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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 01:35 PM |
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The bank meta and JC has been known/played for years, but many people, me included (an old time MP player) dislike it, and has largely contributed to me quitting online many years ago.
Personally, I think the game would be a lot more fun without "free units" and having the same angel/cyclop/wyvern/titan army in every game you actually play. It would bring back the unique flavor of towns beyond what their powerstack of choice brings to the combat and how good their heroes are.
I personally will not return to online until bank meta is gone, and due to its popularity it will most likely never be gone since people would have to re-learn this game from scratch and that would be too big of a change to this over 2 decades long history of HOMM3.
Also, the game cannot be made longer for your average online match, because people's attention span isn't long enough, so the meta will, if anything, focus even harder on banks rather than removing those from the equation. Understandable, but not something I enjoy.
Fortunately, there are enough brilliant single player maps to enjoy without being forced into the bank meta. Where building even Gold Dragons is actually a good idea.
What I am heavily interested in is the "rebalance" HOTA team is intending to do regarding skills and schools of magic, but there's like 0 info on when or how is it going to be done.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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shev441
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 02:09 PM |
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Edited by shev441 at 14:14, 13 Dec 2020.
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Well even in bank meta games take from 3/4h even up to 10 h so I don't know if using term "attention span" is wise.
You can try different templates - mt_MP is one that was created 1 year ago and I really enjoy it. It's mirror map, size M and It's goal is to resamble classic Heroes 3 gamestyle. You have only few banks, you need to use town's army a lot. Also there are not that much big Breaks so It's not that necessary to have earth magic
as in JC. Some most OP heroes and artifacts are also disabled. Total game time is usually from 2 - 5 hours.
Another link from Polish Championships. Commentary is in Polish, but you can see how MT_MP plays out.
I'm also interested in upcomming changes. Hope that we gonna see more balance in 1.7, not "only" Factory.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted December 13, 2020 02:46 PM |
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shev441 said:
I'm also interested in upcomming changes. Hope that we gonna see more balance in 1.7, not "only" Factory.
It was already stated that 1.7 is mainly about the factory and not about magic or skill rework. But idk, this information is already some months old, things might have changed.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 03:31 PM |
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I'm simply wondering how much will be actually changed. HotA team could either use a soft approach (tweak the numbers, ie. Sorcery from 15% on Expert to 30% would change a lot for the skill), or a full rework approach ie. making things like Eagle Eye work entirely different than they do right now. Or both.
Magic rework can be done in many ways too ie.:
- moving some spells around to make some schools more viable (for example moving Resurrection to Water - ouch...),
- adding new spells (a proper tier5 for water magic? Deep freeze from HoMM5 would be an interesting pick...).
- just nerfing and buffing (rather boring, but can get the job done).
IDK if HotA crew reads this after Docent is no longer with us, though...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 04:03 PM |
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Doomforge said:
What I am heavily interested in is the "rebalance" HOTA team is intending to do regarding skills and schools of magic, but there's like 0 info on when or how is it going to be done.
Only thing I know regarding the skills is that Docent actually listed the skills that would get some changes: Pathfinding, Luck, Artillery Learning and Sorcery would be the ones that get some minor adjustments, while Ballistics, Eagle Eye and First Aid would get bigger changes.
When it comes to magic, I got no info, unfortunately. Ofc, one could make some assumptions based on the Slow change, which imo was pretty small adjustment, so maybe the thinking? Personally, I wouldn't be too afraid to see some "dramatic" choices in order to shake up some things. If adding new spells to the game ends up being possible in Hota enviroment, that would also be quite innovative new way of making the non-earth schools to be more viable first picks when it comes to magic school. (for those who don't know, in MP you only really want to see Earth, the Air is way less of a priority and pretty much always skipped in the early levels.)
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted December 13, 2020 04:47 PM |
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At least replace Disguise with a spell that actually does something and is fair.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 13, 2020 04:50 PM |
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Guys, I'm almost 100% sure there won't be spell moving. It would be a crazy thing to do. And it's not like Water Magic and Fire Magic actually suck themselves, just that more convenient spells like Haste, Slow can be used since day 1 and spells like the OP Implo, DD, Fly and TP are part of the Earth and Air schools' end game; in a battle, Water Magic with good spells can be just as good as pretty much any other magic school. Same goes for Fire Magic, which can give you the upper hand if you got mass Berserk; having Earth magic too would still be preferable though, but I don't really see an issue in that; otherwise the game would need to be butchered in the spells department to make Earth balanced. Oh, and I think why Resurrection is Earth was explained somewhere around here, there also was lore basis for that afaik.
I'm also pretty sure HotA could have added spells for years, or pretty much anything tbh.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 05:17 PM |
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There's no need to butcher Earth. it's basically a well-done school.
You just need to soup up others to be up to par.
But HotA team doesn't shy away from nerfs, sometimes significant ones (Intelligence getting literally halved, Diplomacy nerfed from Top tier skill to middle-of-the-pack one at best), so I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed the key Earth spells.
