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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 05:44 AM |
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artu said:
Except that the success only came after secularization, meaning when they started to put a distance between those values and the law, science, ethics etc...
Yeah! I said most of that in the next post but thanks for enlightening us.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 10, 2020 06:10 AM |
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Yeah, I notice now you mention some of it, too. What’s the big deal?
I just didnt read them before because they were replies to Baronus and I usually skip his posts.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 07:25 AM |
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In US we have black privilege In Europe colored privilege. They have big social transfers without work. And points in education only for skin color. In fact black in his countries of the world has 25$ income per month in US 2500$!!! 10.000%! 2475$ is US black priviledge. Only for living in US!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 10:01 AM |
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Galaad said:
For the ones that aren't corrupt they cannot do much, but I think JJ was more speaking on the philosophy rather than on the actual practices.
What I mean is, that in the US, basically every opinion is axed until just one each is left for each party. As a politician, if you want to realistically have a chance to participate in any decision making you must be either Rep or Dem which means, the respective parties are home to a broad spectrum of more or less different opinions.
But in the end only one opinion will be left, and that will be an opinion that will be hard-fought and hard-dealt for. Everyone needs support, and in order to get support you have to compromise and ofer something in a quid-pro-quo. Which means, the actual people who sit in any office have a lot of obligations, otherwise someone else would sit there.
This gets different with a different system. If you look, for example, at the Danish Parliament, there are currently representatives of SIXTEEN parties. Not only does that make it easier to vote what is actually nearest to the respective voter, it also makes it easier to be part of a party with roughly the same opinion on a lot of things, and lastly - various points are actually heard, even if you have just one representative, so at least discussion is lively.
What I want to say is, that the system in the US might be more prone to what looks like corruption (and probably IS, in many cases).
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 10, 2020 11:22 AM |
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It all depends on what you consider inheritance to be. First of all, this is from the age of the civil war and before for slavery. So any individual southern white landowner from that time has had their inheritance divided up by the average number of kids since then. You can count some interest on that and compare that to the average number of slaves they had and their average descendants. The end result should be in the ballpark for some months pay owed to each black person. A wholly slave descendant black person. Of which there are very few I’d bet. Most have mixed heritage of some kind and you’d have to prove how much. Some black people will probably end up on the paying side. Also people immigrated to the US after civil war and their families without links to the families that came before are not subject to paying the reparations. Again, you’d have to prove this too. Technically it’s not undoable but it’s more expensive than what the reparations are going to be so it will have to be paid by the US, not the individuals. Are the benefits worth it? Economically no way in hell. Ethically? That depends on your answer to what you consider inheritance to be. Legally? NO, at the time slavery was legal so you reparations for that are not legal.
So you have to consider it from some other perspective as to why you would want to do this. Was racism illegal from constitutional point of view? You might have a point there. Then this does not only apply to blacks but also asian, mexican, indian, polish, irish, getmans, etc. etc. Also the ones responsible for this are not white people but the states, counties or the US government. So even blacks will have to pay the reparations through taxes in some form. Whether the net effect would be positive to them is of course dependent on how poor they are. So this would, in fact, simply be a transfer of funds from the rich, to the poor, excluding families who haven’t encountered racism(probably not very many, maybe english french spanish dutch jewish families of pure descent?).
This is in no way economically reasonable, much simpler to give everyone a thousand dollars in hand without all the background checks. Legally this is doable, albeit the end result is probably not what you think it’s going to be after the dust settles(some blacks will pay white people, this is inevitable.) Ethically, if you do this as a one time thing? Up to debate. It is certainly more right than positive discrimination in education, etc. but is it still right after all the effort that will go into it? Probably not. You would be stressing most of the population economically to support a tiny, tiny portion of it. The gains get heavily outweighed by the effort this undertaking requires.
Politically? Oh hell yes. In current climate you’ll get all the votes you ever wished for from the stupid who don’t realise what it means.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 11:57 AM |
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JoonasTo said:
Politically? Oh hell yes. In current climate you’ll get all the votes you ever wished for from the stupid who don’t realise what it means.
Thanks, excellent break down. This conclusion I already come to it a few pages ago. All this fuse only serves the Democratic Party, not the people that should benefit from it.
artu said:
Yeah, I notice now you mention some of it, too. What’s the big deal?
None, except I could use some help from a scholar...
artu said:
I just didnt read them before because they were replies to Baronus and I usually skip his posts.
But now I know why I can but give you a thumbs up, it saves you a lot of time and probably some research.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 12:03 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
All this fuse only serves the Democratic Party, not the people that should benefit from it.
Case in point: go to blacklivesmatter.com and click "donate" at the bottom. You'll see that your money goes straight to the dnc through actblue. For more information once you're on the actblue site, click "terms and conditions".
