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MCB
Hired Hero
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posted March 21, 2017 12:01 PM |
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Learning spells from creatures is a great idea. Maybe if you can learn spells if your hero see another hero in the map use town portal etc, can be good.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2017 06:39 PM |
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Nah, if it was for me... "Eagle Eyes" stays a strict PvP skill
I could imagine actual effect with some buffs.
-100% chance to learn any spell enemy uses in battle
-(5%,10%,15%) chance to learn any spell enemy uses on map (Earth- Air-View, DD, Fly, Summon boat)
-Chance to reflect any spell (15%,25%,40%) (see "Magic Mirror" spell)
I would also combine skills like they've done in HoMM4 (Leadership + Luck) for example: (Scholar + Learning), (Sorcery + Mysticism) or (Intelligence + Mysticism)
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 21, 2017 07:32 PM |
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An option to only reveal grail's location on the last obelisk.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 21, 2017 08:07 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 20:09, 21 Mar 2017.
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Eagle Eye:
Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).
Basic: Allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Own Magic School skill applies instead of enemy Hero's skill. Has a chance equal to the Eagle Eye skill to learn the spell.
Advanced: Same as Basic, except also allows for Level 3 Spells.
Expert: Same as Advanced, except also allows for level 4 Spells.
Note that this spell is cast instead of casting a spell from the Hero's own spellbook in that turn. Not sure if this should also apply to the Adventure Spells, as they have no effect during combat, but might provide a chance to learn those spells, too. Perhaps make it so that any such spell is in effect after combat ends?
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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phonyamerican
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 21, 2017 08:09 PM |
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Maurice said:
Eagle Eye:
Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).
Basic: Allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Own Magic School skill applies instead of enemy Hero's skill. Has a chance equal to the Eagle Eye skill to learn the spell.
Advanced: Same as Basic, except also allows for Level 3 Spells.
Expert: Same as Advanced, except also allows for level 4 Spells.
Note that this spell is cast instead of casting a spell from the Hero's own spellbook in that turn. Not sure if this should also apply to the Adventure Spells, as they have no effect during combat, but might provide a chance to learn those spells, too. Perhaps make it so that any such spell is in effect after combat ends?
This is not a bad suggestion
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 22, 2017 12:51 AM |
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I realise that Wisdom should be a requirement for casting spells from the enemy spellbook at level 3 (Basic Wisdom and above) and level 4 (Advanced or Expert Wisdom)
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2017 02:24 AM |
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Yeah, that's another thoughtful idea for Eagle Eye apart from removing it altogether (and maybe replacing it by a new skill).
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2017 02:34 PM |
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I like the direction of Maurice's suggestion for Eagle Eye but I don't think that's good enough...
How about the following...
IN COMBAT:
Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).
Basic: Allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Own Magic School skill applies instead of enemy Hero's skill. For each battle, uses enemy mana at first cast from enemy spellbook, then uses own mana at consecutive casts. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a chance equal to the Eagle Eye skill to learn any other level 1-2 spell.
Advanced: Allows casting level 1-2 spells from enemy spellbook at a level one higher than his own, and also allows level 3 spells at his own level (as if he has Basic Wisdom). For each battle, uses enemy mana at first cast from enemy spellbook, then uses own mana at consecutive casts. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a chance equal to the Eagle Eye skill to learn any other level 1-3 spell, but in both cases ONLY IF required prerequisites are there.
Expert: Allows casting level 1-2 spells from enemy spellbook at two levels higher than his own, level 3 spells at one level higher than his own (no upgrade of level 3 spells if normal prerequisites are not there) and also allows level 4 spells at his own level (as if he has Advanced Wisdom). For each battle, uses enemy mana at first cast from enemy spellbook, then uses own mana at consecutive casts. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a chance equal to the Eagle Eye skill to learn any other level 1-4 spell, but in both cases ONLY IF required prerequisites are there.
ADVENTURE:
Enables looking at enemy hero spellbook if the enemy hero is within his scouting range. Also enables looking at the mage guild of an enemy town if it's within scouting range. Gives a chance equal to Eagle Eye skill to successfully cast an adventure spell (chance to be rolled upon attempt to cast, so an attempt can fail or succeed) once per turn (a failed attempt this turn means no other chances this turn). Eligible adventure spells are determined per Eagle Eye level: Untrained (none), Basic (Levels 1-2), Advanced (Level 3), Expert (Level 4). A successful casting of an adventure spell will teach that spell with 100% chance, but ONLY IF required prerequisites are there.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 22, 2017 03:14 PM |
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I actually like the idea of EE making the hero learn from creatures, it slightly improves the skill without changing its meaning.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 22, 2017 03:52 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:53, 22 Mar 2017.
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I am not entirely sold on using the enemy Hero's mana, to be honest. It's something I toyed with as well while thinking about it, but in the end I am not sure if it's too strong of an effect, even if it's just 1 Spell each combat. It provides a free cast for the one with the skill AND drains enemy mana.
