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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 19, 2016 12:09 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 00:53, 19 Jul 2016.
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Maurice said:
I admit I am having a hard time actually interpreting your post, but I will try to understand what you're trying to say.
Of course not, both are radical islamic groups that slaughter people by the hundreds. However, ISIS also stimulates a fight taking place in Europe, calling on radical elements to commit acts of terrorism within European countries. Boko Haram is happily slaughtering people by the droves just in Africa. Despite their name, they yet haven't done anything substantial towards Europe.
"Boko Haram" and "ISIS" this the same thing like a Infantry and Marines of Army of the France. If braindamaged human from ISIS will meet a braindamaged human from Boko Haram, they will act like a close family or a close brothers, almost the with the others radical-islamic organization.
So you can easily imagine how they connect with each others on the economic level.. etc. radicalism + Islam = a perfect glue for such things...
Maurice said:
The mess that happens in Africa - while disheartening and saddening - is a fire burning over there, without actual influence in Europe. The stuff happening in Syria and Iraq does have backlashes into Europe and hence, being European, does concern me a whole lot more.
Hmm... This is a "Elodin's GUIDE TO POLITICAL LEFT" point of view..  .
1) The radical-Islamic organization grows their power in the poor regions that suffer from a war-military conflicts, from a poverty, from a lawless life..
2) The Europe itself, involved in this conflicts almost from begging, i.e. World War II, Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present), Iran–Iraq War, and the other endless flood of violence and suffering that has been participated by Europe, USA, Soviet Union. In the all this conflicts the propaganda of violence, destructive nationalistic ideas, radicalism, and even weapon/instructors of war supplies was provided by above mentioned players.. - The Middle East Modern Conflict, or I am saying something wrong?
3) The main propaganda direction of the islamic-radicals, is a something like Elodin is always repeating in his/her posts "they all are bad. We More radical measures to immigrants. More ... More.."
In the ISIS version this will be like this: "They came and kills our children! They all are bad! They must suffer like we are! More suffering for them... more... more.."
4) The Islamic-radical propaganda, compared with poor region hardcore life, compared with continuous bombardments and killing civilians by "West" make a pretty good results, even in case of Europe based muslim-radicals.
5) The situation with terr. attacks in Europe is a logical sum of this factors. So hell yeah the situation in the Middle East and Africa connected to the Europe.
Or I am wrong?
Maurice said:
To forbid islamic streams and currents like Salafism from European soil. Such groups should be put on a list of forbidden organisations, on the grounds of undermining Western democracy and the values of freedom and equality that come along with it. By outlawing those organisations you can root out their visibility and thereby (severly) reduce their growth. As of right now, those groups can happily conduct whatever they want, authorities don't really stop them from doing so. In the mean time, they are turning people away from our modern society.
Nonsense, you distinguish a normal Muslim from a radical one, this is the same with Christian, i.e. Elodin - looks like a good Christian Samaritan, but when he starts to light up his ideas... Obviously , this is little bit different.. 
I mean, only a "pure radicals" may be forbidden , any restrictions from a peoples that hell not know Islam from a inside to any of Islamic "churches" will produce a more radicals instead.
Maurice said:
After such groups have been forbidden, national security agencies will have to point out members of those groups, make sure they're apprehended and punished with either jail time (including rehabilitation by forcing them into a de-radicalisation program), exile to a Middle Eastern country (revoking any European passports they might have in the mean time) or both. Given the values and beliefs they hold high, they have no place within our society whatsoever.
Blurring nonsense this is.
1) Forbids the member of what groups O_o? ISIS? - they all are forbidden long time ago..
2) How do you distinguish the "pure Islamic-radical" from Christian Catholic pries? Do you think a professional killers, and terrorists act organizers cannot mask thyself ?
3) About rehabilitation - a pure nonsense, rehabilitation like "Guantanamo" ? Just look less of "Camelot cartoons", and play less for a "Heaven" faction in Heroes, with sun-shining paladins and stuff whahahha - I am joking.
the idea is next, the above mentioned text is utopia.
Maurice said:
Also, they should do a few more things in that light as well:
- Deny foreign imams from entering Europe to give lectures in mosques;
- Deny funding of foreign countries to build mosques in Europe;
The brilliant idea! Sure.. And how do you realize where is "radical imam" and where is not? O_o .
And yeah, perhaps right after the "mosque law" you must create a second law - "not to buy energy resources from a UAE and Iran and stuff...", because right after you will deny a "mosques building" they will obviously will "rise the prices" whahahhahah ...
Maurice said:
No, that's not what I said. I talked specifically about people who are caught in a hopeless situation. Living here in Europe, unable to progress in life due to various obstacles (education, language, cultural misunderstandings, etc ...) and just not having anything to look forward to. Those people are susceptible to people who can manipulate them towards more radical thoughts. What I said was that those desparate people need to get a way out of that hopelessness, to see a better future for themselves.
+1 Yeah... If this "best future" would be a deportation-like stuff, this will obviously decrease a number of radicals.. Anyway, +1.
