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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 16, 2018 10:25 PM |
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@athos
Go to advanced editor - content browser (light bulb icon), type instant recall to the search field, right click the archetype Instant Recall, go to properties and change the school to Prime, save the package afterwards.
@Quaranyr
We felt that Stalker was too vulnerable, so we wanted to add a defensive buff. But it's true that an ability dependent on hero's level makes neutrals weaker, it's a kind of an experiment I'd say.
Which buff do you mean, any ability improvement?
I wrote down all the other notes  I'll be glad to hear other ideas as well.
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athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 17, 2018 12:30 AM |
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Edited by athos at 00:30, 17 Sep 2018.
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Antalyan said:
@athos
Go to advanced editor - content browser (light bulb icon), type instant recall to the search field, right click the archetype Instant Recall, go to properties and change the school to Prime, save the package afterwards.
Okay, great, that worked!
Now how do I revert the spell icon to Prime_Instant_Recall?
Right now I have no icon showing up even though in the properties I added the Prime icon location.
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athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 17, 2018 12:51 AM |
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Nevermind, I went back in the editor and the Prime icon suddenly appeared. Everything working fine now.
Thanks for that help!
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Quaranyr
Hired Hero
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posted September 18, 2018 04:11 AM |
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Edited by Quaranyr at 05:01, 18 Sep 2018.
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Antalyan said:
We felt that Stalker was too vulnerable, so we wanted to add a defensive buff.
Strangely, it never felt that way to me (unlike assassins). I mean, Trackers (and upg. Cabirs) have the highest number of hp among core/t1 units; hunter (who is "strongcore"/t2) have merely 1 point more hp.
So, neither you or your team feel they are too weak damage-wise? Weird. I usually feel like unupgraded stalkers barely make any difference in battle, both when the Dungeon is my enemy and when I play them.
I thought about giving hunter double-shot (like in H2 and H5) and adding some new ability for upgrade.
Btw did you ever thought how strange it is that hunter have sword (not some puny dagger but an actual sword!) and yet hit people with his bow when in melee?
I also think that hp of Assassin/Shade should be increased to Stalker/Tracker level (from 10/11 to 12/14).
No idea about Medusae right now.
A few comments about some other of your changes, if you will:
changelog said:
- Black Guard receives Strike & Return
What. Just ...why?
changelog said:
- Rhinoceros Skin (Lava Elemental, Magma Elemental): +2 Defense for every tile crossed until the creature's next turn.
H5 Alt!Dancer ability? Feels rather ...unsuitable for this unit if you ask me. Charge would suit better.
changelog said:
Life Drain doesn’t heal the correct amount of damage on area attacks
CHANGE: It sucks damage only from the primary target.
Never noticed any problem with that. It IS a serious Dark Hydra nerf. And it got nothing to compensate.
changelog said:
Heal spell displays nonsensical healing power when also dealing damage to undead
CHANGE: This spell deals no longer damage to undead
Ugh. Was it really the only way to fix it?
I still dislike Wasps damage change. Ardent Dragon's new ability is questionable as well.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 18, 2018 03:40 PM |
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@Quaranyr
Balance is always tricky, everyone has a different point of view That's why more opinions always help but are more difficult to unite.
Actually, I even considered the idea with Master Hunter before but the creature seemed too strong.
Black Guard: Its former ability was moved to Fortress and there was no creature like Blood Fury (H5). He's from Windswords which explains why he's so agile.
Rhonoceros skill: It seemed to perfectly fit the creature (it's interesting to see you having an opposite opinion), charge is already in use by two creatures
Life Drain: Try without the mod, when the creature was about to hit more targets, it always healed the same amount of HP more times according to the secondary targets.
Heal: If you find a way how to fix it, I'll be glad The bug is probably hidden in the source code.
I don't like Ardent Dragon's ability either (another experiment from my side) and I will consider changing it.
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AncientDruids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted September 18, 2018 04:12 PM |
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Blackguard is a dude with a bigass axe and full body armor. No way he's as agile as harpies and air elementals. Giving him Strike and Return ability seems a bit jarring to me.
Antalyan said:
Black Guard: Its former ability was moved to Fortress and there was no creature like Blood Fury (H5). He's from Windswords which explains why he's so agile.
