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| Thread: [HOMM5.5] Are ranged (neutral?) units too strong? | |
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted April 22, 2017 07:09 PM |
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[HOMM5.5] Are ranged (neutral?) units too strong?
This is a balance discussion aimed at understanding the balance of the game and also how to approach it properly.
Ranged neutral units seem extremely strong on the map when trying to creep. The difference between having to face an Tier 3 Hunter stack versus say a Minotaur stack is staggering.
Ranged units advantages:
- they usually have decent initiative (around 10)
- they can shoot straight away
- their damage is comparable to a melee unit (at range)
- some of them are also spellcasters (with devastating spells when in low numbers druids, mages)
- they have high hitpoints - most ranged units are decently tanky which means they cannot easily be dispatched by a spell and when a unit gets in melee range they can still fight back properly.
They are also made stronger because:
- Low-level units cannot reach them in the first turn (so they will always get a shot in
- The slower units in the lower tier (swordsmen, minotaurs, zombies, golems) are not very tanky to overcome their slowness and take massive losses when fighting them.
So, in my opinion, dealing with these ranged units is way too difficult in the early game, compared to any other kind of unit. They can inflict too much damage in the first volley they shoot crippling your main army. And if you lose too much to these units you will simply be unable to further kill creeps. If you are unlucky and you get too many ranged stacks your creeping grinds to a halt.
Therefore, I ask, what is the solution?
- Should they be nerfed somehow?
- Are there ways to deal with them? - please suggest
- Should I aim to pick a starting hero which can deal with these (some heroes are better than others when creeping early, such as warmachine specialists, but the problem still remains for all other heroes)
Please comment and discuss constructively.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 22, 2017 09:36 PM |
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Hello okrane,
Great question! Ranged units are indeed a bit harder than default melee ones but if approached with wits they can be beaten without significant losses.
As you are speaking too general I will start with general tips.
First of all Archers does half the damage of other units because they suffer range penalty.
If you play with Mages that deal direct damage, empty your hero army and leave one tier 1 unit in each slot (for example 7 imps). Attack the archer stack. Now when the archers shoot they will kill just one stack at a time which is only 1 imp. You have 7 turns to deal with them with spells.
Mages (if have correct perks) can act before archers and cast some spells to counter archers such as:
- Light magic - mass deflect arrow which practically nullifies ranged damage. Teleportation can be used to teleport a strong melee unit next to ranged creatures.
- Summoning magic Blade Barrier and Arcane Crystal can disable ranged units from shooting if cast next to them.
- Destruction + master of ice - can delay archers' turn so melee units can reach them before shooting. With Destruction you can just kill them or reduce their numbers significantly before they have time to get a shot.
- Dark magic - Forgetfulness, Blindness or Puppet master are great ways to disable enemy ranged units.
Fighters have harder time but their strength vs ranged units grow with the levels gained. One way to fight ranged units is by getting War machines + tent perk. This way your tent can heal and resurrect damaged units up to three times during the battle which will considerable reduce unit loss.
Fighters can also get Combat + stunning strike. This way every time they hit the enemy archers they will be delayed for their next attack thus giving more time to his units block them and reducing range damage.
War machines + Tripple balista also works well against archers because you can pick one unit in all 7 slots and use the balista + hero to kill the archers.
Get defend + evasion for 20% archer damage reduction.
If you have questions regarding specific races, heroes and units bring them on as every faction has its own strategy.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 23, 2017 10:27 AM |
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The game is generally better balanced if neutrals on the adventure map are mixed. The problem also applies to spellcasters. The creatures themselves are not overpowered in the context of their factions as a whole.
Since older maps do not benefit from the mixed neutrals of the ARMG, I recommend processing them with the new mapmixer utility to add more mixed stacks.
The combat in H3 & H5 is traditionally very fast, means first strike counts a lot and benefits shooters, mathematically the speed is already reduced in h55 by lowering dmg multiplier from 0.5 to 0.33.
But if I take it further and combat speed is more like H6 then people might complain traditional HOMM feel is gone. Also armies can get so huge in H55 XL maps that 'main vs main battles' can already take half an hour late game.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted April 23, 2017 12:30 PM |
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dredknight said:
Mages (if have correct perks) can act before archers and cast some spells to counter archers such as:
- Light magic - mass deflect arrow which practically nullifies ranged damage. Teleportation can be used to teleport a strong melee unit next to ranged creatures.
- Summoning magic Blade Barrier and Arcane Crystal can disable ranged units from shooting if cast next to them.
- Destruction + master of ice - can delay archers' turn so melee units can reach them before shooting. With Destruction you can just kill them or reduce their numbers significantly before they have time to get a shot.
- Dark magic - Forgetfulness, Blindness or Puppet master are great ways to disable enemy ranged units.
Fighters have harder time but their strength vs ranged units grow with the levels gained. One way to fight ranged units is by getting War machines + tent perk. This way your tent can heal and resurrect damaged units up to three times during the battle which will considerable reduce unit loss.
Fighters can also get Combat + stunning strike. This way every time they hit the enemy archers they will be delayed for their next attack thus giving more time to his units block them and reducing range damage.
War machines + Tripple balista also works well against archers because you can pick one unit in all 7 slots and use the balista + hero to kill the archers.
Get defend + evasion for 20% archer damage reduction.
If you have questions regarding specific races, heroes and units bring them on as every faction has its own strategy.
Of course this all makes sense, but given how ranged require all this preparation while slow melee don't it makes my point a valid concern.
You do need to prepare your hero / army to handle ranged and spellcasters while melee units like swordmen are a walk in the park for any hero.
I see this as a balance issue which I would hope a mod like HOMM5.5 would maybe try to tackle perhaps by adding more HP to slow walkers or lower hp of archers for example.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 23, 2017 01:43 PM |
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Overall walkers have more HP than ranged units.
The idea of having 2 different type of attacks (actually 3 if you count magicians) is to have different experience throughout the game. Each one has its own difficulty and requires its own strategy to get over with.
From what you have said so far you admit that there is a strategy you can use to beat the ranged units but you are unwilling to use it because it is just not the same as the one you use against walkers.
H55 has already good balance between archers and melee units (try unmoded ToTe for example, archers will punish your units even harder).
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