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| Thread: What makes a good Heroes game |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 28, 2020 03:53 PM |
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What makes a good Heroes game
Good day to everyone! Very recently I resumed playing Heroes VI, which I always loved despite its numerous flaws and issues and it kept me thinking: what makes a good Heroes of Might and Magic game?
I have been a long term fan of Heroes series. I started with III, later I got 5, 4, 6, 2 and 7 in that order. Except for 7(Trial by Fire) which I won at a Moddb New Year steam giveaway and I have not yet installed (for my main pc is too old while I don't have access to my new laptop also thanks to the Covid situation), I have played all other games and have found interesting elements in all these games, as well as elements that make the game less enjoyable.
MAP GAMEPLAY:
In the Ubisoft titles (V-VII) and especially VI the campaign map is very "dense", if I might use that term. Let me illustrate. The more successful games, Heroes II and Heroes III had a very different style. The map feels more like a grand strategy rather than a RPG. Objects have different proportions. The Heroes III map feels more like that of upcoming Crusader Kings III or Knights of Honor. While Heroes VII tried to solve this, it stills feels messy. I think that, if there is going to be a future Heroes VIII with a 3d campaign map, they should take inspiration from Grand Strategy titles as well as the alpha version of Heroes V, which had the rightly proportional map objects and style: 1 2. Such style would also require less graphical work for the team
Another aspect that needs treatment are the armies. I felt that Heroes IV was revolutionary in its ability to have parties without Heroes or many Heroes in the same party. I will discuss below, when we talk of the towns and creatures, that I think the best monster system would be a III-IV-VI.
ART STYLE & TOWN THEMES:
From the Archangel vs Zydar loading screen to the knights in Heroes III with their greek-style breastplate incorporated into medieval suits of armor, the art style was based on Classical Antiquity and Renaissance. Monsters also "respected" their mythological description more than in Ubisoft titles. Ubisoft style, from V-VII is more glamorous (Haven), more warcraft-ish (Orcs and Demons) and tries to be more eye-striking at first glance but at a second look is inferior to the Heroes III one.
Another aspect I want to touch in this sense is the Town Theme. In Heroes III one town can have creatures from different cultures and mythologies but artistically conceived in a way to fit the overall theme of the town. For example, the Tower incorporates Gremlins, which are a 1920s belief of british RAF pilots, with Gargoyles, Golems of Jewish myth, Genies of Roman and Arabian beliefs, Nagas of Indian and Titans of Greek mythology. All of them designed in a way to fit perfectly with each others' style, the town overall theme as well as the Snow environment.
In Ubisoft games, things are more this-is-that. Nagas are Japanese, Orcs are Mongol(5)/Mesoamerican(6)/Arab(7), every Duchy is the equivalent of a real-world European culture and so on. Necropolis are green themed spider worshipers with (6-7) Mesopotamian style. Probably the only (somewhat) good design in the series is the Fortress in Heroes VII. Even in the case of the Fortress, I like how Defenders in Heroes V have Persian-style shields and feel that the Lava Elementals in VII would better been something else (not necessarily norse mythology).
Furthermore, the current Inferno concept has been OVERUSED in III-VI. I think, if there is ever going to be a Heroes VIII it should be set in a world which is NOT Ashan and where there are no Demons in the religious sense of the word. I think that the Towns (redesigned as I will explain it below) which deserve to make it to the next title of Heroes of Might and Magic are the following:
Castle/Haven - Human town. Grasslands terrain. Yes, mostly medieval (somewhat in style of H2-H4 and NWC H5) but with small elements of classical antiquity there. I think that Gargoyles probably fit in this town more than in others.
Rampart/Sylvan - Nature town. Elves are part but not all the town. Also other creatures such as Pixies, Satyrs, Unicorns etc. Faerie Dragons and Phoenixes as Champion choices.
Tower/Academy - Magic-users town. Desert terrain. Pretty good concept introduced in Heroes II. I think it must go on. However let's not cross the line with golems and constructs. Titans fit in this faction but as living not as machines.
Creatures: Gnolls(werehyenas are part of 1001 nights tales), Imps(wizards familiars), Golems, Desert Nomads, Wizards, Titans, Behemoths. I'd also put Lizardmen here (core, as Wizards' creation).
Asylum(Dungeon) - Warlock town. Swamp terrain. Some of the current "Inferno" creatures such as Succubus or Efreet could fit here together with some of the H3 fortress units like the Hydra. The H6 concept of Lurker/Beholder would fit here but renamed to "Argus" maybe? Other creatures: Bandits, Goblins, Dark Elves, Dragons.
