or healing or anything else), debuffing, damaging, only summoning got diverse spells

-> This is both good and bad. Theme wise its good because its easy to learn - one school is doing one thing (with the exception of summoning), the bad is that the schools cannot be balanced entirely that way because super buffed armies will always be better than the high damage spells (mostly mid to late game, considering that in MMH 5.5 there are more ways to get army and there is much more magic resistance)

3. Having only one kind of spells per school is leading to monotone battles that you know exactly what to expect, even the order in which the spells are executed

-> Again, its easier to learn it this way, but HOMM has always been a
chess-like game, not a checkers-like. Fireball is always going to be better than Circle of Winter etc. which means that you would expect a lot of Fireballs from a Destructive magic master and perks only makes that more obvious. The surprise factor is missing entirely.

What are the advantages of a mixed spell system ?

1. It will bring diversity - no more monotone and predictable spell usage, Fireball will still be better than Circe of Winter only if you have both, but it won`t be that easy to achieve that because they will be in a different spell schools, also having their perks in different trees means that you can pick the extra effects from one and leave the other, or take both if you want.

2. More versatility - if you want a specific spell go for it and get a lot more in the package without penalties

3. Balanced spell schools - Destructive is great in early game but it fades off, while Light and Dark are the other way around. Now that every school have both damage spells and buffs/debuffs it will be a lot more comfortable to pick the school that you want because you will have the freedom to play as a damage dealer in early game but still use buffs and debuffs in late game when you feel the need to.

4. Every spell will have its place - in the current system fire based spells and skills are all over the place, while the other elements are almost non existent, this is making certain skill paths and strategies a lot more viable (I`m looking at you fire path in destructive).

5. A lot new strategies that are more interesting than "buff your army with every single buff in the game".. (just a few examples: lower the armor with a fireball and hit with a buffed attack/damage stack or summon an earth elemental and buff his defense even further to have the ultimate tank or lower the defense of a enemy stack and then flash freeze him for one hit K.O. etc etc)

6. They can be organized theme wise in a balanced way - for example water/ice is associated with healing, so its a natural choice for regeneration, fire is associated with damaging so its a natural choice for divine strength or righteous might etc but in a way that you would still pick a offensive/defensive/utility path but it would be executed in a more versatile and balanced way, so that one spell school cannot have the best buffs, debuffs and damaging spells. Also they can be centered according to what they do - fire can be centered around offense and damage, earth around defense and terrain based spells, water/ice around support and slows and lightning around utility and stuns

7. Occultism and mostly Empowered spells will be a good choice for every spell school instead of just for Destructive as it is now, also Mark of the Sorceror and Counter spell will be a lot more interesting because they will require a lot more thought to be used perfectly

8. Magic resistance is going to be more useful all around, not just against Dark and Destructive as it is with the current system

One thing that is both advantage and disadvantage is that if the schools are mixed it won`t have might OR magic differentiation in the class based skill trees, but this will lead to more diversity in that the different classes would utilize the same spells in a different way and with a different strength.

What are the disadvantages of a mixed spell system ?

1. It will require a lot of work to transition from a specialized spells system to a mixed one - perks will need to move from one tree to another, some of the perk names will have to be changed to better fit their school

2. The perk support is not as versatile as it could be, so some compromises have to be made, atleast they are already balanced in a way that they buff certain spells (for example master of wrath is buffing Righteous Might and Haste which are both offensive spells etc)

3. Some spells are not fitting very well - Curse of the Netherworld, Word of Light, Summon Elementals can fit in every school. Maybe Summon Elementals can be given to every school?

4. For ultra polish it would need to have a different icons along with the name changes and maybe some visuals can be changed to fit better (for example Blade Barrier can be renamed into Ice Barrier and have a ice blocks particle)

5. Dungeon`s Elemental vision.. that one is a hard one if it cannot be made that every damaging spell is receiving the effect of elemental vision instead of just Destructive ones. On the other hand if it can be made, then they will be a true master of elements, not just Destructive.


I will be happy if someone want to express their thoughts and feelings about the mixed spell system.

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Tiptoe_McGuffy said:

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devilfire said:

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- arcane crystal`s and blade barrier`s core is the same -> blocking with an object, eventually one will be better than the other but why do you need both in the same school if you can have one of them in a different school and open an entirely new option for it ?

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Arcane crystal has been extremely useful to me when fighting banks, for blocking shooters and revealing stalkers. All this discussion about "yeah, but this spell is better when..." just goes to show that each (well, almost ) spell is more useful in some situations than others, which is near ideal.

-> Noone said that Arcane Crystal is not good, its just too similar to Blade Barrier. BB is essentially the same but a little longer. Its like having Righteous might that give you 10 attack and another one that gives you 15 attack and call them different spells.

