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| Thread: Reskinning Death's Venom Spawns into Liches? | |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 19, 2021 10:03 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 09:53, 20 Jul 2021.
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Poll Question:
Reskinning Death's Venom Spawns into Liches?
Some of the most controversial units in H4 are well remembered. One of the is the Venom Spawn. Sort of an oddball, this creature doesn't appear in any mythology, and neither in other Heroes installments. Though mechanically it works well and it is quite strong, flavor-wise there are doubts.
Reskinning this creature with a Lich is possible in H4 Ultimate. TheLich has a long and distinguished service with the Heroes franchise as a creature, and is somewhat missed despite there being hero necromancers/liches. The main inevitable mechanical difference would be making the lich Undead (which the Venom Spawn isn't), since we don't have a way to add spells to creatures without Equilibris just yet.
The Lich would look like a sequence-edited male death necromancer. The hero necromancer itself can be replaced with a modified Baron Von Tarkin version, so there is no chance to confuse it with the unit (or vice versa: Make the edited Baron into the lich creature). This was also expected for Equilibris next versions, BTW.
On the other hand, about the mechanical aspects, there are some other possible changes, while the base function and role stays the same: Lich would still be a slow archer that poisons enemies at a distance.
Perhaps the "death cloud" could be made as an area attack, but I'm not so sure this is convenient, so I included both as options here as well. The Venom Cloiud would be nerfed with respect to single target, but would work much as a weaker poisonous Cyclops Rock at a distance (while looking still green and venomous).
This would be for a theoretical V4 of Heroes 4 Ultimate, as well for your design opinion in general. Other creatures would remain basically untouched so far with respect to V3.
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zense
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 20, 2021 09:07 AM |
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Edited by zense at 09:09, 20 Jul 2021.
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Whatever you personally want as a creator is the right choice, in my opinion. Also it's probably old news for many around here, but I found that giving a hero the poison arrow and flaming arrow gave him the ability to cloud poison the enemies he would hit with his area attack. Quite cool, I think.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 20, 2021 09:48 AM |
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Quote:
Whatever you personally want as a creator is the right choice, in my opinion.
Well, while it is true ultimately it is my choice, a few people are *outraged* at each change I make. So I'm trying to gauge public opinion.
On the other hand, there are so far no votes or opinions for or against teh reskin, so maybe people don't feel particularly strongly about this one issue. At least, so far...
Quote:
Also it's probably old news for many around here, but I found that giving a hero the poison arrow and flaming arrow gave him the ability to cloud poison the enemies he would hit with his area attack. Quite cool, I think.
I know, yes. That is why I speak of giving the lich cloud poisoning, as it's the same with creature area attack and poison, AFAIK.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2021 11:04 AM |
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Rather death mage hero. Needs:
1. Recoloring
2. Reducing size about 90% to not make mistakes with hero. Irfan bath lanczos.
3. Map travelling pictures are needed.
4. Add Cyclop ability.
5. Make missile using H2 or H3 death cloud or one of clouds from H4.
...
And witches/wraiths can be made the same using ghost or evil sorceress needs recoloring and resizing.
...
It may replacing venoms because they rather nature than death.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 28, 2021 07:49 PM |
bonus applied by Galaad on 29 Sep 2021. |
Edited by NimoStar at 06:04, 29 Sep 2021.
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So, the cyclops abilities and the catapult abilities don't work, but the lich is on it's way regardless.
SOON
vñ- Infernal Lich to replace Venom Spawn.
This was voted on the thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=47108
(3 - 2 in favor of the lich, as of the time of writing)
v- Description updated.
v- Projectile changed from acid spit to fire.
v- Ranged anim the melee anim.
v- Spell change, and spell icon change - "Invoke venom spawn" -> "Invoke Infernal Lich"
v-- HP invoked reduced, because it's replenishing the Rebirth mana with each cast, and it has "imp insurance" for one time [18 from 16 spell points] (revise).
NY (needs portrait change)
NY (needs necromancy description change)
NY (may make head turn by default as stand?)
NY (needs adventure images)
NY (needs sounds changes, may use H3 lich sounds; attack most important)
NY (needs town building reskin)
NY (needs adventure building reskin [controversial, but at least add new; if replace, re.-add old one with another filename])
NY (needs change in cheat menu from Venom Spawn)
NY - Make Venom Spawn fidgets appear as map objects, so they are not wasted.
NY - Activate hybrid "venom spawn liches" as heroes.
Infernal Lich Abilities:
- Undead.
- Ranged (half melee damage).
- Fire attack.
- Rebirthing at 2/3rds original strenght.
- Since Undead Transformer gives Vampires for level 4 creatures, Infernal Liches are made by necromancy. This also tends to end "vampire snowballing" problem. Liches don't drain life so accumulating should be "fine".
- Appearance is now based on Baron Von Tarkin (this was to be the Equilibris lich, as well).
