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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 02:42 PM |
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I can sorta see your point but then I’m lost again if you’re gonna say SoC’s base units are not mostly redundant. That’s inconsistent observations imo. As you mentioned, not only are the base units given much lower stats but they also lack an ability a lot of the time. When have you really used the base version of the Faey spirit for anything other than essence gain? What makes the footmen more useable than lvl5 creatures in h3? Most base melee units are awful to use in combat until they get upgraded, and some still need research to shine. The low movement across the board really helps make them struggle.
If h3 went to soft on most upgrades, SoC did the opposite and went too hard.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 03:31 PM |
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It's a question of what you can (or have to) actually use. Eventually, given you have the ressources and the gold, you'll grade everything up. But in Homm 3 which unupgraded units do you actually USE for fighting?
In SoC you MUST use them. Eventually, you'll grade them up - but everything you have produced up to that point must be bought unupgraded and then upgraded for +50% cost.
Example: you will use minstrels. They buff your units and give you essences. Sure, the upgrade is better in every regard, but it cost Glimmerweave which you need for the Faeys.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 04:33 PM |
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No hard difficulty yet. How, sorry for this, hard can it be to implement some sort of harder AI? This was marketed and advertised primarily as a single-player experience. Right now it feels like a demo.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 05:38 PM |
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I'm afraid that the criteria you are using to evaluate creatures aren't clear to me. Both H3 Archers and H5 Gremlins shoot, neither has another special ability, and both are grossly inferior to their upgraded counterpart, yet Gremlins are usable while Archers are not? I just don't see it.
I would argue that, unless we are talking about the weakest level 1 units, they are all usable.
JollyJoker said:
And hanging back or assaulting isn't a matter of your creatures, first and foremost - it's a matter of comparison between armies and heroes and whether you can support what you have with spells.
Comparison between armies is a comparison of creatures. You can compensate for this somewhat with spells, but not having a high-level shooter in your army makes it much less likely that you'll be able to hang back and engage an enemy army at range.
JollyJoker said:
If you attack a town the monks are pretty useless.
They can shoot. Pikemen, Swordsmen and Cavaliers can literally do nothing until the walls come down. I've defended many towns against stronger armies that couldn't engage until it was too late, and lost sieges to high-level ranged units that inflicted damage at a higher rate than my army could afford.
JollyJoker said:
Redundancies in SoC? What would you suggest?
SoC has to be evaluated differently because you can build other dwellings in the place of those you don't like.
With Arleon, I saw no good reason to use Militia or Knights. Rangers covered Militia's role, and a combination of Footmen and Horned Ones substituted for Knights (it helped that Fists of Order were prohibitively expensive).
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 06:57 PM |
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Gandalf196 said:
No hard difficulty yet. How, sorry for this, hard can it be to implement some sort of harder AI?
They said that the whole team is going on vacation during July.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 09:40 PM |
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Groovy said:
I'm afraid that the criteria you are using to evaluate creatures aren't clear to me. Both H3 Archers and H5 Gremlins shoot, neither has another special ability, and both are grossly inferior to their upgraded counterpart, yet Gremlins are usable while Archers are not? I just don't see it.
Err, no. Gremlin upgrade doesn't gain damage, just initiative (which does translate into more damage, yes, but you can do the simple stuff with Gremlins quite fine, and you need the ore for everything else of interest in the Academy. In HoMM 3 Castle, though, the upgrade basically doubles the ranged damage output. Archers, on the other hand are just a liability - you can't lose any (you need them as Marksmen), but in case you can't upgrade them you are better off with just Pikemen.
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JollyJoker said:
And hanging back or assaulting isn't a matter of your creatures, first and foremost - it's a matter of comparison between armies and heroes and whether you can support what you have with spells.
Comparison between armies is a comparison of creatures. You can compensate for this somewhat with spells, but not having a high-level shooter in your army makes it much less likely that you'll be able to hang back and engage an enemy army at range.