Maurice said:
As it is, most of the terrorist attacks in Europe have been commited by people who have been born and raised in Europe, but who somehow lost touch with our European society and found a listening ear with extreme and radical islamic rethoric, which pointed out the enemy to be that European society in which they couldn't succeed. If we can prevent them from falling into that hopeless situation to begin with, we prevent them from turning into radicals and thereby deny groups like ISIS potential recruits who can slaughter innocents in the name of islam.
Forgot this nonsense, you cannot just delete radicals from Europe itself - a very good example a Europe modern radical nationalism and neo-nazy stuff...
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 19, 2016 12:43 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 00:56, 19 Jul 2016.
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Elodin said:
I am not a Catholic and would not presume to defend everything the Catholic church has done. However, the crusades had nothing in common with jihad. The crusades began when Muslims began conquering Christian lands,in order to push back the Muslim invaders.
The moderator has been mentioned about "not go too far from actually the main stuff of the topic" but you started it again..
You are lying, I hope only to me and the internet users, but not to yourself.
Military campaign, that after named "Crusade" has take its beginning with:
1) The military/political leader plan?
2) The religious leader. ? Urban two
Your answer is? :
What were a main thing that sticking together a highly religious (and pretty low civilized compare to the other Earth) European society and the "crusaders" themselves?
1) Military Codex.
2) Nationalism.
3) Communism
4) Christian religion
Your answer is: ?
Why did "crusaders" making a massacre of Jewish folks? - Rhineland massacres
1) Because "crusaders" were barbarians, rapists and marauders (like "Marauder" skill in heroes )
2) Because they were Nazis, that obviously do not like a jewish stuff .
3) Because Jewish folks was a different religion folk, and because a "crusade" was "Holy War" campaign against the heretics, the pagans, and unbelievers, bla-bla-bla.. to save a .... Holy Grave of Jesus Christ
You answer is: ?
Elodin said:
Today Muslims are waging jihad (holy war) on the West but the West is not really pushing back.
Yeah... And that because the European cities that is WAGED on war, buying an energy resources from totally Islamic UAE and stuff, and that because the Libya, Iraq, Syria, and stuff cities , that is NOT waged on war suffers bombardments, poverty, and endless military conflicts with Europe directly involved there..
Elodin said:
Islam is mandated to conquer the world.Christianity is not.
Wow-wow-wow... wait a minute boy!  ... Holy moderators, give to me the power to stop my troll within! Because, I do not know. Lol, I am joking..
Huh... So Mr. Elodin, why, please tell me WHY do you believe that a whole frigging Islam and Muslims wont to conquer your precious World (I hope you mentioned only Earth, because NASA/ESA will conquer a Mars first I hope ).
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 12:47 AM |
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France is a quite unstable country imho. It lacks lots of inner security and it's instable itself if you see the unemployment rate of young ppl there burning cars and making "terror" on their own.
As for Europe itself... it's very destabilized 'coz of nationalism caused by the few rich ppl. (private owners of media empires) It's a lot of makebelive and propaganda to distract the masses from the rich ones, banks playing with virtual money and creating one depression after another. hedgefonds the same tragic story. But they all blame the foreign ones for that... see "Brexit"... caused by UKIP, same stuff but different name: AfD in germany, or FPÖ in austria... nationalism is back after 70 years... and its controlled by a few super rich ppl.. "Cui bono" always counts, for anything today.
Meanwhile we're about to escalate a third world war at the russian border. In Europe nobody reports at all about this stuff or what happened near the russian borders aka NATO troop deployement. Any russians here? I guess I get more information about this stuff here than in TV.
Turkey is quite special in these days... quite the same as third reich's beginning.
Edit:
As for muslims and terror... the chance to get hit is so damn low, it happens all over the world in africa in iran, the worst bombing and massacres are in muslim states not in Europe... But nobody gives a f*** about Somalia, Iraq or other countries ISIS bombed too... Anyways... crusades did the same stuff some more years ago... it was even worse than bombing in case of victims. The rest is just publicity and propaganda...
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 01:09 AM |
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Only allowing immigrants with families in, never let them leave unless they're all together and jailing the families of terrorists for life would be a realistic way to solve these terrorist attacks.
Hmmmm. Can't believe I just wrote that.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 19, 2016 02:17 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 02:25, 19 Jul 2016.
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JollyJoker - for first, IMHO you are too brave or a too fool... (As for me, I am dumb ;/ ) , obviously I hope do you realize how extreme your posts are, and perhaps the things like a Tor Bundle Browser will help you.
For second IMHO .
+1 For a most peoples a statistically the same, they want to long happy peaceful life (even if they didn't know it before  )
+1 I think the truth is far more complicated, and I cannot check it, like you, JollyJoker too (I think so), but the hell something unnatural with "war" and "terrorism" definitions in the modern human societies...
