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| Thread: HoMM4 or HoMM1.5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Starknight
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 13, 2002 01:12 AM |
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HoMM4 or HoMM1.5?
There are some points I have read about the H4 that makes me wonder wehter this game is worth purchasing.
Since the review sites on the internet seem to have gone mad ( the reviewer never mentions anyhting about the games most interesting feautures and wehter changes meke it better or worse), I decided that this place is the best to ask about these changes and see how they have changed the gaming so that I can decide wether the game is worth buying or not, that is wether this is an improved game ( HoMM4) or just a sorry excuse to cash up on a once wonderful game by releasing a bug-ridden half finished product ( HoMM 1.5) 
1. No creature upgrades.
From my experience with heroes the creature upgrade used to be a VERY vital part of the strategy. Is this new concept better for the overall tactics in the game or does it actually make it worse? The last thing I want is a "tank-rush" TBS-game labeled as heroes.
2. No castle defence?!!
I have heard that they have abolished the castle siege mode. Is this correct? If not what do people mean when they claim this?
3. All heroes the same?
Is it true that all of the heores start as equall? If so doesnt this make the game boring due to lack of variety?
4. Heroes can actually fight now.
Is this a good or a bad change? what happens if the enemy focuses and kills of your hero first thing in the battle. Some spells could do huge amount of damage in HoMM3. Will the game not be just a case of which army gets to cast the first spell and vola your hero is dead so see you later?
5. no chaining of troops.
Will this not just waste a lot of game time, when you actually have to take 5 days instead of 1 now when transferring your armies for war. Heroes is a VERY time-consuming game as it is so will this just make it even more prolonged?
6. Graphics are a letdown?
Is it really right that the attck and retaliation animations have been abolished now?
7. How big do you think that the so called multiplayer patch will be?
If its larger than 10 MB I wont even consider buying the game untill some kind of exp. pack comes out with the patch on the CD-ROM.
There are just a few points that I wondered about. I will appreciate your oponions about these points and a final verdict wether you think that I would buy this game or wait for it to become a budget ( In UK at least the game is not doing very well at all since it didnt even hit th "new release/chart" shelves it has directly been placed on the " strategy shelve" along with games as old as red alert 2, Tropico etc.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 06:19 AM |
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It´s funny, while playing a boring hot-seat game with a friend this evening, I was intending to create a thread exactly like yours, only calling the game Heroes 2.5 instead.
I really tried very hard to like Heroes 4. "The new skill system is great and the rest I can get used to." But no, some improvements and a few interesting ideas don´t change anything about its very clearly being a downgrade of H3. Putting cream on a piece of poo doesn´t turn it into a cake. Now we know how great the old game is. Having 7 different levels of creatures to build and upgrade, with the interesting alternatives of spending gold to increase income or growth, or spending resources to raise mage guild.
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 06:47 AM |
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what i saw so far in mm9 is as bad as heroes 4, i cant express how much i hate that stupid 3do company... i hope they call bankrupcy soon and we get something likenew wordl computing back, im so sick of those loveless throwed out games that give the mm and heroes series such a bad name, i could throw up really
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 06:53 AM |
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snow1n' bastards - who needs afterall their ARMY MEN franchise....
they've stomped the best franchise evaaar! - the Heroes ONE! - blaaast! i'm goin' to die, but then again I'm dead already
Casts ressurecet on NWC... blast... no more mana.... left...
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 07:57 AM |
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Edited By: Frank on 13 Apr 2002
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The more I`m playing HOMM4, the more I come to realise that H4 may not be much of a game even in multiplayer mode.
- Taking the castle of your opponent means absolutely nothing if doing so you don`t kill your opp`s troops and heroes. Your army can`t be at 2 places at any given time (thx to the none linking) Your enemy might just as well take your ungarded and undefendable (no ballista) castle. Running one after another the whole game stealing opp`s castles isn`t my idea of strategy and fun.