That's not my experience. The most important thing when armies clash is the queston what the heroes can do. Tactics change the situation drastically. Mass Haste Prayer Slow Berserk change the situation massively. Mass Air Shield changes it. Clone changes it and so on. Even a summon changes it. Covering ranged troops may just be a waste of assault power. Plus, you have a range penalty.
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JollyJoker said:
If you attack a town the monks are pretty useless.
They can shoot. Pikemen, Swordsmen and Cavaliers can literally do nothing until the walls come down. I've defended many towns against stronger armies that couldn't engage until it was too late, and lost sieges to high-level ranged units that inflicted damage at a higher rate than my army could afford.
Monks won't do any sizable damage. It's quartered. Whatever you won or lost, it wasn't due to monks. You'll probably have Ballistics as well in case you attack, otherwise you are relying exclusively on Angels and Griffins (towers will hit your ranged troops first anyway).
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SoC has to be evaluated differently because you can build other dwellings in the place of those you don't like.
With Arleon, I saw no good reason to use Militia or Knights. Rangers covered Militia's role, and a combination of Footmen and Horned Ones substituted for Knights (it helped that Fists of Order were prohibitively expensive).
And here we are at the good part of the game. I like Militia and Sappers because they are so cheap. I don't like Rangers, since they are a liability, while Archers need tweo upgrades, but give the same 1 Order essence than militia. Of course, since Knights need Militia as prerequisite, it's an easy squeeze-in. But, admittedly, your strategy works as well (or maybe even better?), but the thing here is, you can do it. (I also like to build Rangers only after the Barracks upgrade, since you get no Rangers at all, but immediately Archers.)
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 11:17 PM |
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I've noticed that your analysis usually omits the early game, and sometimes mid-game as well. Do you not find those battles important?
In many ways, Heroes is a PvE game more than PvP. Making optimal use of your army before it's filled out and upgraded, and heroes while their spellbook is thin and their skills few, is critical to that.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 14, 2022 06:04 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
...but everything you have produced up to that point must be bought unupgraded and then upgraded for +50% cost.
All the more reason to upgrade early. 
With the exception of a Hill Fort (when the map is kind enough to provide it), I have found it easier to upgrade units in SoC than in Heroes 3. There are a few reasons:
- Upgrading a building costs a turn in Heroes 3, so the priority goes to building new dwellings to get higher creature growth.
- I use fewer creatures in SoC, so fewer upgrades are needed.
- Repeating a dwelling and only upgrading one of them still allows you to upgrade all those units in the town. It will cost you more gold, but less other resources.
JollyJoker said:
I also like to build Rangers only after the Barracks upgrade, since you get no Rangers at all, but immediately Archers.
Hmm... I never thought of that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2022 07:58 AM |
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Groovy said:
I've noticed that your analysis usually omits the early game, and sometimes mid-game as well. Do you not find those battles important?
In many ways, Heroes is a PvE game more than PvP. Making optimal use of your army before it's filled out and upgraded, and heroes while their spellbook is thin and their skills few, is critical to that.
Hmm, does it look that way? I mean, Marksmen are the critical unit for Castle in the early and possibly even mid-game, aren't they (which is somewhat boring - Castle/Marksmen, Tower/MGs, Rampart/Elves, those 3 have a clear-cut way to deal with things, the rest is more interesting; of course it depends on the richness of the map and the difficulty you play, but when you have to turn each coin before spending it, it's more fun.) In any case, the ranged stuff is pretty cheesy in HoMM3. (By the way, I bought HoMM 1 yet again, 75% off at GoG, and I wanted a simple install.)
With SoC I find early game satisfactory, especially when the map isn't rich. You need to tread extremely carefully, you cannot buy another hero (town must be level 3 first), and you don't get much in terms of new creatures. The whole game plays more like HoMM 4, where Heroes do more and creatures come in a steady drizzle.
And since you didn't think of building Rangers only after the Barracks upgrade - that's the good thing with that game: NEW ways to play. 
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 15, 2022 09:05 PM |
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It looks that way to me, given how I play and how I've seen others play.