+1 Obviously: terrorist act + mass-media = > hysteria reaction + radical nationalistic/religious-movements in the victim country = > more violence against the civilian "enemies of West i.e." = > more terrorists = > more terrorists attack + mass media = > .... Yeah, somekind of a spiral. And this is easy to realize for anyone.
+1 - I see no ways to stop the terror madness except the attack direct to the source, and obviously this i not so easy... But it is too easy to kill dozens and maim hundreds in the large countries like a France or US with modern technologies ;/.
+1 For IRA/ETA vs Great_Britain/Spain example. I have forgot about this. And obviously you cannot conquer any modern countries with suicide bombings, perhaps only the Vatican with 1 km^2 area . I am joking.
Regardless of your scaring avatar (it is looks some similar to JollyJoker one), Zenofex - you seems to be on the sane rational (and perhaps humanistic) position too. so +1 for ya IMHO
Salamandre - "all terrorists in France are issued from Immigration and all are from Islamic countries"
- This is Totally nonsense. If even you does virtually managed to delete the ALL immigrants from France, you cannot protect the ~60 million populated country with 650,000 km^2 area from a professional terrorist organization. this is almost impossible...
If even you did stop some terr. attacks, they will try until they will succeed again and again..
I have mentioned the good tactics against terr. org. in the first page.
They attack France not because there immigrants, they attack France because they think that France is responsible for death of "islamic civilians brothers and sisters". organization like ISIS - used their propaganda in terms of "defensive Jihad". This propaganda idea is impossible to be beaten with a blinded bombardments of rural folks or somethings.
"I am just amazed how muslims advocates are surrealist.
I am just amazed how you are smart.... So when Islamic radical make a terror , with their "defensive Jihad" that takes a root in the poor regions and in the time of a Cold War.
You making a prediction that the ALL muslims must be oppressed because of this, and we are "muslim advocates" - Lol, you are ingenious!
Perhaps I must make an oppression against the all Christians, because some of them helped Nazis to make their "black work" and you will be an advocate of this Christians .
Yes, it is true that one can' t completely stop all jihadist attacks. But such attacks can be mitigated to they happen less frequently.
Elodin
"Monitor mosques to see which mosques preach jihad. Secure the border. Will some jihadists get through? Yeah, but if you do it right most will be caught at the border.
Thouroughly vet immigrants. Temporarily cease Muslim immigration. Some exceptions, such as well known Muslim businessmen can be allowed.
If an someone says he is a Christian you contact his supposed pastor. Don't say it can't be done. Work with religious organizations that know the pastors/rabbis in the area.
When you root out jihadist networks in the nation and Muslims begin to assimilate then you can think about resuming vetted Muslim immigration.
However, immigration from places where Sharia is the law of the land must always be very closely vetted. Sharia believers will never assimilate and will always be a thorn in your side. "
Wow, mr. Elodin you are bright and smart. I think must work as main leader of the US. FBI/CIA stuff! Sure, your ideas is so new, and revolutionary... Really mr. Elodin, go there and get the job! You are perfect Christian radically logic will be a superior anti-terror tactical help .
So the borders are insecure now, huh I always though that France borders i.e. is well guarder, much more well guarded than a casual cafe or theater...
And how "monitor" the borders, with cameras that make an alert against the beardish men in turban . I think ISIS will find the way to avoid this restrictions .
So I imagine the situation on the border... "Are you Muslim?" - Inshalla! DENIED ! DENIED DENIED!  - Omg, this barrier will be so hard to avoid for professional guerrilla terrorist organization, OMG - Why the "spineless West politicians" as you named them, do not realize this before ???
"contact to pastor for Christianity verification" - WHAHAHHhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... I am sorry. I just imagine the situation on the border. "Are you Christian? - The God Bless with you... Please tell us how we can connect to you pastor. Ma' pastor is frigging Pope of Rome by himself! Call him! bew-bew-bew ... The line is busy , please recall after 15 minutes... bew...bew...bew. DENIED! DENIED! DENIED! " lol...
"When you root out jihadist networks in the nation and Muslims - of course with such methods as you mentioned you will have a GREAT success, I have no doubts! C'mon man!, lets do it! Killing machine, "khoo khaa" .
Moderators - I am sorry! But this mister Elodin, with his advanced knowledge of a real, no cartoon-Camelot life is just a, I do not know, I am trying to be serious with his.... text. :L
"Sharia believers" - mr. hmm, Elodin, how do you want to distinguish this your "Sharia believers" and the actually Muslims? O_o.
"Yes, it is true that one can' t completely stop all jihadist attacks. But such attacks can be mitigated to they happen less frequently"
Do you think a professional guerilla terrorist organization , that from the beginning of itself existence only one thing doing - the war, terror, etc, cannot "hold on" the frequency of terrorist attacks 1-2 per year with hundreds of deaths and thousands of wounded ? O_O.
You are pretty optimist . In the large country like a France even if you will deport the all immigrants and make a 100 feet iron wall at the border?
Salamandre - As I mentioned before, the ISIS using Islam in their own goals. You must make attack on ISIS directly! , if you will make an attack on Islam, or on a Muslims, Muslim-immigrants, etc, like the all-honored mr. Elodin repeating and repeating in his posts, you WILL HELP ISIS instead.
