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| Thread: The future of Mountain Fortress and Sanctuary | |
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted February 20, 2017 12:11 PM |
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The future of Mountain Fortress and Sanctuary
I doubt that there is much doubt in that we should scrap Ashan as soon as possible, either in favor of returning to the old setting or for a new one. I for one embraces a new setting for a fresh start and not repeating the mistakes of either of the previous settings. Though I don't believe we should just abandon everything from Ashan. After all, it did give us some quite memorable heroes, creatures, and last but not least, entire factions. And it is the latter is which to discuss.
If we look at the two factions introduced in Ashan, the mountain Fortress and Sanctuary, they are as racial as they get. They are literally two factions based of a pair of units from the older games, and everything considered they worked nicely. Though they would necessarily work as well in a setting focused on thematic factions. As such, I will give my short version of each of them.
The mountain Fortress. Having an entire faction just of dwarfs, in a style awfully similar to Warhammer dwarfs, with the added bonus of a single dragon creature wasn't their best idea, but at least is wasn't as bad as having dwarfs being no bigger than a single creature and a handful of heroes. At least they tired to tone down the dwarfs in Heroes 7, to debatable success. However, in the future and with a new setting I believe the faction needs a new style and possibly a new name too, depending if we also reintroduce the swamp Fortress.
My suggestion for a new mountain Fortress is build around the theme of vikings and people inhabiting the northern realms. Central in the faction is the alliance between the hardy northfolk, humans native to this area, and the stunted and skilled dwarfs. The faction lies in the grey area between neutral and good, and mainly contains creatures native to such harsh mountain environments (wolves, bear, possibly troll and even a yeti), together with a few dwarven and human units (throwing axeman, shieldmaiden, defender, runepriest). And of course Rune magic like in Heroes V would be ideal as the faction skill. Depending on the units the faction could either be a classic tank faction or a mixed tank/offensive faction.
Sanctuary. It's still my favorite and a faction I more than anything wants to survive, rather than ending up in the same fate as the Swamp Fortress (which we also needs to bring back). It have brought with it themes and units no other faction really could have done, and it would be a shame to let it just to waste. That said, I'm fully supportive of dropping the far eastern theme for the idea of a more ocean themed Sanctuary.
Simply, my suggestion for the new version is a faction based of the "Merfolk", a collective term describing several oceandvelling races such as the Naga, Mermaids, Sharkmen, and more. Though most of their kingdoms lies beneath the sea, they have many colonies on the land. Cuturally it could still take it's inspiration from the far east, but it would not be as big of a focus as before. It would remain in the "good" end of the scale. All of the units are based of aquatic creatures, from classic seamonsters to the aforementioned aquatic races. Faction skill is more tricky, but could be rooting in a sort of water magic. Could be a faction rich on spellcaster and interesting abilities, as something in between Academy and Swamp Fortress.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 20, 2017 12:16 PM |
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Mediczero said:
Though I don't believe we should just abandon everything from Ashan. After all, it did give us some quite memorable heroes, creatures, and last but not least, entire factions. And it is the latter is which to discuss.
Isabel? 
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted February 20, 2017 12:24 PM |
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Maybe not her. Raelag would be a better call.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 20, 2017 01:00 PM |
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Mediczero said:
Though I don't believe we should just abandon everything from Ashan.
well I sure do lol
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 20, 2017 01:38 PM |
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Nicely written Mediczero
After all the years of HoMM and the diversity of fans and their personal faction favorites? I wish they'd FINALLY think BIG and make "at least" a dozen factions for HoMM...right out of the gate. I've never cared much about the world setting and the lore itself because I've never seen it as important when playing the game. I want only a little story-line and a lot quality-game. People like myself, don't care about endless reams of story, so if only 1 thing (by budget) remains, let it be a well thought-out and diversified game - that is not bug-ridden and also dispensed like PEZ.
Instead to save money, games today for SP are made in 1 scripted Campaign and gone is the idea that, just maybe, if a great game where actually created, say a true-successor complete with a great Editor?, the Community could get to work and make something that would be far better than any small crew sitting around looking at yet one more invented world saying "I am <whatever the hell>"
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 20, 2017 02:52 PM |
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@Marrkur
The setting is more than the story. I am far less knowledgeable on the lore than people like Verriker or Avonu but I dislike Ashan for more than campaigns. It's the general feel and aura, the visuals, the creatures, etc.
I agree if a real HOMM had to see the day in the future, it should have at least same amount of factions than h3 for vanilla. As conservative as I am, I wouldn't mind entirely new or redone factions if it's done well. In fact, I'd welcome it. When I play VCMI I use none of the original towns (and the new ones are not all that great, mainly Forge, Abyss and Bastion I really like).
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 20, 2017 05:44 PM |
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Galaad said:
@Marrkur
The setting is more than the story. I am far less knowledgeable on the lore than people like Verriker or Avonu but I dislike Ashan for more than campaigns. It's the general feel and aura, the visuals, the creatures, etc.
I agree if a real HOMM had to see the day in the future, it should have at least same amount of factions than h3 for vanilla. As conservative as I am, I wouldn't mind entirely new or redone factions if it's done well. In fact, I'd welcome it. When I play VCMI I use none of the original towns (and the new ones are not all that great, mainly Forge, Abyss and Bastion I really like).
I can understand the pov perfectly. However, on one point; after all the years of HoMM? I would really like having a dozen factions so Random was actually more...random.
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"Do your own research"
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Cortes
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 20, 2017 08:08 PM |
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Oh yes, please, let's keep them!
That said, what about making the dwarfs the technological advanced faction? Still nordic but with guns and golems? (Academy could go all the way persian mythology or similiar stuff)
About Sanctuary, I liked the combination of water and far eastern theme.