I haven't seen a player prioritise upgrading existing dwellings ahead of building new ones except in rare cases (Gremlins come to mind), so you asking which unupgraded units we actually use tells me that you are not thinking about the early game, where fielding unupgraded units is the norm.
Similarly, the list of ways in which heroes influence combat is indicative of mid-to-late game because, in the early game, heroes typically only know a few low-level spells and haven't mastered any skills.
JollyJoker said:
And since you didn't think of building Rangers only after the Barracks upgrade - that's the good thing with that game: NEW ways to play.
SoC has definitely made some good additions to the game. One that I haven't seen highlighted is having some dwellings produce two units rather than just one. It adds a new variable to take into account when deciding which units to go for.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2022 11:35 PM |
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You mean in HoMM 3? Aren't all towns badsed on some upgrade?
Haven: Marksmen (unupgraded troops used: Pikemen)
Rampart: Grand Elves (Centaurs)
Tower: MGs (Gargoyles, Mages)
Inferno (interesting): depends on situation: possible upgrades: Familiars, Cerberi, Efreet Sultan (Imps, Efreet, Demons)
Necro: VL (Skeletons)
Dunegon (interesting): You play with Trogs, upgrade: Harpy Hag.
Stronghold: T-Birds, Wolf Raiders (Goblins - although the upgrade is so much more effective)
Fortress: Dragonflies (Gnolls, Basilisks Wyvern (depends))
Conflux: Sprite Upgrade.
You will probably use ALL unupgraded lvl 7s except Behemoths, Giants, Hydras and Bone Dragons, generally speaking.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 16, 2022 07:17 AM |
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Yes, I was talking about HoMM 3. The only upgrade I prioritised ahead of building other dwellings was Gremlins. Even Archers, Elves and Hags I only upgraded once this didn't cost me the ability to build a new dwelling before the week's end. Some people I played with upgraded those units earlier than me, but everyone was very selective about it - the majority of their army remained unupgraded until mid-game, and level 7s sometimes until the late game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2022 09:30 AM |
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Yes, but you don't USE them (except for the ones I listed) - generally spoken. That is, you build the dwelling and that's it. Except when you play a small map and have contact immediately.
For one thing, using unupgraded units makes you SLOWER - very important. For another, hiring units that you don't actually need to beat guarding stacks cost gold you need to build stuff.
As a rule, you need a minimum of unupgraded SLOW troops, preferably none. No Dwarves, no Dendroids, no Ogres and so on.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2022 08:03 PM |
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By the way, did anyone of you try the Good Neighbours map? If not, give it a try. Pretty unique setting that, making full use of what's different with SoC.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 16, 2022 11:05 PM |
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I like your list of unupgraded units for some factions, but it's much too short for some others. When playing Dungeon, for example, I would always try to use Beholders and Medusas instead of relying on the first two levels only. There are too many situations where Troglodytes and Harpy Hags wouldn't be enough - be it a tough level 2-3 stack guarding a rare/gold mine, or a level 4-5 stack guarding a passage to another resource-rich area.
I agree with you on avoiding slow units, and leaving them for emergencies.
Keeping gold for building new dwellings makes sense to me, but not so much for upgrading them. There I'm more inclined to spend it to recruit troops with which to speed up exploration instead of delaying this for a week in order to upgrade them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2022 01:03 AM |
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That's EXACTLY why you upgrade the units of choice - to speed up exploration.
HoMM is a game where you have to max out creature production. Consequently you have to spare as much gold as possible to be able to invest it into increasing gold production and increasing creature production. So you do that - and that's "the game", basically, by maxing army power and at the same time minimizing gold expenditure for creature buying.
With your Dungeon example, Beholders are WAY to expensive for what they bring to the army. It's the last Dungeon unit I use and I never buy Beholders from an out-of-town dwelling. You have to spend lots of gold for them, but they don't get the job done.
That's different with Medusae. Yup, you use them, but why? Because a few of them may have a big effect. Even ONE may be great which is how to use them (because of their hand-to-hand paralyzing ability).
