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| Thread: 100 years later, Bolshevism is back |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 09:27 AM |
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100 years later, Bolshevism is back
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/bolshevism-then-and-now/2017/11/06/830aecaa-bf41-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?sw_bypass=true
At the beginning of 1917, on the eve of the Russian revolution, most of the men who would become known to the world as the Bolsheviks had very little to show for their lives. They had been in and out of prison, constantly under police surveillance, rarely employed. Vladimir Lenin spent most of the decade preceding the revolution drifting between Krakow, Zurich and London. Joseph Stalin spent those years in the Caucasus, running protection rackets and robbing banks. Leon Trotsky had escaped from Siberian exile was to be found in Viennese coffee shops; when the revolution broke out, he was showing off his glittering brilliance at socialist meeting halls in New York...
How Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, Viktor Urban, Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, and others are the neo-Bolsheviks of 2017.
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Zenofex
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posted November 08, 2017 12:25 PM |
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I haven't (and will not) read the whole article because the few paragraphs of "analysis" of the October revolution which is just a copy-paste and recycle of paid studies which were quite popular 15-20 years ago and have zero journalistic, let alone scientific value. The whole "the commies are returning, beware!" suggestion which seems to be gaining power for some time is really daft, even for your typical propaganda material to blacken some controversial politician. 100 years ago they would have killed Trump and the likes of him on the spot during the Red Terror. And Orban, for that matter. And most of the rest. It takes more imagination to paint a picture of doom than to pick a random "bad guy" from the past and put him next to a contemporary "bad guy", claiming that they are basically the same.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 01:17 PM |
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I haven't (and will not) read your whole post because of your few words of "analysis" of the article, which is just a copy-paste and recycle of paid studies which were quite popular 15-20 years ago and have zero journalistic, let alone scientific value.
You clearly can't contribute since you had a temper tantrum by paragraph 2 or you would know how incorrect your post is. As usual you go into hyper-defensive mode anytime somebody utters a single word about Russian history, like it's some kind of sacred cow.
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Kipshasz
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posted November 08, 2017 01:31 PM |
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"How Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, Viktor Urban, Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, and others are the neo-Bolsheviks of 2017. "
LMAO. In a sense.
Bolsheviks, during the twilight of the Russian empire were the biggest political group in the Duma at the time, hence their name. Bolshe means big in russian. The said political group, yes, did caused the emergence of the red plague, but calling the afromentioned politicians as neo-bolsheviks is bullcrap at the very best of terms.
They may be populist, yes, sure, why not. Extreme populism in some cases, but in a sense, they at least try to solve the issues that your average joe faces.
Trump these days is pushing a tax cut for the middle class and small businesses - the F is wrong with that?
The real neo-bolsheviks are the regressive left, with antifa, blm, islamic terror apologists and all the other scumbags that are out there today.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 02:10 PM |
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The purpose was to compare the campaign tactics of the Bolsheviks with the campaign tactics of this new group of people; to see how similarly they operate.
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Zenofex
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posted November 08, 2017 02:31 PM |
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Quote:
You clearly can't contribute since you had a temper tantrum by paragraph 2 or you would know how incorrect your post is. As usual you go into hyper-defensive mode anytime somebody utters a single word about Russian history, like it's some kind of sacred cow.
Nice try junior. Next time bring along something balanced which "utters a single word" about the actual Russian history and not some marginal bull**** which any paid graphomaniac can put together in his free time. I'd react the same if someone starts praising Lenin or the revolution like they were the best thing which happened to humankind but I doubt I'll ever see something like that in Washington Post and its likes.
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Salamandre
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posted November 08, 2017 02:48 PM |
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This is - for me at least - a dishonest propaganda, in the sense that analysis is built coherently until a middle point, but then the conclusions are coming from no where and only serve the author political views, not some objectivity based on facts or on prior analysis.
Once again, "democrats" from all countries are painted as have all been dedicated to representative democracy, religious tolerance, economic integration and the Western alliance, while neo-bolsheviks as Donald Trump, Viktor Orban, Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen and Jaroslaw Kaczynski are opposed as want to overthrow existing institutions. Instead of the false and misleading vision of the future offered by Lenin and Trotsky, they offer a false and misleading vision of the past. They conjure up worlds made up of ethnically or racially pure nations, old-fashioned factories, traditional male-female hierarchies and impenetrable borders. Their enemies are homosexuals, racial and religious minorities, advocates of human rights, the media, and the courts.