Necropolis - The theme is that of Heroes III: gothic horror. Grey, grim, no colorful lights like H5-7 or very few and blood-red colored. One or two ancient egyptian themed units like the Mummies(core or elite) and Anubites(Champion) fit here too. Wendigos might be a good addition to this town while I'd suggest removing Black Knights and Liches (too much LotR and D&D out there). Zombies better renamed to Revenant (the african concept of zombie is something else).
Stronghold - "Barbarians" town. Snow terrain. Viking and snow themed. Human-race town but Ogres and Giants(Jotuns) too. While it's true that stronghold is rather norse/north-european-themed (due to snow) I think that the Yeti and maybe even Cyclops could find their place here quite well. Other creatures Wulfheadnar(werewolves), Wyverns. I think Orcs are so over-used in fantasy that they probably shouldn't be in H8, besides, the italian "orco" is more like a different spelling of the english "ogre", while in Tolkien's works Orcs=Goblins. I think orc is an ambigous creature H8 might avoid.
Sanctuary - Pirate, Naga and Sea monster town. No real terrain but something special is that Sanctuary towns could be also found as sea map objects. I like the Heroes VI map object with those pools and waterfalls looking like zen fountain but I think that the new Sanctuary should be in a mixed Indian, Ancient Greek, SE Asian, Japanese style where Indian and Ancient Greek predominate (because of Nagas and Tritons).
Creatures: Pirates, Kappas, Mermaids, Tritons, Gorgons(Medusas with legs like H4 but also winged), Nagas, Cetus(H4 sea monster) and Sea Serpent.
Factory/Forge - "Mechanical Town". Wasteland terrain (like H2 wizard or the new HotA town). It's a town of Gremlins, Dwarves, Fire Giants and war machines however in the style of Da Vinci and his inventions (wooden tanks and very simplistic helicopters) - otherwise it won't make sense having a "Tech" town agains "medieval" ones.
A total of 8 towns is ideal for Heroes games, Restoration of Erathia and Tribes of the East have 8 towns each. The first 6 which are the most classical Heroes of Might and Magic towns since H2 could come with the base game while Sanctuary & Factory/Forge can come with DLCs/Expansions. What should be done carefully is that the towns(except Castle) should NOT have more than 3 creatures of the same race. And even if they have 3 at least 1 of them should be Elite so that the player is given the possibility to choose another (see below). I can make lineups for all the towns to illustrate better how lineups are to be made in a successful Heroes game.
HERO & CREATURE SYSTEM:
Various Heroes games have had various creature numbers / towns and various creature systems. I think a hybrid system could be made between the systems of Heroes III, IV and VI. My idea is this: each army has 7 slots. Heroes work like in IV where they can occupy any slot (even all 7 of them could be filled with heroes). Or you can have armies without heroes. Like in Heroes IV.
Like in Heroes II, from each town you can produce 7 creatures at a time which are (like in H6): 3 Core, 3 Elite and 1 Champion. HOWEVER, when it comes to elite and champion creatures you have to choose between two alternatives, again like Heroes IV. So each Town has a total of 11 creatures: 3 Core, 6 Elite and 2 Champion.
As for Heroes, they have 2 classes/town and they get advanced classes with skills like in Heroes IV, however in battle they fight mounted on their town mount (almost always a horse).
TO BE CONTINUED...
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 28, 2020 03:57 PM |
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Wait, didn't such a thread exist already? (oh, well, only its name seems to mean something else. This thread is about another H8 game idea)
Well, the dwarves in Ubi HoMM are totally inspired by Norse mythology (I might have misunderstood that part with "not necessarily norse mythology").
Edit: I still need the demons to beat the crap out of them!
Haven is totally ok, but we, or I, at least need Angels (either the classical or female ones from Ubi).
Sylvan is same guy as always.
I loved snow Tower way more than indian desert Tower, or even H2 desert Tower. Also, geez, imps? I mean, I don't want to have such crap in that faction (not just because they have low stats).
Dungeon; I know someone who would hate her favorite faction to become an Asylum for filthy Succubus, dark entities and such. It's not me, though, since I still want to beat the crap outta Inferno.
Necropolis is butchered. I totally doubt anyone would accept african, etc. creatures instead, while removing the liches and the knights.
Stronghold seems reasonable. Orcs with proper implementation are very good (King's Bounty).
Will we get anime waifu nagas in H8 Sanctuary?
Factory seems ok too.
As neutrals, will the Azures return? They were even planned for the so successful H5.