But rather having them again in some way, instead of not at all.
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My idea for necropolis
Fortress with guns and cannons
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 20, 2017 08:48 PM |
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You don't really need Ashan if you want to create a Norse Myth or Water based with Japanese folklore towns though, in fact if you entirely rule out Ashan from the equation you'll get something better, IMO
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted February 20, 2017 09:08 PM |
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Edited by AnkVaati at 21:13, 20 Feb 2017.
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verriker said:
Mediczero said:
Though I don't believe we should just abandon everything from Ashan.
well I sure do lol
Getting back the Swamp/Lizard faction, without Warcraft Nagas or Erwin speaking fake-Japanese, would indeed be a nice change. Kinda disappointed that they where gone in H4, although NWC was going to bring them back with (real) H5, fused with the dragons, something that could have been really cool. The idea of having a 'reptilian'/'draconian' faction like that could potentially save us from the gazillions of unimaginative dragon types and creatures for every town, which were a problem already back in H3 but really went full snow with Erwin and Spider-Dragon Goddess and the rest.
As for the story, we can imagine how the Tatalians just ended up on Axeoth's unexplored continent of Aalondor, where some fans think that the real H5 were supposed to have taken place.
Regarding the dwarf faction of Warcraft Heroes 5-7 it should just be tossed into the fire be reintegrated into a proper Nature/Fairy faction.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 20, 2017 09:11 PM |
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Well said sir, well said.
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted February 20, 2017 10:00 PM |
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AnkVaati said:
Getting back the Swamp/Lizard faction, without Warcraft Nagas or Erwin speaking fake-Japanese, would indeed be a nice change. Kinda disappointed that they where gone in H4, although NWC was going to bring them back with (real) H5, fused with the dragons, something that could have been really cool. The idea of having a 'reptilian'/'draconian' faction like that could potentially save us from the gazillions of unimaginative dragon types and creatures for every town, which were a problem already back in H3 but really went full snow with Erwin and Spider-Dragon Goddess and the rest.
As for the story, we can imagine how the Tatalians just ended up on Axeoth's unexplored continent of Aalondor, where some fans think that the real H5 were supposed to have taken place.
Regarding the dwarf faction of Warcraft Heroes 5-7 it should just be tossed into the fire be reintegrated into a proper Nature/Fairy faction.
Matter of fact is that the "Real" H5 was left merely as a wet fantasy for the oldschool heroes fans. It died and we got H5, which, despite Ashan, isn't a bad game. Though I'll have to agree with the Draconic swamp fortress and the Erwin stuidity, even I got enough of that.
About the Dwarfs, absolutely not. Really, what argument is there for doing this other than "That was how they did it in H1-H3"? I'm curious. Because I don't see any other argument for dropping the entire concept, a fairly good concept going with the viking idea rather than going full dwarf mind you. I mean, is there anything bad about having more factions? And would that outweigh the good?
Also, H5 ripped off Warhammer, not Warcraft. It ripped of Warhammer so bad. But then again, so did Warcraft.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2017 05:39 AM |
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Mediczero said:
Maybe not her. Raelag would be a better call.
I'd say Kiril as well, but I've always been a sucker for the noble demon edgelord types.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 28, 2017 06:50 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:00, 28 Mar 2017.
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Mediczero said:
My suggestion for a new mountain Fortress is build around the theme of vikings and people inhabiting the northern realms. Central in the faction is the alliance between the hardy northfolk, humans native to this area, and the stunted and skilled dwarfs. The faction lies in the grey area between neutral and good, and mainly contains creatures native to such harsh mountain environments (wolves, bear, possibly troll and even a yeti), together with a few dwarven and human units (throwing axeman, shieldmaiden, defender, runepriest). And of course Rune magic like in Heroes V would be ideal as the faction skill. Depending on the units the faction could either be a classic tank faction or a mixed tank/offensive faction.
An interesting idea, but I do feel you're missing an opportunity. Remember, in Norse myth, it was the dwarves who created Odin's spear, Freya's ship, Gullinbursti and thor's Hammer, so you could go so far as to include a golem of some sort, perhaps in the shape of a dragon or something. Yeah, I know that might conflict with Academy, but stuff it, those guys have enough options, beast-men, genies, magical beings, etc. I think they can do without a dragon golem.
Mediczero said:
About the Dwarfs, absolutely not. Really, what argument is there for doing this other than "That was how they did it in H1-H3"? I'm curious. Because I don't see any other argument for dropping the entire concept, a fairly good concept going with the viking idea rather than going full dwarf mind you. I mean, is there anything bad about having more factions? And would that outweigh the good?
Agreed. Of all the concepts I've ever been able to come up with for dwarves, tree-hugging, second-rate elves has never once entered my mind as being appropriate.
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted March 28, 2017 07:49 AM |
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MattII said:
An interesting idea, but I do feel you're missing an opportunity. Remember, in Norse myth, it was the dwarves who created Odin's spear, Freya's ship, Gullinbursti and thor's Hammer, so you could go so far as to include a golem of some sort, perhaps in the shape of a dragon or something. Yeah, I know that might conflict with Academy, but stuff it, those guys have enough options, beast-men, genies, magical beings, etc. I think they can do without a dragon golem.
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Agreed. Of all the concepts I've ever been able to come up with for dwarves, tree-hugging, second-rate elves has never once entered my mind as being appropriate.
I do see where you are coming from with the dragon golem idea, but I don't think it fits. If it was a pure dwarven faction, maybe, but considering it's more of a dwarf/viking faction. And I also think it would be better to give them a special building that allows them to forge relics if we were to try and include that element of the faction. They did create more relics than creatures after all.
Also, glad you agree about the nature dwarfs, it only really made slightly sense in H1/H2
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