Infernal Lich Notes:
My first desire was to have a toxic Lich doing a venom cloud. However, this was not possible because the game seems to have hardcoded stuff for creatures with area effect attacks. Adding the ability will not work (this seems related to invoking the "puff" animation where the projectile falls).
So, with both Area Attack and Greek Fire unavailable to work, I had to settle for a fire-themed lich, since poisoning a single target would be too much like the Venom Spawn thus not distinguishing the creature from its predecessor. The ranged poison was moved to the Waspwort -which had ranged weakness cast removed- since otherwise it would be an unused capability of the game.
Since Fire Elementals are no longer ranged (and no longer have Fire Attack, having Breath Attack and Fire Shield instead, which are also subject to Fire Resistance), the Infernal Lich is the only ranged fire attacker.
The Infernal Lich is convenient in several other ways. For example, it "balances" the Infernopolis: Having four "fiery" creatures (t1 Imp, t2 Cerberus, t3 Infernal Lich, t4 Archdevils) and four "cold creatures" (t1 Skeleton, t2 Poltergeist, t3 Vampire, t4 Bone Dragon) in the lineup.
Other creatures realignement:
- Waspworts given Poison at a distance.
- Waspwort stats adjusted (weakened) to compensate new ability.
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2021 08:38 PM |
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Nice, finally some good news!!
I will surely like these new infernal liches, ommggg thank you!!
I like the abilities, I have been looking forward to it! 
But it rquires a hard wotk right and what about a Lich-minimod, that was created for a long time ago, can you use it as an example or help, hmm??
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted September 28, 2021 10:57 PM |
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Well i agree, that Liches would work better for Death faction, but what about making Succubuses instead Venom Spawn? If half of Death faction is Undead/Necro and 2nd half was supposed to be Inferno part, Succubuses would work well. They are also ranged units, they could hypnotize enemy units(same as Heroes 5 alt. Succubus upgrade), or having Chain Lighting like strike(fire version).
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 29, 2021 12:36 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:41, 29 Sep 2021.
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While your idea isn't bad, there are several problems which make me prefer still the Infernal Lich:
- Succubus doesn't have "tradition". It appeared for the first time in Heroes 5. H3 inferno didn't have anything like it.
- There is a single sprite in H4 which could fulfill that role, and it's the Chaos Sorceress. However, this would mean the need to replace it in it's role as hero. Which means more changes and more work.
All in all, I believe the Succubus would be worse received than the Infernal Lich by the conservative public, mainly.
Also, while it could hypnotize in melee, and also attack with fire (as Infernal Liches do now), there is no way in the current framework to make it hypnotize at a distance or attack multiple targets at range. That could only be achieved with the spellcasting enabled by greatest mod/equilibris framework, which isn't compatible with the abilities plugin (that is used by ULTIMATE).
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted September 29, 2021 12:52 AM |
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Succubi were confirmed to exist, in H3 Armageddon's Blade campaign texts (and one could even say, MM? Lol, the Kreegan queen; though Succubi did definitely exist in MM9 as enemies, on Axeoth), and are a classic staple of Infernal creatures (which is one design philosophy at least H3 used, using well-known and/or popular creatures, monsters).
Just pointing out some information, not implying anything else, you guys feel free to do anything you want with it to be honest.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 29, 2021 01:09 AM |
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That may be so but still didn't appear as creatures in any previous Heroes game.
Plus I already made 75% of the work for Liches before anyone even mentioned the succubi possibility even though the thread is months old. Should have remembered earlier if you wanted it 
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted September 29, 2021 09:21 AM |
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We can add animation what we want. Only problem is to have model in 8 sides looks. Converting it to h4d using Ilive tool is rather fast and simply. Other idea is h3d to h4d converter. I know its only 2 sides look but we can use 4x2 looks. In this case we have extremly fast unit maker because we have maybe thosands h3defs. Maybe not perfect but in present situation we have no hope to big h4d modelmakers teams. But we have a lot h3 object banks. Not only creatures.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 29, 2021 06:40 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 18:41, 29 Sep 2021.
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Well, Unfortunately I can't do everything.
Things I do:
- Table editing
- Configuration
- File unpacking
- File packing
- Sprite list editing
- Sprite editing/recolor
- Hex editing
- Exe resource hacking
Things I don't do:
- 3D rendering
- Plugin/dll programming
To get a H3 3D unit and convert for h4, you need to rerender every animation at isometric angle - a non trivial job.
I would be delighted if someone took up this task.
Example of ten dollar model which comes with rig and some animations:
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/character/fantasy/demoness-from-underworld-game-ready-character
"Has 11 basic animations (idle, walk, run, impact, attack, death)"
Though rather we could extract one from H5/H7 for free (possibly with needed anims), it would still need to be isometrically 2D rendered.
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