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 12:18 PM |
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So, you're saying it will be directed to the pockets of the billionaires and corporations in the next tax cuts... You really live in Lala Land.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 02:37 PM |
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Anything i would post in response to the endless denials of reality from you people would only incite the biased mods enforcing the rules here at hc on whoever they don't like, to penalyze me for being angry with you. So, i quit. After the night i had dealing with your kind irl, i'm done with you all entirely.
I'm off to play video games and ignore this world beyond redemption or reason that your kind had a direct hand in helping create.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 03:03 PM |
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Man, I'm totally agreeing with you. I do believe this money will help advance the DNC agenda (more tax cuts for the rich) and not the cause they pretend to be in favor and that you live in a country where the rulers are completely full of bullsh!t. The problem is, you expect so much to be attacked you are defending from my support.
I wrote this in the first page:
This is just more pandering, can't go anywhere. At the same time this conversation is happening, there are white, black and latino people that went unemployed or bankrupted due to the Covid crisis and Nancy Antoinette is sticking them the middle finger, while bailing out corporations and lobbyists.
I'm not saying there isn't systemic racism in America, I'm saying this is just propaganda from the same privileged people that wont allow for UBI or UHC, something that would help all this minorities and the great unspoken majority, the poor class. Once the election period is over you wont ear a word about this and the reason you ear about it now is precisely because they know they can forget it as soon as they get the votes on the ballot.
And I haven't changed my point of view.
P.S. While I admit my previous post can be read both ways, unfortunately I didn't thought about that. But context matters and you had it...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 03:54 PM |
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Should I sue Sweden? Perhaps if they didn't raid Poland at 1655, it wouldn't be such a craphole to live in.
Damn Swedes, ready your money. Reparations, here I come 
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 10, 2020 04:12 PM |
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IF there was a united Europe (which there isn't because people are reverting to tribal pre-War mode), one of the goals would be to fix the inequity throughout the continent.
Inequity negatively affects everybody, including the rich & affluent. The more people that become more economically independent, the less bandwidth that is spent on survival and short-term thinking, which drags down the entire society & the entire economy.
Some American wealth was gained through slavery, but this primarily affected a small percentage of people and it encouraged stupidity because it was steady and easy money. It's the same reason the Russian economy kind of sucks despite its massive potential. It's a resource economy that doesn't force people to be creative.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 10, 2020 05:06 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 17:12, 10 Jun 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
IF there was a united Europe (which there isn't because people are reverting to tribal pre-War mode), one of the goals would be to fix the inequity throughout the continent.
It's not united because it got too big. Plus West Europe is leaning more towards left and East towards right. Besides, America also seems to have an identity crisis lately 
Blizzardboy said:
Inequity negatively affects everybody, including the rich & affluent. The more people that become more economically independent, the less bandwidth that is spent on survival and short-term thinking, which drags down the entire society & the entire economy.
Yep. people tried to experiment with various ideas. Socialism, capitalism. Nothing seems to work long-term.
Blizzardboy said:
Some American wealth was gained through slavery, but this primarily affected a small percentage of people and it encouraged stupidity because it was steady and easy money.
Yep, rest of your Americanon ancestors made their wealth on exploitation of nature, resources and Natives.
Blizzardboy said:
It's the same reason the Russian economy kind of sucks despite its massive potential. It's a resource economy that doesn't force people to be creative.
Although we Polish people historically aren't quite fond of Russians and vice-versa, labeling them as uncreative is pretty tactless. It depends on sectors of economy. There are a lot of very talented people there, especially in the IT departament which is synonimous with progress. It's a big country in which Imperialism was usually the only way to keep things together, it was basically the good of many instead of individual, and Russian people in many cases cannot help that they have this ingrained in them. And somehow this system survived to present day.
Don't mind me, I'm answering generalisation with generalisation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 10, 2020 05:16 PM |
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Russians not creative? Take HC as a first example and compare. Russians = major mods, codding platforms, game-play analysis, graphics and so on. They all speak a fluent English. Basically 90% of proposed material here is from Russians. In Russia, the percentage of kids being active and having an outstanding talent in arts is on top with South Korea and China only.
What is definition of being creative then, toilets and special pronouns for gender fluid?
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Era II mods and utilities
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 05:47 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Russians not creative? Take HC as a first example and compare. Russians = major mods, codding platforms, game-play analysis, graphics and so on. They all speak a fluent English. Basically 90% of proposed material here is from Russians.
 I agree. I'm not informed enough about other matters but Russians and Polishes are the most hands on in this community and that's volunteer work. When I think on the coordination effort made by the HotA team I feel mesmerized.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 10, 2020 05:48 PM |
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Easy and steady money creates uncreativity. This is (partially) why the Russian economy kind of sucks. It's why it has been 80 years and WW2 nostalgia is talked about as though it happened 5 years ago. It ought to be the world's 3rd largest economy but this drags it down.