- A bug in H4 allows only your side for picking up a tomb stone of your deceised heroes to repatriate and ressurect thy. Your opponent whom killed your hero can only sit on the tomb and not destroy it. Of course you gain all of your opp`s artefacts but can you afford to stay on the tomb so that your opponent can never get his main hero back?
- Can someone explain to me how on in the world you can bring your opponent to conceed on a map in which you can go in all directions? I mean if there is no narrow corridor between your opponent and yourself how will you ever catch your enemy`s hero? The fog of war won`t help you catch your opp for he will sooner or later learn the tactics to prevent the fog from being a problem 
So basicly, H4 is a single player game (even in multiplayer mode) for you will only have 1 interaction with your opponent, one main fight whom will decide the game. The whole game you`ll be fighting random monsters and not your opponent (!) That`s pretty single player mode to me. The only difference is that your opponent will not be as dumb as the computer in the main fight.
- Stealth: cool idea in theory. Practicly the grandmaster of stealth may make it so the game never ends.
And so even without the million crapy bugs this game contains: http://heroes.mycomport.com/maphaven/heroes4/bugs.html
I doubt that playing hours and hours of running after your opp while bring you any satisfaction. I hope to be wrong.
- Frank
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 08:16 AM |
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For the whiners
As valid as some peoples' criticisms may be about certain aspects of HoMM4, I'm sick of hearing about how it's a downgrade from HoMM3 or it's just not the same game anymore. It's the same basic game - you develop heroes, collect resources, buy armies, and attack your neighbors. The only real difference is that many old strategies won't work as well.
Regarding Starknight's points:
1. No creature upgrades. I don't find that this takes anything away from the game. Upgrades were somewhat of a differentiator between those who could get the right resources and those who couldn't, but weren't really that indicative of how well you could play the game. Once you got all of your creatures upgraded, the unupgraded creatures were rarely used. Really, how different was a Minotaur from a Minotaur King, or a Basilisk from a Greater Basilisk? Now all creatures have a special ability of some sort and this makes them a lot more fun to decide between.
2. No Castle defense. I can agree with peoples' first impressions of this, but in reality this levels the playing field for the attacker. With no chaining, the defender now has an advantage in that he will always be able to provide troops for his castle by the time an attacker gets to it. In all likelihood the defender will be able to outnumber his attacker. What this lack of Castle defense does is make it more like an open field battle with a slight favor for the defender. In my opinion, this is likely going to encourage people to be more agressive since sitting in your castle will not give you as much as an advantage as it would in HoMM3 (not that sitting in your castle is a good strategy in the first place).
3. All heroes the same. Yes they all start the same, but they can quickly develop into well differentiated heroes, especially with the different skill structures. Start with two Archers and within a few levels one could become a Beastmaster while the other may become an Assassin. A few more levels and the right skills and that Assassin could even become a Dark Priest, while the Beastmaster might end up as a Guildmaster. This to me is a lot more unique than having one hero start with Animate Dead while another starts with Meteor Shower. I mean really, how much Different was Solmyr from any other wizard once you got Chain Lightning in your guild?
4. Heroes fighting is a good thing. Yes they can die easily early on, but there are a number of ways to stop this. At higher levels and with the right skills they make a significant difference in battle - especially when you have two heroes that complement each other (like a Tactics GM with a Magic GM). Even when they die you can still win the battle (so you lose out on some experience - this will likely only happen against another human). And having heroes fighting is like having several different types of additional monsters in the game.
5. No chaining of troops. As much as I took advantage of chaining in HoMM3, from a boredom (and turn length) standpoint I won't miss this. If you need to constantly reinforce your main army you can always send the monsters individually along the map. What this also means is that defenders will have at least some additional time to counter any upcoming attack. But yes, this will make games longer.
6. I have mixed feelings about the graphics, but they're growing on me the same way any change in the look of a game grows on you.
7. The patch better be big in so far as there better be some semblance of a random map generator included with the MP.
As to whether anyone should get the game now or wait, who can really answer that for you? I'm glad I got the game when it came out.
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 09:15 AM |
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sorry Re. From what you are telling us we can only conclude that HOMM4 is a very simplistic game much closer to dice game than from HOMM3. Too soon to predict it`s success. We`ll have to wait and see.