Mass Decay may not be good in the endgame of large maps, but it can be pretty great early on or in castle fights where the enemy at first just tries to stay clumped together and shoot you without moving anything. It's a lifesaver with Agrael vs. Gilraen in C2M3 on Heroic (Although I played that on 1.0 so probably not still relevant.) But what IS relevant is that, while MMH5.5 is multiplayer-oriented, it doesn't have to be multiplayer-exclusive. There's a HUGE potential for fantastic custom maps and campaigns, especially once an RC is finalized so we won't have to worry about future updates invalidating parts of our maps. (if that ever happens or if it's even something I should worry about.)

devilfire said:

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- exactly, his Fireball won`t do as much damage as expected, but if he had mass Divine Strength he could just go all-in and it would be surprise for you because he just played around your Fire Resistance. Thats entirely different approach to the battle rather than just throwing some Lightnings

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A hero with destructive could get mass Divine Strength by also taking Light because he's a magic hero. This was my original point about how specialized schools encourage surprise and diversity by taking more schools, instead of being able to do everything with just one.

-> You won`t be able to do everything with just one ever. One will always be better at something than every other at that particular thing, but they will be diversified in a way that you can pick any school and play by your rulls. You can`t play as a nuker with Light or a buffer with Destruction right ? Well, you will have that opportunity with the mixed spell system, Ice or Lightning won`t be as damaging as Fire, but it will still be decent, while Fire will not have the powerful buffs of Ice and Lightning but it will still have its uses.

devilfire said:

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There is no "out of the box" option about the current system. They will have the exact same playstyle that cannot be changed no matter what.

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Light uses Teleport THEN Mass Haste, teleport is devastating.
I think, in the replay, the hero is actually Dark Magic and got the light spells from Teleport Assault and Power of Speed, which slightly undermines my point, but not too much. Diversity and surprise. When you see an assassin in the Tavern, you might think Dark Magic, maybe Destructive, but certainly not Light.

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strigvir said:

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devilfire said:

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All in all some spells function in the same way and are too similar in general and the one will always be better than the other if they have to compete for the same place.

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If you move them to other schools, then the schools will have to compete with each other. It won't make Deflect more useful, just the school having it less desirable.

-> It will not be less desirable because it will have other strengths that will be better than the school that have Endurance. Every school will have its strengths and weaknesses and one skill will not change that in such a drastic way.

devilfire said:

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I will give you another example. You picked every Fire damage enhancing item and perk in the game, but you are against Fire resistance and Magic immune creatures. You can always throw some Lightnings but why do you specialized into Fire then ? Now give divine strength to Destructive and you got another option -> go all in with your creatures because now you have the damage to do so. Its your choice.

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You went all fire but didn't take Occultism, even though you know there are hard counters to it?

-> How is Occultism going to help me against Shatter Destruction ? Also we are talking about an playstyle change in the middle of the battle, there is no such option with the current system.

devilfire said:

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Another example - you decided to take every bit of magic resistance that you came across. You enter the final battles only to see that your opponent have Light and Summoning and you counter just a few spells of his entire skill set. Now your Magic resistance is wasted. But with a mixed spell system it won`t be, because every school will have damage and debuffs that you can counter, so your Magic resistance will actually force your opponent to play differently because you will be able to counter 50-60 % of his spells.

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So you basically want to make magic resistance mandatory?

-> Its a mechanic like any other, so it should be as desirable as any other. It won`t be mandatory just useful all around, like any other stats - Attack, Defense, Speed, Initiative etc.

devilfire said:

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3. Magic heroes will have a wider arrange of spells to deal with different situations

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Two schools already give a wide arrange of spells, and you can take them without "gimping" a magic hero in general.

devilfire said:

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4. This system will promote using different schools together because of the spread out spells and perks which mean that if you want to be a true master of the elements or buffer or debuffer or summoner you will have to combine them instead of picking only one and using the full benefits of it.

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I guess that explains why I always go for 2+ schools as a magic hero, because the current system doesn't promote combining different schools together.

-> Thats right, you got a wide arrange but every spell from the same school have the same base - Light got only buffs, Destruction only damage, Dark mostly debuffs, they are like one trick ponies. They are one trick ponies with the exception of Summoning, this is a school that is done right!

devilfire said:

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Many new combinations will open. For example if you give Decay to Fire school, couple it with Ignite you will have the possibility to play as a damage over time caster. You can do that now, but I highly doubt anyone would prefer to use Decay over Mass slow or Vampirism etc.

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Why would I choose Decay over Phoenix, Elementals, Mass Haste, Teleportation, Deep Freeze and Implosion? You are comparing a single low-level spell versus either perk-only or level 5 spells. You wouldn't build a DoT-based character with Decay moved around, as even the direct damage spells scale poorly with the army size, let alone DoTs.

-> Because most of those will be in different schools than Decay, also Phoenix can be easily killed with more than one ability, so its not always good to start with it, elementals will not make a difference, mass haste is a good one, but it won`t be in the same school with Fire because that will make the Fire school too overpowered, same goes for teleportation, deep freeze and implosion.

devilfire said:

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Mixed Spell system will mean mixed Perk System too, so you will be able to choose what you want to do with your spells. A good example of that can be Master of Storms and Ignite. Its not that Master of Storms is bad, its just not better than Ignite, but if Master of Storms didn`t compete for the same place as Ignite then you could freely pick it up without cutting the other, more benefical path.

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Master of Storms would have to compete with other mass spell perks then, how exactly does it change anything?

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