I think that Crusher's "Unfettered" would suit him more. Or something brutish in similar vein.
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Quaranyr
Hired Hero
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posted September 18, 2018 06:46 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Actually, I even considered the idea with Master Hunter before but the creature seemed too strong.
What ability was considered? Stats-wise Master Hunter is the weakest t2 in the game. Even with both shots and close range his attack still deal lower damage than a single golem hit. Basic Hunter is barely stronger than t1!
Antalyan said:
Black Guard: Its former ability was moved to Fortress and there was no creature like Blood Fury (H5). He's from Windswords which explains why he's so agile.
Just look at them. Giving them strike and return have as much sense as giving it to golem. And they left Windswords hundreds years ago.
Antalyan said:
Rhonoceros skill: It seemed to perfectly fit the creature (it's interesting to see you having an opposite opinion), charge is already in use by two creatures.
As with previous ability, it assoticiated with nimble and agile creature. Magma elemental is exact opposite of it.
Antalyan said:
Life Drain: Try without the mod, when the creature was about to hit more targets, it always healed the same amount of HP more times according to the secondary targets.
Do you plan to give Dark Hydra something in return?
Antalyan said:
Heal: If you find a way how to fix it, I'll be glad The bug is probably hidden in the source code.
Is it just a visual bug or but or damage actually calculated wrong way? If it's former than I would prefer to leave it as it is.
What is your team's general thoughts on faction balance? On the last official version I mean.
For me it felt like Haven (could use a sliiight nerf) > Academy, Fortress (good) > Necropolis, Stronghold (lamasu, wyvern...) > Sylvan, Dungeon (could use a buff).
Judging by your changes, your team have quite a different opinion about it.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 23, 2018 10:58 AM |
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@AncientDruids
Unfettered wouldn't make the creature special enough imo but we'll consider adding a different ability for this creature.
@Quaranyr
Master Hunter: Doubleshot ability consider, the creature deals twice as much damage in fact, that's why it's weaker in regards of stats.
However, if you propose a weak ability which would make the creature slightly better, I won't be against.
Rhinoceros: I guess you have this impression because of H5 experience
Life Drain: It's still in consideration. Any ideas?
Heal: It was a GUI issue (tooltip not corresponding with actual spell effect), you can revert it back in the editor if you like.
Balance: I must say we haven't discussed balance enough so far, at least not in this way. (balance always comes last)
However, monitoring different forums, I've noticed that people often consider Necropolis OP while Sylvan and Haven seem weaker.
To be honest, this mod's development has stopped for a while right now since I don't have time atm.
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MoritzBradtke
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2018 05:10 PM |
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i think u've created some great new skills (: i would like to use em in my own mod, not all but a lot of them, i think the skills need balancing though, as they have been created to make the Units more interesting, not stronger, some examples: incorporeal, ive created that skill as well (probably only one i think), should be like 5% Chance, 15% is way too much, creature would have to be nerfed to Keep it that high, like Setting def to 0
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NikLan
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2018 05:44 PM |
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Edited by NikLan at 21:35, 24 Sep 2018.
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Uh, I'm here again. Started new game for Necro with 1.1 Full version. And from the start have 2 hmm... questions:
1. In the mod list is written that Incorporeal gives 15% dodge, but in the gamepedia this number is 20%. Who's right?
2. Necromancy was nerfed again to 10% (against 12% it was in original). This is huge nerf and it's not mentioned in the mod list. It's a bug? (or maybe I'm blind? )
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 25, 2018 05:21 PM |
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MoritzBradtke said:
i think u've created some great new skills (: i would like to use em in my own mod, not all but a lot of them, i think the skills need balancing though, as they have been created to make the Units more interesting, not stronger, some examples: incorporeal, ive created that skill as well (probably only one i think), should be like 5% Chance, 15% is way too much, creature would have to be nerfed to Keep it that high, like Setting def to 0
Thank you, use whatever you need as long (as you mention me as the source )
It's hard to make units interesting enough without making them stronger: using your example, Incorporeal with a 5% chance would hardly make any difference. However, stat nerfs are in consideration.