Trogs and Harpy Hags will always get the job done - supported by your able Dungeon hero: Beholders won't help. I mean, you don't want a fight in which you SURVIVE because of the Beholders. Because that's what Beholders are. They don't KILL enemies with a minimum of losses, they SURVIVE when everyone else dies. Which is not what you want. You want to keep your creeping army intact.
I mean, Beholders do 3-5 ranged damage at a cost of 250. Marksmen do 4-6 damage at a cost of 150 gold with a higher speed. Beholders are DOUBLE as expensive as Marksmen, when it comes to effectively kill a threat. So basically spoken, if you buy 9 Marksmen for 1350 gold, you'd need to buy 11 Beholders for the same ranged effect - 2750 gold.
At least that's what you do when you are strapped for cash - which is what you are in SoC, because creatutres are expensive. Which is what you are in Homm as well, except in HoMM 3. HoMM 1, 2 and 4 have a much better economy structure, but that's neither here nor there.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 17, 2022 04:02 PM |
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I just played a few games to remind myself how Dungeon army fared early on. I only used Troglodytes and Harpy Hags, and fought in week 2. The army ranged in size from 135 Troglodytes and 20 Harpy Hags to 142 Troglodytes and 32 Harpy Hags. They defeated most level 2 melee stacks with no losses, Gargoyles, Wolf Raiders and most level 3 melee stacks with small losses, and Royal Griffins and Wraiths with non-negligible losses. They did much worse against ranged units. They suffered small losses against Haflings and Master Gremlins, non-negligible losses against Lizardmen, Gogs and Storm Elementals, and heavy losses against Marksmen, Orcs, Beholders and Grand Elves.
Note that I fought each of these battles with a fresh army. In a real game, cumulative damage would be felt pretty quickly.
Adding Beholders reduced the losses. Against Marksmen, losses went from 10 Troglodytes and 1 Harpy Hag to 0 Troglodytes and 1 Harpy Hag. Against Grand Elves, losses went from 15 Troglodytes and 5 Harpy Hags to 16 Troglodytes and 1 Harpy Hag.
JollyJoker said:
I mean, Beholders do 3-5 ranged damage at a cost of 250. Marksmen do 4-6 damage at a cost of 150 gold with a higher speed. Beholders are DOUBLE as expensive as Marksmen, when it comes to effectively kill a threat. So basically spoken, if you buy 9 Marksmen for 1350 gold, you'd need to buy 11 Beholders for the same ranged effect - 2750 gold.
I don't see how this is relevant. A Dungeon player doesn't get to choose between Beholders and Marksmen. If he wants his army to have ranged capability, Beholders are his best option because Medusas have low growth and Stone Gaze is only useful in melee. You are basically advocating for an army with negligible ranged capability in order to save costs.
I get the feeling that the maps you played on were mostly resource-poor, and you had to choose between Harpy Hags and Beholders instead of recruiting both.
JollyJoker said:
At least that's what you do when you are strapped for cash - which is what you are in SoC, because creatutres are expensive.
So build fewer dwellings and more farms? SoC's resource production is not limited the way HoMM's is.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2022 05:31 PM |
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You forget the hero (you did something wrong, obviously).
If you have a might hero you'll start with or get Tactics, allowing for the Hags to reach shooters immediately. If you play a Magic hero, Dungeon being one of the few towns where you have a play with a Magic hero, you'll have the mage guild lvl 2 build (you need it anyway for Dragons, and you need each resource for building Beholders anyway) and quite probably be able to zap the biggest threat from the get-go, since the Hags' speed will more often than not allow you to open proceedings.
For the question what maps I'm playing - that doesn't matter, as long as it's not a map specifically for 1 player, adventure style; any regular map will do, but I play on impossible with no starting stuff. Expert diff you start with 10000 cash and limited resources, which is probably still ok, if you don't want to work REALLY hard, lthough you have enough options (you can immediately afford a 2nd hero, for example, you can build Town Hall, and so on) but you still must be careful with resources.
Everything else - where is the challenge when you can just do what you want, hire heroes by the dozen and grab everything there is immediately? Doesn't matter much what you do when you can do everything you want anyway, because in that case you just build and buy. That isn't even worth a discussion.