All this is BS, there is nothing any close to truth there, at least concerning the people quoted. It's a pity that politics became so heated and exclusive today. Usually it was or it should be "this is my stance, what is yours then let's come to a middle ground". Today's left considers it has the only valid point and for that it has to completely distort other's ideas and that's why isn't working and why they are losing ground everywhere.
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Stevie
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posted November 08, 2017 02:57 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
As usual you go into hyper-defensive mode anytime somebody utters a single word about...
Projecting much? The only one getting all defensive is you, buddy.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 03:20 PM |
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Zeno has done this multiple times.
Not that the article is even designed to be read by relics. It is taken as a given that Stalin/Lenin/Trotsky were unconstructive leaders to a high order of magnitude, and then moves on to describe similarities in how new leaders have been gaining political power.
But without the first assumption, you can't move on from there, similar to trying to skip rungs on a ladder.
And I am not even going there, because frankly that conversation is old, old news.
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Zenofex
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posted November 08, 2017 03:30 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:31, 08 Nov 2017.
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Well, if you draw a stupid initial conclusion, you can't construct a very smart thesis on top of it, can you? I know that it's not very popular on your end of the Big Water to talk about this topic from any other angle than "the reds suck" but these "unconstructive leaders", whatever that means, have practically built the economy of the state which would oppose the US and its allies for half a century and that's already quite something given what they started with (do some research on the civil war in the USSR, the White Terror, the Western intervention and stuff please, also on what the Russian empire looked like before the unconstructive change of government). That was recognized even by Churchill. They also did that on top of mountains of corpses and generally a huge list of atrocities of all kinds but to focus only on that part or only on the achievement shows only your one-sided attempt to simplify the topic to the point that it will become suitable for spoon-feeding it to willing propaganda consumers.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 03:39 PM |
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Ok sure. I concede. Good job.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 08, 2017 03:44 PM |
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Salamandre said:
This is - for me at least - a dishonest propaganda, in the sense that analysis is built coherently until a middle point, but then the conclusions are coming from no where and only serve the author political views, not some objectivity based on facts or on prior analysis.
Once again, "democrats" from all countries are painted as have all been dedicated to representative democracy, religious tolerance, economic integration and the Western alliance, while neo-bolsheviks as Donald Trump, Viktor Orban, Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen and Jaroslaw Kaczynski are opposed as want to overthrow existing institutions. Instead of the false and misleading vision of the future offered by Lenin and Trotsky, they offer a false and misleading vision of the past. They conjure up worlds made up of ethnically or racially pure nations, old-fashioned factories, traditional male-female hierarchies and impenetrable borders. Their enemies are homosexuals, racial and religious minorities, advocates of human rights, the media, and the courts.
All this is BS, there is nothing any close to truth there, at least concerning the people quoted. It's a pity that politics became so heated and exclusive today. Usually it was or it should be "this is my stance, what is yours then let's come to a middle ground". Today's left considers it has the only valid point and for that it has to completely distort other's ideas and that's why isn't working and why they are losing ground everywhere.
To be fair, the article is critical of some alt left politics that have violent tendencies, but that isn't really the point because the alt left currently hasn't had much success.
So you don't see Le Pen as trying to build up this image of "the Nation" to try to throw out the establishment? Then what do you see her as? Another centre-right candidate? (I know you have already said you prefer Filon)
Hasn't she targeted all of the above? Especially the media and courts.
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Salamandre
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posted November 08, 2017 03:56 PM |
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Le Pen is trying to throw out the system, but so did Macron and he succeeded. People feel saturated with old fashioned politics, they want new faces, new words and real reforms. Macron did a brilliant campaign but now is facing exactly same problems as predecessors, he is fighting the system inertia then he is himself morally incapable of putting in practice what the constitution asks: prioritize french citizens interests and rights at any cost. So I agree with the concept of "nation first", but that doesn't make one "nationalist", you have to put it in the economical and social context, not in the racial context, and this is where the left conflates concepts.
Blizzardboy said:
Hasn't she targeted all of the above? Especially the media and courts.