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 09:58 AM |
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simplisitic?
from everything RE mentioned you come to the conclusion that the game is simplistic and akin to a game of dice ?
you complain about how all the new features will lengthen play and force players to make many more HARD choices as to what they will do in the game or not do?
the fact that heroe's are no longer just stat enhancers but can also take an active role or lose there active role to help there side in a battle?
not just battle though, they can also help from a resource/cash/troops angle now as well?
so now that an art such as the earthbook or heavenly hat can no longer be a game decider?
now heroe's are what we make of them by our own descisions not the luck of the draw anymore?
in homm 4 i can even determine the portal i go thru instead of riding the gates as in homm 3 till my turns up!
NOW!? the game is become a simple dice game when compared to homm 3?
pleases explain to the rest o us a little further how this version is more chance oriented than the last one?
you're going to try to tell me that getting crag hack to start with on most homm3 maps wasn't better than say piquedram?
oh yeah. i forgot, a truly great homm player should be able to win with any hero. but in the end any truly great homm 3 player would take hack versus pique. or he wouldn't be a great player!! that and the HH or earth book ya pulled from the water or the 5 blck topia as compared to the 2 yer op got. now these are rolling dice!!
i for one am lookin forward to a few online games where i get wooped by someone who beats me because they played better, not because there boat guy scored better!
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 10:17 AM |
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i disagree big time with reanimators and mkls posts, yes hack was good, but every excellent game has good and bad stuff in it that can decide games, thats the beauty of it, nothing better than beating up a hack...if all heroes the same it sux
and as you say mkl, boat guy scores, you play hg - you get a luck game, it that simple, thats also the beauty of it for many peeps.
and for the now we decide how we build our heroes, soon everyone will find out whats best for a hero and than it will be the same toss again and again...
h4 so far is a huge downgrade to h3, less monsters, boring heroes, no chains,simple town building (i only saw a city hall for money yet, and it can be built day1...), a big disappointment for me, if i want to play a long-breath single player game i dont play homm, i play some role-game like baldurs gate.
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted April 13, 2002 10:36 AM |
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Greetings
I will join frank in the saying that Homm4 is much more off a dice game!
There is a lot off gamewinning spellcombos, most then having gamewinning counters (steal enchantment as exsample). The outcome if you have the spells or not in your first castle is diceluck!! Plainsimple
Some special abilitys is so overpowered like vampires that the main thing to counter it is nonliving creatures. If you have that or another just as important creature feature its plainsimple diceluck!!
an exsample I had mentioned in the Land of axeoth forum is the outcome if you face preserve against asylum!
Level 4 creatures is much more important than all others.
But Blacks beats Faries nearly without losses. Faires beats Hydras equal easy. Phoenix beats blacks (blacks does firedamage). And Hydra have a fair chance of being more worth against phoinix.
So puting preserve and asylum level 4 up against each others show them to be pretty balanced. Its just not a balance adding quality to the game because its plain simple diceluck who is going to have the advantage against each other!! This balancing princip 3D0 have called rock sissor paper in some intervieuws. And they have used it a lot
But this princip adding randomness in the games balance is NOT giving an increase in strategy quality off the game! Not at all.
With Regards
jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 10:44 AM |
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Edited By: Frank on 13 Apr 2002
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hmmm from where do I start? hehe HOMM3 is so complex. Sure there was HH and there was earth tome and there was other things. I`ve lost to those like everyone else. But sometime I managed to win against those as well. See, in HOMM3 there are an infinite number of ways to win a game. Infinite. I remember a game in which I had everything. Alamar with soj in water + HH + rampart + etc... My stats were twice as good except one. My defence. My opponent had hack with castle and humongeous attack. I lost to his tactic expert and mass haste skills.
In HOMM3 anything could make the difference.
- specialist hero
- spells (tp, dd, ch.l., res, teleport, even summon boat !!!)
- fastest creature of the game (I love the serpent fly ! only arch A and D, Go, Gh and B dragon.) think of the cost versus speed...