Christianity, Islam - this is religions used to provoke a violence, a terror, a horror, a war by thousands of year, and similar idiotic radical politic religious-like ideas too...
AND this fact is hell not means that Christianity or Islam are violent by itself. Its just an instruments in the hands of ... of the "evil humans" .
P4R4D0X0N - Perhaps the stuff about ecobomics is too complicated for me.. Anyway,
+1 For Somalia mentioned, this a far from Europe, but there a hell horrible situation ... And obviously the radical-Islamic stuff there is a very powerful. .
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 19, 2016 05:29 AM |
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So, just read in the news from Germany: a 17 yo afghan refugee attacked people in a train with an axe and a knife, injuring 5 people before being shot by cops. And yelling Alahu Akbar but probably they misunderstand, he wanted to thank Angela for warm welcome.
Damnt those racist german cops, they didn't get it yet, JJ you should teach them how to deal with Islam religion of peace.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 08:48 AM |
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Salamandre said:
So, just read in the news from Germany: a 17 yo afghan refugee attacked people in a train with an axe and a knife, injuring 5 people before being shot by cops. And yelling Alahu Akbar but probably they misunderstand, he wanted to thank Angela for warm welcome.
Damnt those racist german cops, they didn't get it yet, JJ you should teach them how to deal with Islam religion of peace.
Maybe I overestimated your intelligence - no, their is no problem with Islam, the same way there is no problem for women with men or for Germans with people from Afghanistan. I mean, there are 120.000 people from Afghanistan in Germany, and you want to tell me that ONE of them, a 17-year-old who obviously was overwhelmed by the cultural differences who managed to hurt 3 people before the cops were there and shot him dead, is not only a TERROR attack, but also proof for a problem with Islam?
If you had taken a bunch of 17-year-old Native Americans out of their country around 200 years ago and put them into a modern German train, you might have witnessed more than one of him losing it and starting to attack passengers with their tomahawk, yelling "Manitou" or some such.
France - I repeat is - has a problem with its past. If you want to understand the sizuation, start reading here - you'll get the picture.
You may have a look at French colonies - and then you may take a look at the facts for Immigration to France.
The immigrants in 2008 list is interesting; it shows that 45% of the immigrants are from other European countries, 30% are from the ex-French Mahgreb colonies, Maroc, Tunesia and Algeria and a further 10% from the Sub-sahara ex French colonies (who can speak French, mostly).
Also interesting is the table listing children, Mahgreb being "over-represented", while Europeans are under-represented.
You really don't need to be a genius to conclude, France has been having social problems with immigrants from their ex colonies for a long, long time - not with MUSLIM immigrants. It's basically the same thing in Britain - and it sure doesn't help if muslims are called "Osama" for no reason, except that people are becoming wary.
Then there are of course the criminal gangs (of Arabs and Africans) - now, SURE there are. For the same reason you have black gangs in the metropolitan ghettos of the US, like, in a simple equation:
U(nemploymen) + G(hettos) + I(diotic laws with regard to recreational activities) = C(rime) + V(iolence)
As long as there is the left side of the equation there will be the right side as well. And their religion isn't the reason, as much as skin color isn't the reason for it in the US.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 19, 2016 09:19 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Maybe I overestimated your intelligence - no, their is no problem with Islam, the same way there is no problem for women with men or for Germans with people from Afghanistan.
How wonderful! This means we can let Bering Breivik out of jail since he isclearly innocent!
Frankly JJ, I know you are on the left but have you ever considered reading their s-c holy book or even had a look on their actions?
Besides, a maniac trying to kill innocent people like your family or a fanatic trying the same thing won't really shift your sorrow should one you love and care for be one of the victims?
JollyJoker said:
You really don't need to be a genius to conclude, France has been having social problems with immigrants from their ex colonies for a long, long time - not with MUSLIM immigrants. It's basically the same thing in Britain - and it sure doesn't help if muslims are called "Osama" for no reason, except that people are becoming wary.
But aren't you tying yourself up with your own argument now? Regardless if France and UK have had problems with immigrants before (muslims or no muslims) is it not then a obvious alert sign that the immigration, regardless from where it comes, must cease?
JollyJoker said:
As long as there is the left side of the equation there will be the right side as well. And their religion isn't the reason, as much as skin color isn't the reason for it in the US.
The religion is a big part of it and their culture aswell. I once again urge you to actually read the book. Besides, I do not really think they yell their battle cry because they are the only words they can remember in a hectic situation.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 19, 2016 09:35 AM |
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Saying in 2016 that there is absolutely no problem with Islam world wide is sign of mental sclerosis or extreme blindness. Even if we can argue ad-aeternam about islam problems in the west -does it or doesn't trigger terrorism and we will never agree on that, why do you skip every time Islam's nature as it is expressed in Islamic countries, where it is supposed to shine and show its true face?