Fire magic has Curse, which is one of the best spells in bank meta (you know it brings griffins to 2 damage down from 3-6 and serpent fly to exactly 1 damage down from 2-5, right?) and the gamechanging AoE Berserk, if 1-2 spells were souped up it would be as good as Air, which is perfectly usable. A buff to Sacrifice would be also welcome, it's garbage.
It's Water magic that needs buffs, actually. No proper tier 5 spell, sme great good buffs but that's it, it's the least complete school and it's pretty worthless to pick.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted December 13, 2020 05:33 PM |
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Sacrifice is not garbage, it's actually a very powerful spell, especially with Fire Magic. But usually you would prefer Resurrection, as that is often enough and you don't have to Sacrifice anything.
Water Magic is pretty good, not as good as Earth and Air of course, but with spells like TP, DD and Fly there is no competition really.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 13, 2020 07:05 PM |
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Clone, Prayer, Bless....
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 07:14 PM |
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Doomforge said:
Fire magic has Curse, which is one of the best spells in bank meta (you know it brings griffins to 2 damage down from 3-6 and serpent fly to exactly 1 damage down from 2-5, right?) and the gamechanging AoE Berserk, if 1-2 spells were souped up it would be as good as Air, which is perfectly usable. A buff to Sacrifice would be also welcome, it's garbage.
It's Water magic that needs buffs, actually. No proper tier 5 spell, sme great good buffs but that's it, it's the least complete school and it's pretty worthless to pick.
This is so true, Fire is actually way better at giving you tempo in the game than Water is. I still think Fire magic skill could use some kind of boost, as you really only want it for mass Curse and Berserk. I think solo play water is kinda better as games drag longer, so something like Clone can become quite decent, also in water maps obviously water magic is pretty good.
Simple ways to buff these spells would be to increase damage on Frost ring, Fireball and Inferno. Fire shield could become mass spell. Slayer could become mass spell that scales by increasing attack, and not with creature type, that's desing has never made any sense to me. And then, high level water magic could totally be something we need, maybe get rid something like Magic Mirror in order to introduce the new spell? Maybe an AOE Blizzard that deals damage and slows?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 13, 2020 07:26 PM |
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A Tier 5 AOE spell would be interesting since there is no such spell in the game and it would certainly make Water more appealing, because it's quite one dimensional.
Fire & Water will forever suffer though due to lame mobility spells. Perhaps Town Portal could be decoupled from Earth magic and made universal (just like Magic Arrow) to fix this...
There's not much effort needed to make Schools more interesting, tbh. No need for catastrophic nerfs, there are just a couple things that would make some of them more appealing.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 13, 2020 07:54 PM |
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Yes, but changing a spell's school could literally break hundreds of maps, etc.
There isn't a precedent of such a major change.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted December 13, 2020 11:14 PM |
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I like DD at Fire Magic, but only once per day.
Don't know about changing school of TP, but it could use some nerfs, at least in movement cost, so you can't spam it 10 times a day.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted December 14, 2020 10:19 AM |
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Changes in Town Portal and DD wont break, if they have same rules.
Universal Town Portal and Dimension Door it wont hurt, if your main hero doesnt own Earth or Air on XL+ maps.
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Orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted December 14, 2020 01:35 PM |
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Seeing no advancement from HotA team i decided to rework magic on my own and i must say it was quite satisfactory . Here are some changes i want to mention:  slow & shield costs 1 more mana, while bloodlust requires one less. Also boosted cure.
blind is now tier 3 spell while landmine was downgraded
Slayer and Fire Shield downgraded while boosted( at expert level former inflicts 40% dmg while the latter increases attack by 12
Anti-Magic,Fly and Sacrifice now 4th lvl spell while resurrection was transfered to Water school( i assume both water and earth are concerned when it comes to res and thats why now at expert lvl both purple and green are seen on screen). TBH, Any excuse would be enough for me to make this transfer reality )
Berserk & TP now lvl 5th spell. At expert lvl, Magic Mirror grants 60% success(18 mana ), you summon sp*5 water ellies with 24 mana and implo inflicts 100*sp dmg with 30 mana. Lastly, visions is no longer a water spell.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 14, 2020 04:16 PM |
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted December 14, 2020 05:30 PM |
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But..
@bank meta, JC
When pro players use his/her only 6-7lvl troops. I think a map realizes a plan much easier. So many leaders/pieces aren't a very good in war strategics. Computer uses them.
@to increase damage on Frost ring
When an old spell scheme, from the weakest to strong. You can do damaging effect from 1lvl to 5lvl in a math formula. So you can't incerease more damage.
@expert Sorcery 30%
When artifact gives +50%, it does in total 80% is much stronger than might. Think about Death Ripple.
@nerfed Diplomacy
When HotA tried to less troops like H4 level. Remember Diplomacy vs Necromancy, example of 1000 Liches vs in about 100 Titans. Now's lesser number.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 14, 2020 05:33 PM |
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Diplomacy nerf is just a few bonus settings compared to og game, those can always be brought back to og game defaults.
Dunno what exactly you meant with JC though.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted December 14, 2020 05:45 PM |
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Aha
JC? I never played but I've seen people played their style. The style is always same.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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