If you can't, though, you have to keep in mind that you need the cheapest army possible to allow you the important fights; for Wood and especially Ore, for Sulfur, for gold and so on. And Beholders are crap in that regard because they are too expensive and don't deal enough ranged damage. You build them first week, you have 14 in week 2, costing 3500 gold. You can't afford that, considering your building costs. And what do you get for 3500 gold? 42-70 damage dealt with attack 9, meaning 21-35 damage, halved for range.
That's not cutting it, and especially not against dangerous guards like Marksmen - they just don't kill enough. Their initiave is too low. They survive fine enough, against, say, Griffins, but it's not about fine enough survival, it's about killing guard stacks with cheap enough troops and not losing your capacity to fight. Beholders are expensive melee troops that can deal a bit ranged damage, but excel in nothing.
So as a Dunegon player you DON'T want ranged capability - why would you? Early and mid game it's too expensive and late game you have minos and Scorpies and Dragons and Hags - who needs ranged power with that? And if you DO want ranged capability you want medusas, and you want the Queens at that. You just need to compare the damage and the cost. 7 Beholders cost 1750 gold and deal 21-35 ranged damage with attack 9. 4 Medusas cost 1200 gold and deal 24-32 with attack 9, same average, lot less gold. Medusa upgrade is relatively cheap, needs only 5 Wood in resources, and cost 1320 then, but you gain 1 speed and 4 shots (plus 5 Hps and plus 1 attack and defense).
So no Beholders.
In SoC, yes, you can build more cash-givers, but you'll be strapped for cash, considering what the units cost. A Dire Dreath costs 280, a Veteran Pikeneer 290 and a Veteran Musketeer 350. The Dreath Den gives 2 per day and the Mercenary Quarters give 2 each as well, so with just 2 creature dwellings you can spend 1840 gold per day. Add Pipers and another medium dwelling and, well. You are strapped for cash.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 17, 2022 06:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
If you have a might hero you'll start with or get Tactics...
So as a Dunegon player you DON'T want ranged capability - why would you?...
So no Beholders.
You definitely play heroes 3 (or used to) wildly different than I do. I can see why you don't enjoy it anymore. Beholders are completely dismissed because having a certain hero skill will heighten the usefulness of harpy hags? I also play on impossible, and I play with random faction/hero most of the time. Two dungeon heroes start with tactics IIRC, and it's not a guarantee to get tactics in a game. I never saw tactics as a main skill to dungeon as offensive is to stronghold or defense is to fortress. Do you restart the map or quit if you didn't roll the heroes and/or skills you wanted by like week 2 or 3?
I'm sure youre aware that beholders are more tanky than their elf & orc counterparts in both hp and stats, and they have a good ability. Thats why they cost more. Dungeon has a theme of expensive and strong units sprinkled around their line up. One unit that does stray from this is the scorpicores and I'm shocked you rely on them.
I enjoy games with a large variety of units. Units that can be described as "all-rounders", like the beholder, are welcome additions for me. Every ranged unit doesn't need to be a glass cannon. I don't have fun when I'm only worrying about what is best in slot. Especially not in a RNG filled single player game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2022 08:27 PM |
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*Sigh.* No. Beholders are not completely dismissed because having a certain hero skill will neighten the usefulness of Harpy Hags. They are completely dismissed because they are too expensive foe what they add to an early game army.
No skill is GUARANTEED when you don't start with it, but with a Dungeon Overlord you can pretty much rely on getting it. The question is just WHEN (and of course you must pick it when it's offered you need it anyway).
As I already said, Medusas are better than Beholders, because they do the same ranged damage, may stone with a melee attack or retal and are cheaper, damage point for damage point.
In the early game you don't need expensive units that do nothing right - that's why Marksmen, Grand Elves and MGs are so effective: they do just one thing, but that they do really well.
No, I don't restart.
Yes, I rely on Scorpies because they fly, have good speed and can immobilize an opposing stack, especially when taking a town. It's an endgame unit.
Any map suggestion? Might play a game with Dungeon. Regular SoD.
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