In the absolute majority of Islamic countries there are no civil liberties, no freedom of speech, no criticism of the religion allowed -apostasy = death, no minorities rights. Conflicts occur due to clash of interests- ideological mostly. In most of the Muslim countries it looks as if ideological interests have come in forefront of all the clashes. Almost everywhere there is a rising demand for more strict adherence to the archaic rules and customs and less or no emphasis on health, education, sanitation, franchise, agriculture, industry etc.
Burka has become more important than bread or book. Progressive ideas can only invite criticism and intimidation. In such conditions, peace and progress are among the first casualties. Unless the Muslim majority is willing to keep pace with the time and change accordingly, there will be chaos, coercions, confusions and clashes.
Which we import. You claim yourself atheist yet you believe in fairy tales as a misogynistic, intolerant and uneducated muslim when entering in Europe, he will assimilate its culture in a second. Non sense, moreover people start dying atrociously around you while you unjustly accuse the wrong side of intolerance.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 10:30 AM |
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Well, wrong. I accuse the right side of stupidity.
Of course religion has been causing a lot of problems in the course of the centuries and millennia - and still does. Supposedly "Christian" terror attacks on "abortion clinics" as well as supposedly "Muslim" attacks on random people. All one-God religions are at odds with the idea of human rights, because for them there are no human rights beyond those their god grant or ungrant them, and all one-god religions are hopelessly elitist, because they consider themselves as believers in the one right idea of the world there is.
However, the overwhelming majority of all those "believers" are just imperfect humans who want to squeeze out a living out of their existence, and if you look around the world, you'll see that integration and assimilation actually work - provided, of course, you can avoid the formation of poverty-ridden ghettos of people with the same cultural background.
The most important thing when it comes to the general topic of immigration is LANGUAGE. Ask the US. Their "Chinatowns" and other islands of immigrants are a direct consequence of people immigrating into a foreign country without knowing the language, therefore being unable to communicate which means, they need people who can speak their language in order to communicate and to learn the local language - which is incidentally a prerequisite of finding a job.
Which means, there is just one option to handle immigrants and refugees correctly: 1) You can immigrate (permanent residence) only when you are fluent in the local language; 2) As a refugee or potential immigrant you will be kept in a temporary quarter and taught the local language until you are fluent in it or have proven you are unwilling to learn, in which case you are sent away.
That's in keeping with the majority of the German's view; a survey brought the result, that the most important defining things to be considered a German are 1) knowledge of the language and 2) having a job.
Religion plays NO role here, and we know that because we have muslim immigrants all over the world for a very long time now, and in reality things level from generation to generation.
Let's repeat, once again: the reaons for the current situation are
1) a reservoir of impoverished (and in terrorist target countries) hated unemployed juveniles and young grown-ups; and
2) a couple of fanatics with enough money to finance terrorism for personal reasons.
It's not THAT different from the stuff Gaddafi funded, except that you don't need to be head of a country to finance terror activities, with the West having ample experience how to do it themselves, considering they set up the situation in Afghanistan to create problems for the Soviets.
Then there are terror attacks and eruptions of random violence. It doesn't matter whether it's a school shooting or an amok run with a car - those are no terror attacks, because these things don't take any organizational preparation. Wait until there is a market going on, enter the truck you stole or rented, accelerate into the market and mow down people. EVERYONE can do it, any time - just as a school shooting - but that's just the acts of deranged people who don't see a future for them and/or suffer from some pain. They just fit the pattern, because they increase the level of hysteria, panic, phobia, hate, violence - and of course the drive to DO SOMETHING, to find the culprits, put them to justice, make it stop.
Terror attacks, though, are quite something else. 9/11. Subway attacks. Bombs in planes. Assassinations of known figureheads. Maximum damage suicide bombings.
We have to keep our house in order, especially France and Britain with their ex colony influx of immigrants, which means that we have to get rid of the depraved areas with high unemployment, high crime, high violence, muslim or not (and in France and Britain there are enough of those, not that we wouldn't have them as well in Germany, just not quite so big and so many).
That's incidentally the same thing our secretary of state said after the train incident - if you read the whole article.
I don't see anyone declaring war on the Vatikan because of genocide, telling the people of Africa that using condoms is sin, helping spread AIDS around. Count the victims of terror attacks, then count AIDS victims and the victims of starvation or local wars around the world, and then tell me there isn't good reason from the pov of the people in Africa to get some help, especially when they were all colonized by the West and exploited at one time.
And lastly, this is my last try to give a reasonable answer to your random scribblings that demonstrate only that some bias is keeping you from thinking straight. Yes, of course Islam is crap - but it's not really worse than what Christian was a century and more ago, when it comes to, say, treatment of women or gays?
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 19, 2016 10:54 AM |
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I think a summary of this thread would be the following:
Left: Immigration has a few bad sides but the majority of the newcomers will boost the country at the cost of a few terror attacks that can't be prevented anyway and it's not done after religion. Anyone who says otherwise is a cold hearted b*****d and a liar.
