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| Thread: Convert H3 maps to H4 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted November 17, 2021 05:29 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:30, 17 Nov 2021.
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Reality will agree with me, though, as any quick evidence of object sizes and passability shows.
As I said, we'll see. It will eventually be obvious enough that 1:1 is not tenable and only 1x1->2x2 is viable.
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2021 06:46 PM |
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Doubtful. Just let it go my man  It's opinions on both sides.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted November 17, 2021 07:17 PM |
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Mathematics is not opinion.
But sorry if I sound too rough. I'm having a hard time IRL.
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted November 19, 2021 06:30 AM |
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While I'm waiting for the crew to improve the Advanced Map editor, I'll rely on my old mapmaking skills along with the current A.M.E. Results coming soon.
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted November 22, 2021 04:37 PM |
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Edit. Updated the original post with a link to a mapping of h3 creatures to h4 creatures. Anyone who is interested in helping please take a look
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NimoStar said:
But sorry if I sound too rough. I'm having a hard time IRL.
No prob man! Hope you feel better.
As an update, I've begun converting and placing towns from H3 -> H4. The only one we don't have a conversion for is Conflux (obviously). Though I guess a placeholder could be Preserve, since the Elementals fall there in the summoning portal.
Next I'm going to move to transferring resources and mines.
It's taking a little longer as my H4 map object code wasn't done in the best way.. So I'm also in the process of updating that code.
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted December 07, 2021 01:29 AM |
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The current map editor you have, has really cut back a lot on hand placing objects everywhere. Having the towns, resources, creature stacks and a few other things already on the map helps tremendously!
The problems I have are minor ones. Hero color placement needs looking into. One town was supposed to be Orange and showed up Purple. Another Town was supposed to be Green and showed up Teal. A little tweaking maybe here and there. Otherwise, converting the maps I'm doing have been reduced quite a bit already!! Thanks.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 07, 2021 06:24 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 18:29, 07 Dec 2021.
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Baronus
Ok. Unit (and dwelling) conversion complete.
To not waste maps created for concrete faction best solution is convert by faction and next by unit.
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Factions:
castle = life
rampart = 50% nature
conflux = 50% nature
tower = order
strongh = 50% might
fortres = 50% might
dungeon = chaos
necropo = 50% death
inferno = 50% death
...
Eg.
...
pike - sqir
halb - 50/50 sqir/arch
...
arch - arch
cros - balis
..
grif - 50/50 balis/pike
rgri - pike
...
swor - 50/50 pike/crus
crus - crus
...
monk - 50/50 crus/monk
prie - monk
...
chav - 50/50 monk/cham
cham - cham
...
ange - 50/50 cham/ange
aang - ange
...
And next the same:
...
1lvl ---- 1 lvl minor
1lvl upg. 50/50 1 lvl minor/major
...
2lvl ---- 1 lvl major
2lvl upg. 2 lvl minor
...
3lvl ---- 50/50 2 lvl minor/2 lvl major
3lvl upg. 2 lvl major
...
4lvl ---- 50/50 3 lvl minor/2 lvl major
4lvl upg. 3 lvl minor
...
5lvl ---- 50/50 3 lvl minor/3 lvl major
5lvl upg. 3 lvl major
...
6lvl ---- 50/50 4 lvl minor/3 lvl major
6lvl upg. 4 lvl minor
...
7lvl ---- 50/50 4 lvl minor/4 lvl major
7lvl upg. 4 lvl major
...
...
Neutral:
peas - 50/50 peas/leprechaun
halfing - 50/50 wasp/fire el.
bandit - 50/50 pirate/troglodite
boar - 50/50 gargoyle/air el.
mummy - 33/33/33 mummy/zombie/ice
nomad - 50/50 siren/ earth el.
ranger - 50% cros 50% elf
troll - 50/50 troll/satir/
gold golem - golem
diamondgolem - golem
enchan - 50/50 monk/mage
faerie dragon -- 33/33/33 beholder/water el./sorceress
sulfur dragon -- 33/33/33 sea monst/mantis/goblin kn
cristal dragon -- 33/33/33 catapult/gnasher/ev.champion
blue dragon <--> 50/50 megadragon/gargantuan
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2021 05:50 PM |
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So far I've converted and transferred the following from H3 maps to H4 maps:
- Terrain
- Towns
- Resources
- Mines
- Creature stacks*
*I don't have a complete mapping yet of creatures and am using a value of 0 as a placeholder for the ones we haven't mapped yet. 0 is the code for Air Elemental, so those currently appear for creatures that don't yet have a mapping.
These are next on my list:
- Heroes
- Quest huts
- Quest guards
- Garrisons
- Placed events
- Town Events
- Add creature stack encounter texts
- Limit growth scripting (for H3 stacks that don't grow)
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted December 09, 2021 09:06 PM |
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To Baronus:
I like the arrangements you have mentioned above, however some are borderline and require the mapmakers' decision alone. Myself, I like to keep the same creature stacks from H3, transferred to H4. I like Champions to replace Champions, for instance, only reduce the stack number and set growth limits. I like keeping shooters with shooters in the conversion. But sometimes, you can't always do that. You have to do what you can do with what you got. I've found that with experience playing both H3 and H4, sometimes the Human vs. AI element works just as well for conversion and was accidently overlooked on your list. (This being the mapmakers call, for the most part, in your defense.) Having the numbers match isn't always the correct way to go, but it is a real good gauge to start with.