NikLan said:
Uh, I'm here again. Started new game for Necro with 1.1 Full version. And from the start have 2 hmm... questions:
1. In the mod list is written that Incorporeal gives 15% dodge, but in the gamepedia this number is 20%. Who's right?
2. Necromancy was nerfed again to 10% (against 12% it was in original). This is huge nerf and it's not mentioned in the mod list. It's a bug? (or maybe I'm blind? )
Nice to see you again
1. Heropedia is right, some last changes may not be included in the description of the mod. All the information you see in the game should be the valid ones. However, the value will be changed to 15 or even less soon (20% is way too much).
2. Good observation! There was a GUI issue displaying wrong necromancy value. In fact, necromancy has always resurrected only 10% but the tooltip said that it was more.
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Quaranyr
Hired Hero
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posted September 25, 2018 05:39 PM |
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I forgot to ask - is Magic Attack bug fixed? Is random damage type in not purely visual anymore and do consider weakness/resistance?
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NikLan
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 25, 2018 08:04 PM |
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Edited by NikLan at 20:08, 25 Sep 2018.
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Antalyan said:
However, the value will be changed to 15 or even less soon (20% is way too much).
Very questionable words. In H5 it was 50% and it was playable.
Antalyan said:
In fact, necromancy has always resurrected only 10% but the tooltip said that it was more.
Lol, now I remember that last time I've found bug with necromancy where it gave less skeletons. So, that's what this was all about!
Actually, all of this is a fractions balance parts. The truth is that noone at the moment (maybe except experienced multiplayer players) don't know anything about balance. So this all is nothing but an exercises in guesswork.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 26, 2018 02:50 PM |
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@Quaranyr
I hope it is
@NikLan
Both of your notes are actually connected with balance, this is probably the most discussed topic here. The key problem is: what exactly is the balance? All factions of the same power? But how to calculate it? The opinions differ a lot, so yeah, it's just and only blind guessing.
Speaking about the ghosts, several people I've discussed it with convinced me that it should be less, you can try to change my opinion 
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Important H7 tips & tricks
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MoritzBradtke
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2018 03:34 PM |
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hey, ive been testing some of new skills since ive started modding again to uptade my mod and add some stuff…
some notes: barbarian rage doesnt seem to work usually, i dont think the luck is increased always on attack when u attack a marked creature also basic range attack was missing in attack conditions
cursed blossom: ive noticed u used the earth bullet from druid for the Animation, did u consider using Pixie animatiions for the effect? when something attacks the Pixie the last part of the attack the Animation is curently clipped(Looks bit odd), also it also procs if the Pixie doesnt do anthing(no retalation,looks bit odd), Maybe Change it to on attack of Pixie, should look better and cause less Problems
holy blades: the Animation of the holy blades could fire off sooner, it happens a Little late, since it fires off on every attack even without undeads thats Looks a bit odd sometimes
siren song:
i like this but the UI still Show usual amounts of Damage when u mouseover her with the debuff, Maybe Change to debuff on atttack and unit Damage, would look more clean
shadow armour:
should probably belong to assasin not the Stalker, also the skill seems not to be finished as it has no buff archetype so i dont think it is working at all and it didnt on Combat start with shrouded active
also i Always try to set notes in my changelogs if i use soemthing from other mods (:
edit:
just some Feedback but i usually prefer Special skills to be treated as These, f.e flamming arrows is Default attack for Kobolds now but it only works for large creatures but GUI Always indicates it is active what is not the case, just small stuff but it annoys me 
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Quaranyr
Hired Hero
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posted September 26, 2018 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Quaranyr at 19:39, 26 Sep 2018.
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NikLan said:
Very questionable words. In H5 it was 50% and it was playable.
H5 ghosts were rather weak outside of being incorporeal. You could get more of them through necromancy but it was limited by dark energy and people usually raised more valuable units.
H7 ghosts are strongest on their level stat-wise + you can easily get quite a lot of them. See the difference?
Antalyan said:
Rhinoceros: I guess you have this impression because of H5 experience
This ability is literally "unit is harder to kill when it moves; effect is lost when it stays on place for too long". Do you see it as something else other than dodging when running?
By the way, did you thought about returning it to dancers? Maybe instead of vigilance if both are too much?
Antalyan said:
Master Hunter: Doubleshot ability consider, the creature deals twice as much damage in fact, that's why it's weaker in regards of stats.
However, if you propose a weak ability which would make the creature slightly better, I won't be against.