Right: Immigration is a calamity apart from a very few who comes actually earning their keep. Religion and culture plays a tremendous role in the peace and security of thecountry and must thus be expelled or integrated to the religion/culture of the new country. Anyone who deny these facts are a hypocrite and a fanatic.
Am I getting any close here or?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 11:24 AM |
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I don't know.
Look, USA are EXCLUSIVELY an immigration country (the actual native population lives in reservations), that started with the so-called WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). In the course of the century you had a lot of immigration, legal and illegal, and if you look at the US it's fairly obvious that it's neither the Muslims nor the illegal Mexicans who are the problem. The problem are the large depraved areas in the bigger cities where gangs rule, crime, violence, unemployment with lots of blacks (which, keep that in mind, were shipped INVOLUNTARILY into the country and would generally fit the term "cheap labor - not unlike what happened in France, Britain and Germany at one point).
I mean, if you allow crap heaps to pile you shouldn't wonder when they start to stink eventually and all kinds of ugly things will develop and fester and blight the surroundings, right? That's true globally, and locally as well.
For the thread here this means, even if you were able to seal the French borders COMPLETELY off - nothing would change. Because there are already too many heaps of piled crap that will have to be decomposed first.
Same as with the US, mind you. And it's all quite obvious.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 02:18 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
I think a summary of this thread would be the following:
Left: Immigration has a few bad sides but the majority of the newcomers will boost the country at the cost of a few terror attacks that can't be prevented anyway and it's not done after religion. Anyone who says otherwise is a cold hearted b*****d and a liar.
Right: Immigration is a calamity apart from a very few who comes actually earning their keep. Religion and culture plays a tremendous role in the peace and security of thecountry and must thus be expelled or integrated to the religion/culture of the new country. Anyone who deny these facts are a hypocrite and a fanatic.
Am I getting any close here or?
You forgot Centrist : Don't go to war and allow them in, or go to war and don't allow them in so we don't get counter attacked. Just make some god damn sense instead of trying to please everybody with two half measures, you corrupt politicians.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 19, 2016 02:40 PM |
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The comparison to inner city youth in US cities isn't a fantastic one, JJ. Yes, there are gangs, poverty, and a lot of violent crime associated with that, but generally the violence is confined to those areas. Gang members in LA, Chicago, and so forth are not strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up busses filled with random (affluent, white) people. They are killing each other in droves, yes, and innocent people are felled as collateral damage (kids shot through walls by stray bullets, say). But the nature of the violence and who its targeted against speaks a lot about the different motivations and causes. We do have people here in the US going into nightclubs and spraying bullets around, but they aren't inner city African Americans.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 04:12 PM |
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Corribus, look at the list of terror attacks in the US and tell me what you make of it.
Strictly spoken, and in my book, terror attacks are these atrocities some group takes responsibility for afterwards. Because that's what terror is all about: detonate a plane, then yell Death to Amrica and explain how you will destroy more targets in the near future. Because that's what's the terror is all about: it could be YOU.
What is no terror attack, though, is the rest of "outbreaks of violence"; instead that's the actions of obviously at least in some way deranged people who have no life anymore or feeling a kind of religious vocation, hear voices, develop conspiracy theories and whatnot. SINGLE perpetrators.
In the end it doesn't actually matter whether someone does in one outburst and dies or as serial killings over a couple of years, as an act of suicidal depression, delusion of grandeur, the desire to be part of the history books or whatever else. However, it's only A FEW cases. It's not epidemical, like, a virus, the virus of islam, exponentially growing to produce an increasing number of terror attacks.
This is somehow a France thread, and I brought up the US city ghettos, because the situation of ex-colony immigrants in France, are comparable. And, also comparable, the problems date WAY back in time, they are not new.
In the US, every now and then the racism card is played (like now). The kettle boils over, there is unrest, shootings, clashes, lootings - basically anti-establishment violence in the guise of anti-racism things, because the problem isn't skin color, it's being left to rot in the slums.
Same thing in France, only there it's not the racism card, it's the muslim card (because the overwhelming majority of the Mahgreb and Sub-Sahara immigrants are muslims).
The danger is, that nowadays everything is a "terror attack", everything is Islam-based (as opposed to nutcase-based), and everything is to blame on THEM.
EDIT: Also, the list of school shootings in the US is pretty interesting. Since 1960 439 people have been killed in school shootings (and many more injured)...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2016 05:08 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:11, 19 Jul 2016.