Anyway, for the overall part: H5 and H3 excelled by containing as many towns as possible with as many races. Even H5 was gonna contain Sanctuary, but the contract expired by then  . I think all these towns (maybe 1 less) would be ok with the base game. In my opinion, towns should be ~90% similar to H3, a reason why H5 was so successful (Dungeon & Sylvan are exceptions).
As a side joke, I hope this isn't a petition/suggestions list for Ubi, right ?
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted April 28, 2020 05:14 PM |
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Two the same themes by one month?!
Heroes formula
Cant said another than in this thread.
Maybe another title? My (...) vision of Heroes?!
Dont understand me bad. Im very happy that people play and discuss about best games ever :0)))
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 28, 2020 05:22 PM |
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Hahah no they're not a list of suggestions for Ubi... I don't think Ubi would get them anyway... It's more like my point of view of what made the previous Heroes games successful and how could these be incorporated into a future heroes game...
FirePaladin said:
Edit: I still need the demons to beat the crap out of them!
...
Dungeon; I know someone who would hate her favorite faction to become an Asylum for filthy Succubus, dark entities and such. It's not me, though, since I still want to beat the crap outta Inferno.
That's exactly my point! Heroes of Might and Magic has become too cliche' by being All vs Demons. Yeah I was thinking Angels would still be in Castle/Haven.
Thing is, I got this idea from the Faceless story in Heroes VI and a bit from the history of how religions developed, that today are considered "Demons" a myriad of beings which before the advent of modern religions were not necessarily considered malevolent. So while the new heroes would have Angels, their role would be as protectors of their followers but not of others.
FirePaladin said:
Will we get anime waifu nagas in H8 Sanctuary?
I was hoping no... as I said Sanctuary is a beautiful concept butchered by making almost every unit of it "japanese". I was hoping to combine style elements from India + SE Asia + Japan + Ancient Greece + Oceania to create something unique. But mostly India when it comes to Naga as specific race.
I haven't really made lineups for towns but since you're interested I'll come up with something.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 28, 2020 05:30 PM |
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Baronus said:
Two the same themes by one month?!
Heroes formula
Cant said another than in this thread.
Maybe another title? My (...) vision of Heroes?!
Dont understand me bad. Im very happy that people play and discuss about best games ever :0)))
Not really... the other I think concentrates mostly on the sense of progression and sense of challenge (the AI).
What I'm trying to prove in my thread is that the fundamental thing with Ubisoft games is that they never really got properly the spirit a Heroes of Might and Magic game should have starting from the very art style of the map in a scenario.
EDIT: Also that Heroes IV is actually a great step forward but it was poorly handled.
P.S: offtopic, Baronus your DP is from an anime right? I watched it when I was a kid I think... Today I've been encountering a lot of stuff that remind me of my childhood...
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 28, 2020 06:31 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
FirePaladin said:
Edit: I still need the demons to beat the crap out of them!
...
Dungeon; I know someone who would hate her favorite faction to become an Asylum for filthy Succubus, dark entities and such. It's not me, though, since I still want to beat the crap outta Inferno.
That's exactly my point! Heroes of Might and Magic has become too cliche' by being All vs Demons. Yeah I was thinking Angels would still be in Castle/Haven.
Thing is, I got this idea from the Faceless story in Heroes VI and a bit from the history of how religions developed, that today are considered "Demons" a myriad of beings which before the advent of modern religions were not necessarily considered malevolent. So while the new heroes would have Angels, their role would be as protectors of their followers but not of others.
Wasn't it all VS the bad guys from the beginning  ? Only Ubi introduced that, and even then, we had tons of wars with Necropolis.
And well, by me only the "genuine" demons are demons (which include Kreegans, if we're gonna talk about HoMM), everything else (Faceless and countless other entities) aren't.
The entire Ashan is somewhat cliche anyway, lol. Oh, and by Inferno I meant faction. The faction and their creatures I want to beat.
Lord_Immortal said:
FirePaladin said:
Will we get anime waifu nagas in H8 Sanctuary?
I was hoping no... as I said Sanctuary is a beautiful concept butchered by making almost every unit of it "japanese". I was hoping to combine style elements from India + SE Asia + Japan + Ancient Greece + Oceania to create something unique. But mostly India when it comes to Naga as specific race.
I haven't really made lineups for towns but since you're interested I'll come up with something.
Huh, we had them in H3 and they are my fav unit together with the Titans... Nah, this is just my opinion and you're free to develop your own ideas as you want ! But what bothered me at H4 was that they lost their beauty. And in H6 they were some frail ladies behind a staff.
Lord_Immortal said:
What I'm trying to prove in my thread is that the fundamental thing with Ubisoft games is that they never really got properly the spirit a Heroes of Might and Magic game should have starting from the very art style of the map in a scenario.