It's "twice as much damage" is still lower than a single hit from someone of the same level (golem), requires upgrade and works only when the first shot killed someone. Oh, and the second shot can't be affected by luck, even if it shows the animation. And the basic version has lower damage than upg. cabir.
H5 hunters had had highest damage among their level AND double shot on base version yet most people didn't called them OP. Now, I don't want to buff H7 version to that level, but the current one is really underwhelming.
When you play, don't you feel that it's sprites, druids and dancers who deal damage while hunters are ...just there?
Oh, and I wanted to ask for a long time but keep forgetting about it - did you thought about changing some GM access for non-random leveling? For example, usually a faction have 2 magic GM among it's heroes . Exeptions are:
- Academy who have 4 but lack skills like Battlecries or Offence (suits them),
- Haven with 3 (why? IMO Priest's Prime GM should be changed for something like Leadership)
- and Sylvan who can't GM any magic but earth aka the magic the most resisted damage type. How about giving them water GM? And it's really underused (only Academy Enchanter can learn it) so you could fix two problems at once.
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NikLan
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 27, 2018 09:45 PM |
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Edited by NikLan at 22:17, 27 Sep 2018.
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@Antalyan
I found bugs again 
"Eternal Servitude" must rise 25% of killed skeletons right after the hit. Reality: it doesn't work at all.
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NikLan
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 28, 2018 12:03 AM |
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Edited by NikLan at 00:07, 28 Sep 2018.
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Antalyan said:
@NikLan
Speaking about the ghosts, several people I've discussed it with convinced me that it should be less, you can try to change my opinion
Hmm, I don't really feel that I need it, but you may watch our discuss with Quaranyr if you interested.
Quaranyr said:
H5 ghosts were rather weak outside of being incorporeal.
Lol. In ToE banshees have 20 hp and pretty decent Att, Def, Dmg and good Velocity. If we look at all creatures in 3 lvl of all factions, we will see that banshees (with 20% evasion like in H7 UCP) are not really weak at all. This means that with 50% evasion they are stronger than most of the others. So, you are not right meaning that banshees in H5 was not so strong. But it wasn't imba.
Quaranyr said:
You could get more of them through necromancy but it was limited by dark energy and people usually raised more valuable units.
People who don't understand real power of Necropolis. I always took banshees through Necromancy and it rocks (only Vampires was better, but too rare).
Quaranyr said:
H7 ghosts are strongest on their level stat-wise
What? Did u saw the stats and abilities of the other creatures in 2nd lvl man? Banshees aren't strongest definitely. I can proof it. Let's take all melee creatures on 2nd lvl.
Banshee: 18 hp (with 20% evasion), 2-4 dmg, 3 att, 5 def, 6 vel + "Vigilance".
Ok, let's see:
Fury: 13 hp, 2-3 dmg, 1 att, 0 def, 6 vel + "No Retaliation" + "Strike & return". Stats are weaker, but abilities are so much stronger that overall Fury is stronger than Banshee.
Oak Dryad: 16 hp, 2-3 dmg, 2 att, 2 def, 5 vel + "Treant synergy" + "Gift of life". Same conclusion as with Fury.
Shade: 11 hp, 2-3 dmg, 3 att, 1 def, 5 vel + "Poisoned blades"(imba, lol) + "Backstab". Same conclusion.
So, as you see, Banshee is rather the weakest creature on the lvl.
Quaranyr said:
+ you can easily get quite a lot of them.
Yes. As in H5. Not so much actually, but there they was lvl 3.
Quaranyr said:
See the difference?
Yes. But not the one as you. I see that Banshees in H7 are still weaker than in H5.
@Antalyan
BUT! In H7 there is skeletons Necromancy in addition and this is a big difference. Taking this into account I see that Banshees+Skeletons strength are some kind overpowered now. But we need to nerf not creatures, but Necromancy. I propose to nerf Tower Of Necromancy: it must give +3% for skeletons and +2% for banshees instead +5% to all. And with this change it must have more easy buildorder - not after 4 lvl Magic Guild, but after 2 lvl and lower cost, f.e., 3 Crystals instead 5.
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Quaranyr
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2018 06:53 AM |
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Edited by Quaranyr at 06:56, 28 Sep 2018.
