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| Thread: About the Ballistics skill |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted September 04, 2018 09:16 PM |
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About the Ballistics skill
I have mentioned it before, I'm not fond of the Ballistics skill.
I mostly play VS AI and it usually charges right out of the gate and if not, there are spells like Earthquake, Teleport, Air Shield plus Cyclops and Cannon in HotA.
That is also why I usually aim at the side towers, if I have Ballistics, to maybe save a few units (if I don't have Resurrection/Animate Dead) cause AI will open the gate anyway. But it's sometimes pretty hard to hit those damn towers.
I'm assuming the biggest benefit of Ballistics is that you get the turn before the enemy, (if they don't have Artillery) that means slow towns like Stronghold and Tower would benefit most from it. And Stronghold and Tower just happens to have Yog and Theodorus with Ballistics skill. But what about Rampart and Inferno, they have Uland and Olema with Ballistics, but Rampart and Inferno are already quite fast and have pretty good fliers.
That the skill also only does something when you are attacking a town also feels very situational to me.
So what do you think of Ballistics and Yog, Theodorus, Uland and Olema? And do you pick Ballistics to destroy the gate, the towers or to get "First Strike"?
And is the skill ever worth picking for other towns like perhaps Fortress or Cove in HotA?
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2018 09:30 PM |
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I know that my opinion doesn't weight too much since I, too, play ONLY against the AI, but... I'll still give my opinion, just because I can xD
So, no, I don't like ballistics. It's indeed a situational skill, but since I always landlock the AI somewhere where he can't bother me ballistics is always one of the 1st skills to replace, should it ever get crammed down my throat.
Also, not sure if you've ever played WoG but I think you should give it a try. WoG has improved so many crap skills that I don't even conceive anymore playing a game without having eagle eye or mysticism on my main hero, even though I play against the AI and I don't really need those skills. But, they have been improved in WoG, just like all other skills that in vanilla versions of the game are crappy indeed, so, you should consider playing WoG if you haven't done it already.
2 warnings, though, if you're ever gonna play WoG:
1) it is VERY overwhelming at first, so be ready to set aside a couple of hours to go though all of the changes and customizations so you can understand what they do, and to set your own preferences;
2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras without force field, quicksand, or both. Trust me on this one. Blind doesn't work on those creatures, hypnotize not even close, berserker doesn't work, slow doesn't work. On top of that they have fire shield (and it hurts), 14 movement speed (so they WILL get to you in turn 1), double strike, and the gayest thing of all is that they have a HIGH chance (probably 25% or so), to block half of the damage you do to them... and they freaking block it without problems. So, the only way to deal with those nasty Hydras is to have either force field, quicksand, or both. That's the only way to stop / slow them down from getting to you, and they're nasty as hell when they're rank 10 (yes, in WoG the creatures actually level up)
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted September 04, 2018 09:39 PM |
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Thanks Monere
About WoG, I simply don't like it and I wont play it, now a days I only play HotA.
I already improved the most useless skills, like Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism and Sorcery, but Ballistics is not a skill I can do much about and in my game I feel like Ballistics may be the very worst skill. (Except for AI which needs it badly, but it usually always has Ballistics.)
That's why I'm trying to figure out, if the skill is ever worth anything VS AI.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2018 09:58 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Thanks Monere
About WoG, I simply don't like it and I wont play it, now a days I only play HotA.
I already improved the most useless skills, like Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism and Sorcery, but Ballistics is not a skill I can do much about and in my game I feel like Ballistics may be the very worst skill. (Except for AI which needs it badly, but it usually always has Ballistics.)
That's why I'm trying to figure out, if the skill is ever worth anything VS AI.
The AI only beats the newbies... and me. So, it's not worth anything against real players, but you should probably listen to the advice of the pros instead of mine 
Also, what do you mean by "YOU have improved the skills"? Are you a developer / modder?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted September 04, 2018 10:01 PM |
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Yep, I am a modder, map-maker and player.
You can check out my changes here if you want: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804
It's not 100% updated, but almost.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2018 10:22 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Yep, I am a modder, map-maker and player.
You can check out my changes here if you want: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804
It's not 100% updated, but almost.
He! Lucky you that you can still have fun playing games that you mod. For some reason I find this ability hard to maintain.
And yeah, I'll check your thread and see what you are up to
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted September 04, 2018 10:41 PM |
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monere said:
2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras
These Hell Hydras are indeed very strong  I liked the way you described that 
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2018 02:21 AM |
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Well, I described it the way I've felt their gayness on my poor army
As someone whose all-time favorite town is the Heroes 3 Fortress town I can assure you that I hate the Hell Hydras as much as I love the chaos hydra
Have you felt their wrath, too?
RerryR said:
monere said:
2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras
These Hell Hydras are indeed very strong I liked the way you described that
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Otuken
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2018 04:31 AM |
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Ballistics skill's aim is breaking gate earlier then invading castle by ground creatures but the concept of conquering towns is nothing like that. I mean a scenario like these pratically never occur. Rather you conquer towns by your high level flyers and damage spells.
Not totally useless skill but better to not learn.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 05, 2018 05:03 AM |
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Nubs. Ballistic skill is only useful at NOT breaking gates (you skip catapult's turn, that's it), its purpose is to stay safe out of reach and is one of the top skills to have in single player custom and hard maps. AI parameters about getting through the gate are very strict so it is possible to keep it inside if your army has a specific setup. But as soon as one piece of wall is destroyed all those parameters change.