To iliveinabox05:
The rate you are going with the Advanced Options Map Editor, has drastically reduced the amount of time to convert the H3 Chronicles Series into H4. And the stuff you have listed to convert, yet again, will reduce it even more. And as another feature I would like to see, would be the conversion for Artifacts. This is quite a small challenge in itself to figure out, although the Artifacts for the series, in part, has gone smoothly. Luckily, transferring Artifacts from one map to another within the Chronicles series, is not a major requirement. As I see some Artifacts from a previous map are introduced again in the next map. But there will be a time when they will be needed in another campaign altogether. But the work you have done up to this point leaves no room for complaints. Good job!
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2021 09:23 PM |
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Ah yes, artifacts! We'll need to make a mapping like we have for creatures!
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2021 04:42 PM |
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For special maps manual correction is needed. Its imposibble to make it for all variants. Its first for rmg maps to have good rmg. Second for usual maps. Its about 95%.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 11, 2021 01:13 AM |
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Stacks should not be converted based on X number but rather on X experience points of creatures, to convert H3 crossbowmen to H4 ballistas and such things would be OP otherwise.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2021 07:07 PM |
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Yes in H4 xp points in H3 AI value.
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted December 12, 2021 06:41 PM |
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Someone can feel free to set up a mapping from h3's AI value to h4's experience amount 
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted December 13, 2021 04:17 AM |
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Well, for us making these Chronicles maps, creatures are more or less easy to figure out. We've been getting it right as we go along. Not so easy for artifacts though. H3 has more artifacts, and H4 has less but more powerful ones. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out the path of least resistance for proper conversion of artifacts. When you put together something like what we're doing, you find out it's harder than making a map from scratch. The last problem you solved brings on more questions for the next problem. Especially if you're trying to keep the campaigns as close as possible to the original. Which is what we all want.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 13, 2021 10:06 PM |
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Yes always better making something complicated from zero than using complete work and rebuild it to other target.
But conversion to different game can be done with big tolerance because its imposible have it 1:1.
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Fo unit conversion.
Angel H4 620 xp * 2 growth plus the same value for rest units gives 2500 week growth.
AAng H3 8776 AI value *2 growth plus more than the same for resf units gives 37-38.000 value.
It gives 1xp H4 = 15 AI value H3.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 16, 2021 11:39 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 04:50, 17 Dec 2021.
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I believe we may need more than Angel reference.
For example, H3 has 7+ unit levels (Azure Dragon is like level 9/10), while H4 only has 4+ (Megadragon is at least level 5; unless we count that as Black Dragon, then it's like level 6+)
Anyways, the base is still 7 vs 4.
And the inequality of power is lower in H4
Whereas H3 Troglodyte is:
4 atk
3 def
5 hp
=
59 AI value
https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Troglodyte_and_Infernal_Troglodyte
H4 troglodyte is:
11 atk
9 def
11 hp
(XP isn't registered in the website, but I'd guess about 9/10 per trog, based on my modding)
https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Troglodyte_(H4)
I think the foremost would be, to get reasonable results in other tiers, to convert XP to AI value based on lowest level units, not highest.
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted December 17, 2021 12:42 AM |
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I can see where all the number crunching comes into play for conversion purposes. Especially for the beginning stages of a campaign or single map for that matter. But from the halfway point of a campaign and onward, it won't really matter all too much by then. Because in later stages, the heroes' carry over experience will have increased enough to handle whatever comes at him/her. And in H4, you can put other heroes in creature slots to help you out. Something you can't do in the H3 Chronicles. The extra hero or heroes is/are nice to have especially if they are carried over from a previous map. Along with carry over Artifacts and possible creatures and/or spells and so on. Also, human tactics and strategy never hurts in later stages either.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 17, 2021 04:54 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 04:56, 17 Dec 2021.
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Perhaps some of that applies, but not all converted maps have to be Chronicles, and others are more precisely constructed/harder.
Also, take into account this doesn't only affect AI opponents, but also neutral monsters for passing, and even player's initial stacks.
Have too big initial stacks (for example [?] converting from the wrong creature reference), and the map could be a cakewalk and not enjoyable.
Seeing as difficulty doesn't even change player stack size, a mistake like this potentially can't be fixed even going on Champion.
I'd say based on raw stats, as well as based on different inequality with max tier creatures, that every H4 troglodyte is worth about 2.5+ times as much as an H3 (unupgraded) troglodyte, and roughly 2 times as much as an H3 Infernal troglodyte.
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted December 17, 2021 06:51 AM |
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I understand what you're trying to get across. I'm only talking about the workings of the Chronicle campaigns here only. (I can't multitask enough to concentrate on the Chronicles series and convert a specially designed map from H3 to H4 at the same time. Perhaps later I'll try.)
Every map in H3 is different from one another. When you convert any map from H3 to H4, you have to take into consideration each map separately and figure out what would it take to make the H4 map the closest to the original H3 map as possible. Many things lack in H4 as opposed to that in H3. You have to make the call yourself as a mapmaker on many, many things. At this point, numbers don't help much. They're just a guide. If you ever do a conversion, you'll find yourself shooting from the hip more than anything.
And if you can't figure out the proper conversion from a H3 map to a H4 map, then it probably means that you haven't played both games enough to know how to properly do a conversion for proper play. I can say I have played both of them enough to know what is needed for a decent conversion.
And if your experience is lacking in playing both H3 and H4 equally to know the difference, there is always scripting in H4 that can make the game the way you want it for either easy or hard game play.
It's not complicated.
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