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NikLan said:
Lol. In ToE banshees have 20 hp and pretty decent Att, Def, Dmg and good Velocity. If we look at all creatures in 3 lvl of all factions, we will see that banshees (with 20% evasion like in H7 UCP) are not really weak at all. This means that with 50% evasion they are stronger than most of the others. So, you are not right meaning that banshees in H5 was not so strong. But it wasn't imba.
First of all, in H5 banshee is one of Wight's upgrades(L6), not a ghost upgrade.
Secondly, Poltergeist's (I think that's their English name?) attack, defence and damage is merely average (and Spectre have the former 2 below average). 20hp is low when most of melee L3 have 24-30. Steal Ammunition is usually useless.
Without Incorporeal they are squishy melee with mediocre combat stats and bad ability. "Rather weak" is suiting description for them.
NikLan said:
People who don't understand real power of Necropolis. I always took banshees through Necromancy and it rocks (only Vampires was better, but too rare).
I'm actually curious. Was that ghost based tactic effective in MP? People were propably surprised to see tons of ghosts.
NikLan said:
What? Did u saw the stats and abilities of the other creatures in 2nd lvl man? Banshees aren't strongest definitely. I can proof it. Let's take all melee creatures on 2nd lvl.
Banshee: 18 hp (with 20% evasion), 2-4 dmg, 3 att, 5 def, 6 vel + "Vigilance".
Ok, let's see:
Fury: 13 hp, 2-3 dmg, 1 att, 0 def, 6 vel + "No Retaliation" + "Strike & return". Stats are weaker, but abilities are so much stronger that overall Fury is stronger than Banshee.
Oak Dryad: 16 hp, 2-3 dmg, 2 att, 2 def, 5 vel + "Treant synergy" + "Gift of life". Same conclusion as with Fury.
Shade: 11 hp, 2-3 dmg, 3 att, 1 def, 5 vel + "Poisoned blades"(imba, lol) + "Backstab". Same conclusion.
So, as you see, Banshee is rather the weakest creature on the lvl.
"Stat-wise" means comparing only stats, without abilities.
Your conclusions are ...strange.
Furies are good units but die very quickly if focused and require bloodrage and/or flanking to deal noticable damage. I wouldn't say they are stronger than Banshee.
Dryads are weak by themselves and the Gift of Life is very bad ability unless you have specific hero build. Definitely worse than banshee.
Shades are useful when they can use backstab but are weak otherwise. Poisoned Blades are ok (unless you fight undead/constructs) but no more than that.
Again, stat-wise banshees are amazing. And their lack of abilities is compensated by their numbers (massive in long game).
NikLan said:
Yes. As in H5. Not so much actually, but there they was lvl 3.
In H5 raising ghosts means not raising someone else. In H7 battle won=free banshees.
NikLan said:
Yes. But not the one as you. I see that Banshees in H7 are still weaker than in H5.
They are strong compared to other H7 core and that is what important.
H7 hunters and assassins are trash compared to H5-H6. Should they get massive buffs just because of that?
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NikLan
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 29, 2018 11:50 PM |
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Edited by NikLan at 23:56, 29 Sep 2018.
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@Quaranyr
Hm, I think we have some misunderstanding. I'll try to explain.
First of the all, the "Stat-wise" comparison is pointless - we play real game with real creatures, not stat-wise. And if we compare complete creatures, I showed that Banshees are rather relatively weak than strong.
Second, my main idea is that stack of necromancied Poltergeists in H5 (with 50% incorporeal) was stronger than stack of Banshees in H7 (with 20% incorporeal). And it wasn't imbalanced.
And third,
NikLan said:
@Antalyan
BUT! In H7 there is skeletons Necromancy in addition and this is a big difference. Taking this into account I see that Banshees+Skeletons strength are some kind overpowered now. But we need to nerf not creatures, but Necromancy. I propose to nerf Tower Of Necromancy: it must give +3% for skeletons and +2% for banshees instead +5% to all. And with this change it must have more easy buildorder - not after 4 lvl Magic Guild, but after 2 lvl and lower cost, f.e., 3 Crystals instead 5.
P.S.
Quaranyr said:
H7 hunters and assassins are trash compared to H5-H6. Should they get massive buffs just because of that?
I don't know and I don't care. My conversation is only about Banshees, nothing more.
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This thread is pages long: 