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Radical Islam exists and you can easily find a theological premise for it, if you search for a theological premise. There are many verses in the Quran that an ISIS member can use as an instruction manual and he won’t be interpreting them in a very far fetched manner. If you want to compare the theology of Islam and the theology of Christianity based on the texts as a scholar would, there is no doubt that Islam is more of a religion of battle in comparison. However, the theological premise is actually a castle made of sand: No matter how literal Islam’s supposition that every verse of Quran is directly God’s command may be, in the end, no religion is immune to social change and any history of theology is a history of cherry-picking. The Quran is the same book since 1400 years, but there are huge differences between the religiosity of Indonesia, Egypt, Albania, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Turkey, Africa, African-Americans… African-Americans would be a very interesting example, because most of the Muslim African-Americans converted to Islam in the 20th century, generations after they were assimilated by American culture, their conversion was part of a sub-cultural resistance movement, so now, a completely original variant of Islam exists there, they even go to mosques on Sundays, not Fridays, they have no sociologically consistent relation to jihadist attacks, although they live right at the heart of America, jihad’s ideal target. Now, the rising frequency of the attacks over the last decades, the regional or ethnic origin of the attackers, their relation to the targeted countries (the Nice attack was done by a Tunisian on French’s independence day, for instance) had been discussed over and over again in many threads. It’s blatantly obvious that the primary cause of these attacks is the conjuncture in the Middle-East, not the combatant verses of Islam. The combatant verses provide an ideological justification for a conflict, that is ALREADY there. And I must say, it’s quite annoying that every time we discuss this, everybody accepts it with a nod and a quick “yes, yes, of course… we shouldn’t have bombed them like that, stupid politicians” and then goes straight back to immigrant bashing, linking lynch mob videos from Kabul and so on. That blade cuts both ways, even with an extreme example such as Afghanistan. This is Afghanistan in the 1960’s, before the U.S. financed radical Islamists over there against the Soviets:
When the European industrialisation drastically changed world in the 19th century, transforming social norms in a scale and speed that was never seen before, it was not only the Muslim countries that got stung. From Japan to Russia, every country and culture had its struggle in its own way and usually it was bloody. The ultraconservative wahhabism of Saudi Arabia, for instance, is a 19th century movement. Is it true that Islam is significantly more resistant to change, social transformation and modern values. YES. It is certainly true. But it’s not intrinsically immune and the existing gap is rather a problem involving the Islamic theocracies themselves, not immigrants who run away from them. The radicalisation of the immigrant isn’t about Quranic verses, it’s about global politics and social issues of integration. And when we look at those issues, we don’t see a monolithic picture either. Germany seems to be handling itself relatively well, maybe partly because the Nazi experience serves as an historical vaccine and partly because majority of Muslims there are Turks who already come from another secular state and there was no Turkish-German conflict in recent times. France seems to be more polarised with majority of Muslims from North African ex-colonies. Nordic countries like Sweden, which are quite inexperienced about a multicultural society seem to be divided between clueless idealists who try to turn the society upside down overnight and reactionary natives who are now starting to sound like they live in the 1930’s. UK seems to be constantly in argument but it’s doing that in a very civilised -polite if you will- way, with its centuries old democratic and overseas traditions. If you put aside the foreign politics and anomalies like Trump, I think the U.S. also have a pretty decent record in not alienating its immigrant citizens, being a country that originated in immigration and all.
Of course, it is very reasonable to keep immigration at a certain pace, not take too many in at once, apply feasible assimilation policies. That is a solution about integration though, not terrorism. As long as the Middle-East conflict isn’t resolved, even if you wipe out all the 35.000 to 40.000 ISIS warriors in Iraq-Syria, newcomers will keep joining in. And internationally, how do they operate in our times? They declare a country is Dar-ul Harb over the internet, eventually, any deranged loser who wants to turn himself into a hero overnight or any autonomous cell of militants find a way to execute a suicidal attack in a crowded area. It’s a new method which can not be confronted with traditional counter-measures. The ISIS attack in Istanbul airport 20 days ago that killed 44 people was executed by 3 militants, who arrived at the airport by taking a cab and took out rifles from their bags, started shooting at the security before entering the check-line. One of them was from Dagestan, one of them was from Kirghizia, the third was an Uzbek. There is no amount of surveillance or security measure which can prevent such attacks at a significant rate without turning into a totalitarian police state. So, a permanent solution must be socio-political. And crying out “stupid politicians” is just looking at the surface. Politicians are not monarchs, they climb up the ladder of influence by playing the game according to how it should be played. They are the products of their own system, not the other way around. That system and the global economy will not let go of the Middle-East with an isolationist retreat, they just won’t, no matter how much Ebonheart dreams of this. Leftist or rightist, none of us has a magic formula to resolve this irregularity overnight. And while there is no unified leftist or rightist position on this, I think a leftist perspective which addresses the heart of the issue as global economy policies and the drastic measures of inequality and turmoil it causes, is overwhelmingly more accurate than the short-and-long-term memory loss of the rightists, which try to analyse things primarily over culture clash. Yes, if you hold a microphone to a conservative Muslim immigrant and ask him about homosexuals, he’ll probably say they’re perverts and they should be punished. About 70 years ago (that’s just the life time of a person, no historical dynasties) an average Western citizen would do the exact same. How many of them genuinely gave a rat’s ass about it, is a very different question though. If you ask a Muslim on a poll, “should Sharia Law be applied”, it’s very probable that he will confirm “yes, yes, of course, it’s Allah’s will.” But how many of them will actually try to establish that when living under peaceful, democratic conditions? Not that the data on these polls are unimportant, they point to a real trouble, but they can shift from this to that quite fast, even within years, not decades.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 19, 2016 05:13 PM |
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Quote:
The danger is, that nowadays everything is a "terror attack", everything is Islam-based (as opposed to nutcase-based), and everything is to blame on THEM.