But I agree that the skill may need a bit more, because once a Hero knows all spells, its benefit would cease. I can't think of anything else that might fit the spirit of the Skill besides the mana usage, though. But maybe instead of first cast only, make it drain mana from the enemy equal to a percentage equal to the Eagle Eye skill, of the total spell cost, the rest being paid for by the Hero itself? Of course, up to the amount of mana the enemy Hero has in reserve. That way, you can't have free casts, but you get continued benefit.
I like the idea of looking into enemy Mage Guilds if your Hero is within range of an enemy Town.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2017 04:11 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 16:20, 22 Mar 2017.
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I agree, one free spell is not the best way, and I like the idea to scale the impact with EE level.
So, I'd like to amend the proposal above with: each time the hero casts from enemy book, a percentage (equal to EE chance) of the mana is siphoned from the enemy. Note, siphoning works only when enemy book is used.
Edit: On second thought, this will make the skill OP in late game. In an ultimate battle, this means repeatedly casting from the enemy book at their mana expense. So, maybe limit it to a total of three casts from enemy book?
Galaad, that would fit the EE skill, but which creature spells?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 22, 2017 04:19 PM |
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If a hero with Eagle Eye could learn level 1-5 combat spells from enemy heroes, enemy creatures AND friendly creatures, it would be a pretty good skill imo. Maybe also adventure spells, maybe not.
Creatures casting spells:
Master Genies: 17 different beneficial spells, including Haste, Shield, Stone Skin, Bless, Cure and Prayer.
Fairie Dragons: 8 different damaging spells, including Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning.
Enchanters: 8 different mass spells, including Haste, Slow, Bless and Cure.
4 Elementals: 4 "Protection from" spells
Arch Angels: Resurrection (!)
Ogre Mages: Bloodlust
and if playing HotA
Satyrs: Mirth
Leprechauns: Fortune
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 22, 2017 04:51 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Enchanters: 7 different mass spells, including Haste, Slow, Bless and Cure.
Enchanters can cast 8 different spells, actually:
Haste: 17.86% chance
Air Shield: 11.90% chance
Slow: 11.90% chance
Stone Skin: 17.86% chance
Bloodlust: 5.95% chance
Bless: 17.86% chance
Cure: 11.90% chance
Weakness: 4.76% chance
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 22, 2017 04:54 PM |
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Can they also cast Bloodlust?
According to http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Enchanter they can't...
Edit: You are absolutely right, I just tested it.
Then I will edit the wiki and my previous post.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 22, 2017 06:54 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
If a hero with Eagle Eye could learn level 1-5 combat spells from enemy heroes, enemy creatures AND friendly creatures, it would be a pretty good skill imo. Maybe also adventure spells, maybe not.
alas it will be worthless after those spells are learned unlike most skills lol
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 22, 2017 07:05 PM |
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Scouting is also useless when you have discovered the map.
First Aid is useless if you don't have a tent.
Estates is useless if you got "enough" money.
Archery is useless if you don't have any ranged units.
Wisdom is useless if you have Tomes.
Necromancy is useless if you got no room for skeletons.
Diplomacy is useless if there are no more creatures on the map.
Scouting, Diplomacy, Mysticism, Logistics, Pathfinding and Navigation are useless if you are staying in a town.
Any skill can be useless really.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 22, 2017 07:18 PM |
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albeit not what I meant, for sure all of those skills are situational and many also suck but they still continue to have a function in campaigns for instance even if not needed,
with Scouting you can scout the next map, First Aid you can get a tent, Estates still make money, Archery get a ranged unit, Wisdom fundamental requirement to permanently learn the spells, Diplomacy reduce the surrender cost, Mysticism still recover the mana, Logistics Pathfinding and Navigation still travel faster, (and Navigation already banned when no water about) lol
the Eagle Eye current concept without a mana drain or Maurice fix is truly worthless and serves literally no purpose in any way shape or form once you get all the spells, zero at all lol
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2017 07:19 PM |
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verriker said:
phoenix4ever said:
If a hero with Eagle Eye could learn level 1-5 combat spells from enemy heroes, enemy creatures AND friendly creatures, it would be a pretty good skill imo. Maybe also adventure spells, maybe not.
alas it will be worthless after those spells are learned unlike most skills lol
İt won't be worthless with what I proposed...
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 22, 2017 07:27 PM |
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@verriker Eagle Eye won't be useless unless you have learned every spell, which is pretty hard unless you find a Conflux with the grail.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 22, 2017 08:28 PM |
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thGryphn said:
Ä°t won't be worthless with what I proposed...
I agree I am talking about the versions where it just lets you learn a spell lol
phoenix4ever said:
@verriker Eagle Eye won't be useless unless you have learned every spell, which is pretty hard unless you find a Conflux with the grail.
this is quite plausible to be honest, for example in Armageddon's Blade, Shadow of Death or any of the Heroes Chronicles campaigns I would never give my main hero Eagle Eye to save my life because I know they will learn every spell before long lol
if we are talking about practicality though mate the skill simply needs something with a more prolific use like the Maurice or Grphyn fix,
if your opponent has a good spell you really want to learn it is much easier to just kick his ass and take his town with the spell in it than it is to max out Eagle Eye, beat his main hero and pray that he casts the spell, after all if you can beat the main hero you can usually beat the town too lol
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