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Era II mods and utilities
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted September 05, 2018 08:09 AM |
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Edited by RerryR at 08:24, 05 Sep 2018.
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Salamandre said:
Nubs. Ballistic skill is only useful at NOT breaking gates (you skip catapult's turn, that's it), its purpose is to stay safe out of reach and is one of the top skills to have in single player custom and hard maps. AI parameters about getting through the gate are very strict so it is possible to keep it inside if your army has a specific setup. But as soon as one piece of wall is destroyed all those parameters change.
ah here we go again... every time something is called bad/underused/weak someone comes around the corner and screams" But do you know THIS trick and THAT custom map, it's absolutely necessary to have that and you cannot go without it."
What if I told you can implement the snowtiest thing imaginable, in a game, which does absolutely nothing but still design a map around it where it is mandatory to win or progress. This is always possible. This speaks for the Mapmaker, his design (maybe)and his knowledge about the game but not necessary for the game itself, if the skill does nothing in 99% of cases in the rest of the game. Prominent examples here would be Eagle Eye and Ballistic and some heroes or spells which were discussed here before.
I mean a skill like Ballistic certainly fits but why not improve it to a level where it's not so situational, in the case you mentioned its more about abousing stupid AI. Make it skill I can pick at least in 20% of my games. Currently i pick it 0 %, like forever. I know its designed to be like that but yeah, why not improve it and discuss about it, because we have the possibility here to do so, I think phoenix is doing a good job with that.
I hope you get my point.
And of course I didn't know the trick you mentioned, so thanks for telling us
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 05, 2018 08:22 AM |
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Is not about this or that map, it is NOT situational. Is about 90% of good maps, they are almost all designed with this trick in mind as it is as old as RoE, it is basic knowledge. Consider several things:
a) if a mapmaker lets AI heroes run around, there is a risk of freezing game or modifications of individual setup as those heroes will exchange armies.
b) thus the majority of battles are set as siege based or fixed locations. Most will be siege type because there must be some challenge when you acquire a new town.
c) In a siege battle, if you set balanced armies, the player will still use the ballistic trick and battle will not be challenging at all, thus you have to set AI army xx times bigger, so at some point battles are not doable any longer without the ballistic trick.
d) The reverse is also possible and used as well. If you destroy the catapult, there is no way for the other player, granted he has not earthquake or cyclops that he can enter the castle.
if you don't have ballistic you still can achieve same results, but is riskier and depends on your spell power, your ability to destroy your own catapult in 1-2 turns, while it exposes you to AI unpredictable actions.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted September 05, 2018 08:34 AM |
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Do you ever sleep? 
Okay, so still seems more like a tool for mapmakers to me.
I don't know how it is in multiplayer thou, do people use it?
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted September 05, 2018 10:03 AM |
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on poor and not big maps maybe. otherwise no, since you cannot predict you will need it
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heroes_player
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2018 07:40 PM |
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Good evening
Ballistic is very good tough epic solo scenarios, however.. Even against AI on 'normal maps', I think it is still decent choice. When you invade the AI town, they sometimes tend to sit inside walls on defense mode which will result unnecessarily big loss to your army because of the shooting towers. With ballistics you can at least force the AI to come out or just kill the shooting towers to prevent further losses. If you disagree let me know... 
Btw long time since I have been here, nice to see this forum still being alive even though the game is decades old... H3 is definitely one of best games I have experienced
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted September 06, 2018 07:50 PM |
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heroes_player said:
When you invade the AI town, they sometimes tend to sit inside walls on defense mode which will result unnecessarily big loss to your army because of the shooting towers.
Hmm in my experience it is very rare that AI stays behind the castle walls, it usually happens when I play Fortress and have only low amounts of Lizard Warriors. So I guess that means Ballistics would be useful to Fortress, but even then I don't feel like wasting a skill slot on it. I could also see a point as Stronghold or Tower to get initiative, but overall Ballistics really does'nt feel very important to me.
Indeed Heroes 3 is an excellent game, even after so many years.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted September 12, 2018 05:41 PM |
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Ballistic is not bad skill, remote control of Catapult and ability to cast before arrow towers is huge bonus for custom maps(see RoseCavalier Metaxer Revenge walktrough). Since SOD/WoG AI is dumb we can abuse it like Berserk or Force Field.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted July 18, 2019 07:18 PM |
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Any more opinions about the Ballistics skill?
Do you ever choose this skill against AI and if you do, for which armies??
I still assume the biggest benefit with Ballistics is you get the ability to cast spells first in battle, so that's a least a little bonus for slow towns like Stronghold and Tower, but not so much for Conflux or Castle.
I guess it could also be useful for Dungeon and Rampart if enemy towers are shooting at your dragons and you can't resurrect them, then you can at least destroy the arrow towers faster and avoid damage.
It still seems like an extremely situational skill to me.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 18, 2019 07:48 PM |
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Exploits aside I like it. But mostly for might heroes that go capturing town after town, especially if their faction lacks decent flyers/archers like fortress or stronghold(mostly applies to vanilla where cyclopes require 20 crystal ). Earthquake is not always available and your mana/magical damage may not be enough, in which case taking towns swiftly and painlessly is worthwhile.
Of course, it is not a top tier skill so I can't say I'm picking it often.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 18, 2019 09:44 PM |
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Noobs. Even against the AI, it allows you to cast before the towers shoot. And before any of the AI units, in fact, no matter what their speed is.
You know how fun it is to hit and run with a Ballistics+chain secondary with 1 goblin? well now you know.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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