- main hero differential in levels compared to his opp`s
- artefacts (tomes, shackles, recanters, orbs, pendant of negativity, cape of velocity, golden bow,...) each of those artefacts were powerfull enough to turn the game around.
- outbuild (2 castles of the same type)
- secondary skills (dipo, necro, logistic, leadership, tactic...)
What I am trying to say is that all of you who thought that you had lost the game because your opponent got alamar. Well you were wrong. You were too lousy to think of a way to conter it.  The same goes for everything I`ve mentionned above. A game that allow you such diversity is just great.
Why am I not redicovering that in H4? Let me just say that I`ve played over 100 hours of H4 already. First, the comp sure wasn`t helping me to appreciate the strategy of H4. Whatever the map, whatever the starting difficulty, the comp would either die before I reach it to the hands of neutral monsters... (sigh) or wouldn`t be a challenge either ways. Now for multiplayer games. If both players are aware that the gold income is still very important, then the only way to build an advantage to yourself is via XPs.
Heroes in H4 are terribly limited. Don`t tell me that you have that much of a choice ! You have only 2 heroes to start with and each of them can almost only evolve in what they were meant to do. You don't have time to be grandmaster in 4 disciplines !!! Reach only 1 and you have attain your goal. So if you start with Order, you`ll have order spells and that`s it. If you add to your group a tactician hero you`ll have tactician and its derivative and that`s it. No surprises anymore. We will all know by heart sooner or later that when you play against an order town, your opp will end up having this and that spell. In H3 you never knew until a showdown if your opp was going to caste one of them nasty mass spells like haste, slow, prayer, beserk,... That was very cool. Now it`s hopeless. Once a order hero always a order hero. I`m playing a campaing in which I have finally reached the point where I can cast good spells in both nature and life spells. That`s 40 hours into that campaing with 125 000 xps. If you want that for your multiplayer game you better be more patient than I am.
Sorry for the lenght of the text...
- Frank
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted April 13, 2002 11:41 AM |
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Seems to me like only a couple of people played the game. The rest are just trolling.
-Pure Chaos
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 12:09 PM |
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i havent played h4 yet but sounds like games gonna be long....
Motorschaaf
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted April 13, 2002 12:25 PM |
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Well, I don't count the hours, but I've completed the Lysander campaign and played on various maps (not completed, cause that is, thanks to 3DO's impeccable bug-fixing, impossible), and the feeling you're left with is not all good.
The game lacks a certain something, a drive, a sass (is that a word? Sounds nice), that little extra that HOMMII, for instance, had in spades (is that the term? Again, sounds right to me).
Some things that bother me:
The heroes are completely generic, and in single scenario play, they don't even have their own name and biography. In the map editor, they all have their own names and bio's. But while playing scenarios, the names and biographies have been the same while scrolling through death, order and chaos heroes.
Generic biographies too, like:
"The first thing ****** remembers, is waking up beneath a blue sky. But it was supposed to be red! Now he's trying to find his way back to his own world"
"*****'s life may be one of battle and travel, but what he enjoy the most is carving wooden figurines" (what kind of snow hero are we talking about here? Emil i Lønneberget?)
and crap like that.
I would have thought it a bug, had it not been for the fact that the biographies are non-descriptive, and are different from the ones found in the map editor.
I wish they would have specialties as well, but at least their own name and bio!
So I have to force myself to play more heroes 4, to see if it grows on me, but so far; nothing.
I'm not particularly fond of certain creatures or heroes, the game is impersonal and generic, it doesn't evoke any feelings within (mooshy, mooshy).
With heroes 2 & 3, you had to drag me away from the PC. That is no longer the case. I hope AoW2 can remedy my longing for good TBS (I hope they'll keep that classic turn option).
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted April 13, 2002 01:06 PM |
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I really don't understand why you keep on saying that the game is worse than HOMM3. This is what I think:
1. No creature upgrades.
The creature upgrades only let you think there are more creatures, but that feeling is false. Most of the time there wasn't a significant difference (except genies then, they turn from female to male... weird), what is the difference between dendroid soldiers and guards?