That's true. H5 managed that (well, not entirely) only by keeping the factions somewhat the same and the overall game mechanics too. HoMM should have been its own style, not Warcraft or anything else.
Talking about styles, remember King's Bounty (2008-2015)? A new team is making KB2, and they are going the same path as Ubi; from rich, beautiful fantasy to some kind of The Witcher rip-off with totally different mechanics.
Edit: What do you think about 3D HoMM? I say that, handled well, it could work. A style similar to "new" KB might work with a 3D H3, in my opinion.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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zydar
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 12:26 AM |
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NWC take great risk when change winning formula of homm 3 into new formula in Homm 4, when resource & time limited, because 3DO financial problem
They try to simplified some diversity, richeness in HOM3 aspects, but failed
Maybe if NWC take more safe way like just change HOMM 3 2d system into psedo 3d and & bring some improvement, there will be more chance to maintenance succes
If HOMM 4 have more development time & resource, i think the revolutioned way of HOMM 4 will be succes too
I enjoy Map Gameplay in Homm 2-4, but feel bored in Homm 5, i dont play 6,7
everthing just like to be visited, explored, every item like to be picked, every creature like to be recruited/fighted,
every edge of the map feel like table top game. Simple but have richeness adventure
I don't like Town naming since HoMM 4 and up: Asylum, Haven, Preserve, Sylvan
I prefer naming Town like in Homm 3: Castle, Dungeon, Rampart, because can bring more flexibilty & diversity in town creatures aligmnent
What NWC have done since Homm 1-4, they make all art theme harmonious,balance, fun, but not too childish / too mature, suit of all ages, everlasting
They have own style, no warcraft, no warhammer, etc.
Thats make everyone from different background love it.
I agree homm game have total of 8 towns, and every creatures must be upgrade, because everyting compare to HOMM 3
I like Heroes progression in Homm 4, after learn some skill / magic, they become new type of heroes, so we can have many heroes class type
Yes Ashan is Cliche, so back to old Universe again, at least its have owns unique lore
So What makes a good Heroes game? first have owns style, design for all ages, all background, then everyting compare to HOMM 3
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 07:26 AM |
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CrAshan is completly another world. Should not be named MM and all would be correct.
Probably most important is... JVC! To make true MM :0))) It doesnt mean that he must do everything from A to Z. But lore, immersion world depth. Of course for eg. narration epic details must be someone like Terry Ray for graphic Tracy Ivata April Lee etc. for music... who :0))))) You know! Of course always can be new talented artist.
Now we have world depth as you can see in Creature Quest. So we can build briliant gameplay:
A lot of unique heroes.
A lot of unique units.
A lot of unique spells.
A lot of unique towns.
Good offensive AI.
Wonderfull music.
Beauty graphic.
Random generation.
Good editor.
Easy to moddnig.
etc.
It can be build by new people but using this formula.
Worst thing is something like warhammersiation no mangaism no mmoisation etc.
MM must have own spirit.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 29, 2020 01:42 PM |
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Baronus said:
MM must have own spirit.
Exactly! That was my point. M&M had its own spirit which was lost after Ubisoft took over development.
@zydar
I prefer town naming like in Heroes III I just put H3Name/H4Name just to be more exact. This except for Asylum because I was thinking that maybe a 9th town called Inferi(not Inferno) or Dungeon might be added. Something whose native terrain is the Underworld.
However I was having difficulty to imagine separate Dungeon and Asylum towns, that's why I opted for one Asylum. But I will do this: I will try to build lineups and see if we can have both Asylum and Dungeon in a satisfying way. If yes, I will update the previous post and increase the nr of towns to 9, which is the maximum nr a Heroes game has ever had (Armageddon's Blade).
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 05:43 PM |
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Ooh, cool point about the strategy map layout vs. the RPG one!
A couple points:
1. The thing that made Heroes 3 so successful and so critically acclaimed was the great combat micro. If the point is grand strategy and economic management, Alpha Centauri was much better at that. I think a fantasy grand strategy game could be cool (think EU4 but there's also magical research, deals with the devil, thee fae court, etc.), but it would be so, so different from Heroes; for one, the tactical combat would detract from such a game.
2. If the idea is to make it more strategy-like, then maybe all the POIs, including towns, should be a single square, as in Civ/Alpha Centauri? It would make it visually even clearer that this is a map of a big region. Maaaaaaaaybe towns could expand visually so that most are 1*1, bigger (city hall+) are 1*2, and the biggest (capitol or equivalent, even if more than 1/player) are 2*2?