Slavery creates short-term benefits for the profiteers but the entire country is worse-off due to the massive waste in potential in the slave population and in the profiteers continued reliance on it. The slaves are kept ignorant and undeveloped for obvious reasons but it also inhibits the slavers when they can just get easy money on the backs of people. In the long-term, everybody loses versus an equitable society.
Ottomon versus Europe. What did Ottomon have at first? Aggressive conquest + huge slave population to create massive empire. In the long-term, it just made the empire retarded and dilapidated because such a large chunk of the economy was centered around exploiting and enslaving human beings in some way or another + letting its female population go to waste. It took a long time but it was eventually obliterated by Europe which was buoyed on social reform and more equability. Zero equability will kill a country.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 10, 2020 06:33 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:39, 10 Jun 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
Easy and steady money creates uncreativity. This is (partially) why the Russian economy kind of sucks. It's why it has been 80 years and WW2 nostalgia is talked about as though it happened 5 years ago. It ought to be the world's 3rd largest economy but this drags it down.
Easy money for whom? You're probably talking about those oligarchs or people related to oil/gas industries. Russia is suspended by huge debt that it got from 90s industrial and agricultural crash and centralization of economy. Plus it constantly sanctioned by the West due to politics.
Like everywhere, life and economy is underdeveloped outside of big cities, especially becasue Russia has the biggest landmass of all countries in the World.
Blizzardboy said:
Slavery creates short-term benefits for the profiteers but the entire country is worse-off due to the massive waste in potential in the slave population and in the profiteers continued reliance on it.
Slavery in the scale of the last 400 years is a thing of the past. Economy simply does not work that way anymore unless we're talking Muslim fundamentalists slavery or semi-slavery (economic slavery) like in China/India cus low production cost. Ofc we're not talking about corporate and or bank credit/consumption "slavery".
Blizzardboy said:
Ottomon versus Europe. What did Ottomon have at first? Aggressive conquest + huge slave population to create massive empire. In the long-term, it just made the culture retarded and delipadated because such a large chunk of the economy was centered around exploiting and enslaving human beings in some way or another. It took a long time but it was eventually obliterated by Europe which was buoyed on social reform and more equability. Zero equability will kill a country.
Direct cause of Ottoman Empire "fail":
- agrarian oriented economy
- too big (most empires fall when they're too big)
- under-education (but we are talking specialists like doctors, scientists)
- machinations of it's neighbours (rebellions, England and France activity in North Africa etc)
- rivalry with Russia
- allied with the loosing side in WWI (Germany)
Blizz, what is the point of your tyrades? We all know slavery was/is bad and we're sorry for Afro-American people's plight. Even if we wanted to lessen the facts it will be shoved into white peoples faces until the end of times (like Nazi Germany for Germans).
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 10, 2020 06:37 PM |
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Germany actually did/does something about its Nazi past though to reform the country, which is what America STILL needs to do and hasn't properly done. There need to be programs in place and these programs should disproportionately benefit blacks who have been under the boot of the country for a long time.
Pouting in a corner and denying the existence of racial injustice despite massive evidence to the contrary doesn't actually fix anything.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 10, 2020 06:41 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:41, 10 Jun 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
Germany actually did/does something about its Nazi past though to reform the country, which is what America STILL needs to do and hasn't properly done.
Yes they did and do a lot. Unfortunately, as in many European countries nowadays, right-wing nationalism is on a steady raise again.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2020 06:54 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Slavery creates short-term benefits for the profiteers but the entire country is worse-off due to the massive waste in potential in the slave population and in the profiteers continued reliance on it.
I'M NOT DEFENDING SLAVERY HERE!!
Since you decided to bring the Ottoman empire...
If it is true that the american model of slavery kept most them in ignorance and poverty and their owners stagnate, that model doesn't necessarily apply to slavery as a hole.
For sure the greek paidogogos were more educated for their time then most modern red-necks for ours.
Sparta model of society was highly reliant on slaves (about 10 for each freemen) but lasted almost 1000 years. Ok, to discourage the revolts all citizens were trained in martial arts from a young age, creating the mythic spartan warriors (Spartans, what is your profession? AU!! AU!!).
Slavery in ancient Rome played an important role in society and the economy. Besides manual labor, slaves performed many domestic services, and might be employed at highly skilled jobs and professions. Accountants and physicians were often slaves. Slaves of Greek origin in particular might be highly educated. Unskilled slaves, or those sentenced to slavery as punishment, worked on farms, in mines, and at mills.
Slaves were considered property under Roman law and had no legal personhood. Most slaves would never be freed. Unlike Roman citizens, they could be subjected to corporal punishment, sexual exploitation (prostitutes were often slaves), torture and summary execution. Over time, however, slaves gained increased legal protection, including the right to file complaints against their masters. (from Wikipedia)
Would like to add on my own that free slaves were often the most trusted advisers of emperors.
So, the idea that slavery condemns a society to a short term prosperity that is infallibly followed by an economic and cultural crisis doesn't seam based on historical facts.
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This thread is pages long: 