2. No castle defence?!!
what do you mean no castle defence? Were the turrets castle defence??? I'm sorry to tell you but those turrets didn't do anything good I'm my opinion. I would even say that the towns now are better defended than before. In homm three fliers could fly over your castle's wall in one turn and attacking one stack, now flyers need two turns, and sometimes three, giving you more time to kill them. The three towers add a bonus to the stats of those who stand on them, however, standing on the towers makes them vurnerable to shooters and magic. A tough choice
3. All heroes the same?
And that is fine by me, how many times haven't you heard that certain heroes are banned from tournaments, because they are unbalancing? Well that's over now. however I do think you shouldn't be able to change the heroes name, and the biografies could be a lil' better, but will you try to write hundreds of biografies that are distinct and different of eachother?!
I'll end here, since I got to get going now, I'll continue this some time later.
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 01:30 PM |
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Quote:
1. No creature upgrades.
The creature upgrades only let you think there are more creatures, but that feeling is false. Most of the time there wasn't a significant difference (except genies then, they turn from female to male... weird), what is the difference between dendroid soldiers and guards?
quote]
OMG. If the change of an unit`s sex has more relevance to for you to HOMM3 than +10 hp & +1 speed for a unit`s upgrade... it`s not only that ugrade brought more diversity to the game, it`s also a question of more complexity in the strategy. Why would anyone prefer to build the ugrade of a serpent fly on day 7 rather than another monster dwelling? That may eludes you and so I understand why you prefer no upgrades
I won`t comment your other points for I feel you dindn`t play much HOMM3 and so it`s not your fault...
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 13, 2002 01:33 PM |
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Don Gio really put his finger on it.
The game lacks personality and addictiveness.
I remember the H2 strategy guide said H2 was basically 'simple to play but impossible to master'.
H3 was more of the same.
But h4 lacks these qualities.
I'm the same way. I keep playing and playing and nothing so far.
Asylum and Academy are way too strong and Stronghold ironically is way too weak.
I am only a newbie but it seems like this game has some issues and I do not think a patch can fix them all.
-Mocara
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 03:47 PM |
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We can all blame 3do for releasing a half finished product. remember how they were late for going gold? they prolly shoulda held off... I think h4 has potential to be good, and a patch should help, because lets face it, when heroes 3 came out, it had many gameplay issues, and most of us are just remembering the most recent version of h3 when comparing the 2.
I still wont make my official judgement (means i still give it hope of being great) on the game until I see how 3do handles the gameplay/multiplayer patch. currently, I think the game has lots of strategy, just different kinds compared to h3.
On a side note, Upgrading creatures I always hated. takin them back to the town, etc.. altho I can think of ways to fix that, not like itd matter tho
But I still say, see how 3do does with the patch..if they screw that up then heroes 4 prolly done with unless a year from now they redeem themselves with a nice expansion.
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I will not lose.
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 05:12 PM |
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Quote:
On a side note, Upgrading creatures I always hated. takin them back to the town, etc.. altho I can think of ways to fix that, not like itd matter tho
hehehe JB... you didn`t hate it. At least I hope you didn`t because in H4 you`ll be takin your main hero back to your town for monsters (not even upgraded ones ) the WHOLE game !
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted April 13, 2002 07:27 PM |
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I got my copy a few days later than you guys did so I'm kind of behind.
But....
I can live with the no-chaining, generic hero, and no creature upgrades... if I have to.
I can play this in Multiplayer... if I have to. It would be much better if they lost the "Fog of War" in Multi.... A running stealth hero will be hard to catch if he has lost the game but refuses to lose some points.
Without the patch for Multiplayer the game is good for about 30 days and then the trash can.
But... In my elite-edition box I got a manual, CD-ROM and a reference sheet. I'm still looking but I cant seem to find the soul for this game. Is it coming in the patch?
And... I'm a little worried about getting the patch now.
In "Crocodile Dundee" Paul Hogan said; "Sure, you can eat it... but it tastes like sh!t".
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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