No, of course not. Is not because one criticizes medias bias that then you can put on his back racism, homophobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, patriarchate, white supremacy and whatever. This is just dishonest and an attempt to gather very uneducated people into voting.
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artu
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posted November 08, 2017 04:17 PM |
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Well, put aside what they represent for their voter base, I'd say Trump and Le Pen are very different to begin with in the sense that whether you agree or disagree, you can realize that Le Pen is a "true-believer" where as Trump is just trying to be the winning horse on a bet. But even in the case of Le Pen, the crucial difference is Lenin or Trotski really did believe in the communist ideal, wrote thousands of pages theory crafting discussing all details about government and they were ready to risk their lives for it. The article also acknowledges they were outcasts before rulers, where as Trump or Le Pen are privileged individuals risking political success at most, they'll be just fine even if they lose all their voter base.
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phe
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posted November 08, 2017 05:43 PM |
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and we still have red-tape/establishment Bolshevics, unnecessary officials, all inefficient, corrupted, homosexual and out-of-date, unnecessary schools, unnecessary army, unnecessary large amount of uniform people, unnecessary corrupted and crime liking secret services, unnecessary state owned inefficient, corrupted, health service, still a lot of criminals which we have to maintain in prisons, still unpunished lobbiests (oil, energy, finances, cars, real-estates, meat, medicines etc.), unpunished big business and finances,
still bad and lazy people have voting rights, still bad and lazy people living on the expense of others, still all people have to share significant part of their job/income with those who they don't like and have quite different beliefs, still we have failure of democracy and justice system all over the world,
still (should be 70 years ago) we don't have in common use antigravity which would make our life much easier, (40 times faster than planes, easy access to space, no roads and aiports necessary, flying and fast ambulaces, fire service, police), still we don't have many other technologies...
but we have common use of mind control by armies and secret services, mistreat and killing of inncocent people (car accidents, plane crashes, shootings, terror acts etc )...we also have artifical earthqukes and tsunamis, weather control, floods and millions of victims...
how that's all is similar to Bolshevism...
every day of continuation of this misery is lost for mankind...every day brings a lot of victims...every day of it is a shame for mankind and for every of you if you keep up these kind of talks avoiding real sirious issues...
it's time for revolution against it all, severe punishment and complete replacement...introducing good and honest, minimal and efficient governments; getting rid of red tape, state debts, taxes and criminals; introducing technologies...
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tSar-Ivor
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posted November 08, 2017 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
You clearly can't contribute since you had a temper tantrum by paragraph 2 or you would know how incorrect your post is. As usual you go into hyper-defensive mode anytime somebody utters a single word about Russian history, like it's some kind of sacred cow.
Zeno does make a valid point though, considering how aghast I was with college and secondary school's placcid account/analysis of anything pre and post Russian revolution (compared to University where you actually get access to some high grade sources). The article is essentially some textbook rehash, which is totally fine if you want to have a low-brow view of things, but don't try to make it more than it is (pure garbage) if anyone's interested in real knowledge regarding the commies I do have recommendations, you're welcome to holla anytime (though my area of expertise is the civil war, the the revolution and the subsequent coup are obviously critical to a wider understanding, even events prior but I won't dawdle).
I wish I could flag this thread as provocative, no way the OP legit thinks this crap is worth a second look, probably trolling or just wants to provoke a response.
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Minion
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posted November 09, 2017 12:03 AM |
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This forum is not what it used to be, now it is clearer than ever. A post is made about a good topic, Bolshevism. The most pro-russia poster declares he WONT EVEN READ the article. And his followers agree.
The world now is so divided there is no connection between the left and the right- Salamandre considers EVERYONE on the left as a radical . And I considered him the smartest guy from the right at one point. I feel like a fool.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted November 09, 2017 12:06 AM |
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The OP has nothing to do with Bolshevism, a geezer at the pub could come up with more accurate analysis of Bolshevism than the article.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Minion
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posted November 09, 2017 12:13 AM |
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Not literally about it but there was a good conversation to be had about it's parallels to modern days.
Btw are you what year studying philosophy?
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tSar-Ivor
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posted November 09, 2017 12:42 AM |
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I'm assuming you're asking me what I studied? Political science (combined honours politics and history), graduated in politics 1st class degree, history as a 2:1.
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