No, the danger is denying Islamic terror has something to do with Islam. Islamic terror is a world-wide problem. Islamic terrorists are not poor people who have been oppressed by straight white protestant males. They are people driven by a desire to please Allah. Some are poor, some are middle class, some are rich.
When they yell the phrase commonly translated "God is great" they are saying , "Allah is the only god and because you do not worship him now you die." Denying Islamic terror has a religious motivation is not just wrong, it is dangerous.
There is little hope for France or the rest of the West if it does not even understand the enemy it faces.
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Revelation
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2016 06:54 PM |
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Quote:
If you want to compare the theology of Islam and the theology of Christianity based on the texts as a scholar would, there is no doubt that Islam is more of a religion of battle in comparison.
Most of your post was a good one, however...
"More" does not cut the mustard Artu. You write as if it might be 6 texts for Christians and 10 for Muslims but that is very wrong. You ALWAYS have to bring in Christianity and run it along-side the issue at hand today and I wish you would/could stop.
Islam has however many verses versus how many in Christianity? Let's look at the N.T. The Soldiers come to arrest Christ in the Garden and Peter pulls a sword and attacks cutting an ear off one. Christ heals that ear. End of story!
The only other reference about being armed was/is how to travel. Bandits were a problem back then too if not more so and protecting oneself would not be criminal even in most minds today.
Now what DID Christ say? "If you live by the sword you die by the sword" "Love your enemies" and "Pray for you enemies" These commands were/are not the chosen-fuels for our world past or present, nor were they ever the choice of Nation's. Today, in recent years, Christians have been killed and driven out of the M.E. in many places and it is because of our "Faith's weakness" among communities when it comes to aggression, especially on offense.
Islam is a Political-Theocracy....period. What did Christ say? "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars" is ALL he said about Politics. Why did Judas betrayed Christ? Because he wanted a "Earthly King that wielded military power for revenge" and Christ was not about to deliver his wish. Christ's teachings are about our Spirits and not about power, money and gain in this world and that does not sit well with most people today.
Keep this discussion solely on Islam as that is the subject TODAY.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2016 07:25 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Then there are of course the criminal gangs (of Arabs and Africans) - now, SURE there are. For the same reason you have black gangs in the metropolitan ghettos of the US, like, in a simple equation:
U(nemploymen) + G(hettos) + I(diotic laws with regard to recreational activities) = C(rime) + V(iolence)
As long as there is the left side of the equation there will be the right side as well. And their religion isn't the reason, as much as skin color isn't the reason for it in the US.
US is a very bad example for western countries u see what happens after years of total capitalism. It's capitalism in end state where only a few ppl got nearly all of the available money. Ppl shot each other in the streets with waepons the rich ones sell them. The rich are seperated, they got their own universities and secured living districts while other rot on the streets. This separation built over years in working and believing... most ppl in US still think they could change their destiny if they just work and try hard neough... but this just an illusion. Maybe from time to time a Bill Gates or a Marc Zuckerberg raises out of them asses, but it's super rare and not everyone can do this. Anyways, in nature there isn't any constellation like this and the actual happenings will change very drastic if nothing changes soon. I think very soon a balance movement will happen, it always happens in nature when it's inbalanced.
Salamandre said:
Saying in 2016 that there is absolutely no problem with Islam world wide is sign of mental sclerosis or extreme blindness. Even if we can argue ad-aeternam about islam problems in the west -does it or doesn't trigger terrorism and we will never agree on that, why do you skip every time Islam's nature as it is expressed in Islamic countries, where it is supposed to shine and show its true face?
Only one answer... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R1fwrvPM4w
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2016 07:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:37, 19 Jul 2016.
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Quote:
"More" does not cut the mustard Artu. You write as if it might be 6 texts for Christians and 10 for Muslims but that is very wrong. You ALWAYS have to bring in Christianity and run it along-side the issue at hand today and I wish you would/could stop.
Actually, it is ALWAYS you who act like it is me who brings Christianity up, when the fact is, you post remarks in threads unrelated to religion, such as "atheists or agnostics may have a backdrop watching this" or "technology is this and that because man without God is capable of anything" and then give a strange reaction if you get a reply about it. In this specific case, there are combatant verses in the Old Testament (and not every Christian's interpretation of the OT versus NT is identical to yours), Christianity has an actual history of holy war declared by official theocracies(even if you do not consider it relevant to the scripture itself) and the the two religions were already being compared. There was more than one post about the Crusades and Elodin's replies to them BEFORE I posted anything. And that small part of my quite long post, which is only one sentence, was in relevance to that.
It would be nice if you realize that Christianity is not something important enough in my life, for me to get fixated on.
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This thread is pages long: 