[I'm trying to steer this thread in a direction of talking about strategy elements and the overland map, since there are other recent threads talking about factions and lineups.]
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 29, 2020 07:04 PM |
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In my opinion, they should just be similar to those in H3: simple. Because that's what makes a HoMM game HoMM.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 29, 2020 10:02 PM |
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Yes but I feel that some of the later titles brought interesting developments to the series:
Heroes IV brought alternate creature choices
Heroes V brought perks and unique faction skills.
Heroes VI brought Core-Elite-Champion system which offers more possibilities compared to the 7-level system.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 29, 2020 10:04 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
Yes but I feel that some of the later titles brought interesting developments to the series:
Heroes IV brought alternate creature choices
Heroes V brought perks and unique faction skills.
Heroes VI brought Core-Elite-Champion system which offers more possibilities compared to the 7-level system.
Yeah, I agree, but we shouldn't just totally transform HoMM into some trade-game or anything of sorts (like Master of Orion), that's what I meant.
I like 7 tiers more, though.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 29, 2020 10:27 PM |
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The Core-Elite-Champion system is actually more limiting IMO. At least in the way H6 did it, it sort of made every faction play the same. Each faction had a tank, a shooter, a dps is their core and elite tiers, for example. I think a system like the one I've used in my proposal threads is much better. A "basic" unit that acts as the base creature for the faction (peasants, imps, skeletons, goblins, etc), and then 4 core creatures where you can build 3 of them per town, 3 elites where you can build 2, 3 exceptional where you can build 1, and 2 champions where you can build 1.
The end result is you have 7 creatures following what is essentially an evolution of H7's Core/StrongCore/Elite/StrongElite/Champion system, with your army being composed of 1 "weak core" 3 core 2 elite 1 strong elite 1 champion, picked from a total of 13 possible units(preferably with alternate upgrades) forcing you to plan your army in advance while also making it that each faction has several viable playstyles, which would hopefully fix the staleness aspect from H6.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 10:49 PM |
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IMO the series started going downhill when they started making the games in 3D. So, if anyone would ever make a new game to the series, it should be done in 2D. Not all games work in 3D enviroment, it only adds unnecessary amount of complexity in this case and because of that makes the game not as fun and slower to play.
However - and I'm saying this as a fan of the series - making a sequal for Homm series would be nightmare. The existing games are very solid already, and fans have added so much stuff over the year to the games. How would anyone even compete with that - someone would always be disapointed: "why they didn't creature X" or "why town X looks like this."
Simply put, the best games of the series have already been done.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 29, 2020 11:03 PM |
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Hard disagree on both points. There's still a ton of innovation to be done that HoTA and 5.5 can't do without completely changing the base game. And the 3D graphics allow for cool stuff to be done on the overworld map like in H7.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 11:51 PM |
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I like 2D in strategy; Brood War is clunky as snow, but I like a rectangular rather than trapezoidal map. And the most recent Civ games still can't hit the map size of Alpha Centauri because in 3D big maps consume too many computing resources.
FirePaladin said:
In my opinion, they should just be similar to those in H3: simple. Because that's what makes a HoMM game HoMM.
Heroes 3 was great in 1999. So were Alpha Centauri and Starcraft. But literally within a year, Total War would be released, and nowadays we also have Paradox's grand strategy games and Endless Legend to get ideas from.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 29, 2020 11:53 PM |
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Rimgrabber said:
. And the 3D graphics allow for cool stuff to be done on the overworld map like in H7.
Well, if we look at Homm5 for example, Ubisoft did try to mimic and improve Homm3 with almost anything, and still most of the community favors Homm3. Sure, Homm5 didn't get everything right, but I would still argue that if it was done in 2D, players would have liked it more, and it could have overshadowed Homm3 to some extend. I can understand the developers' deside in going 3D, but it actually doesn't support this type of game very well. In homm3 you can easily see everything you need, but this isn't true in Homm5, and the constant turning of camera ruins the experience.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 12:10 AM |
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Thing is: you can still make it 3D and be okay. Now, if the devs made the camera have an angle different than in H3 and stuff, that's totally another problem and has nothing to do with a 3D graphical style. To be honest, a 2D H5 wouldn't have been that nice for me, at least.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 12:57 AM |
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FirePaladin said:
Thing is: you can still make it 3D and be okay. Now, if the devs made the camera have an angle different than in H3 and stuff, that's totally another problem and has nothing to do with a 3D graphical style.
Well, you cannot make real 3D with still camera, so that's that. You can have 3D elements and even fake the 3D to some extend, but IMO that doesn't count.
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