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| Thread: General discussion of Heroes IV features |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 15, 2023 10:20 AM |
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General discussion of Heroes IV features
Nobility and Stealth come first to mind as subjects.
Everyone is welcome to add their thoughts on these and all the other Heroes IV skills. Or spells. Or creatures. Or anything else.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted January 15, 2023 07:23 PM |
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nobility is good for all your garrisoned hero "governors", but it's quite effective.
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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
- Kralkatorrik
https://dragcave.net/user/ArdentWyrm
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 15, 2023 07:35 PM |
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Ok H4 is accurate: Stronghold 50%, Academy Nobility, Preserve Creature Portal, Necropolis Vampire, and then suck teams are Haven Resurrection and Asylum Stealth. But Stronghold, Necropolis and Haven can hire Nobility heroes. And then Stronghold Grail. When all game about spells, stats and tactic generals.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 15, 2023 07:40 PM |
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Worst pack is ofcourse Chaos start warrior ability. Navigation is uselees for major number of maps. Scouting is always worst ability. Stealth too. Only pathfinding is sensible...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 15, 2023 09:28 PM |
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I wouldn't say that.
The higher the difficulty level, the stronger the guarding stacks. A Thief might offer pretty much the only good option to get going fast.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 15, 2023 09:33 PM |
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A big prob lem with hero stealth ability in Chaos is that Bandits already have that ability and it's betetr to send just 1 bandit, they even count as advanced (not basic) stealth.
However, I made chaos might hero better by giving them nobility too. Now in my mod all factions have acess to nobility.
Order already has another macroeconomic advantage which is Treasury, which eventually equals exponential "Infinite" money
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2023 11:16 PM |
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baronus said:
Worst pack is ofcourse Chaos start warrior ability. Navigation is uselees for major number of maps. Scouting is always worst ability. Stealth too. Only pathfinding is sensible...
I strongly disagree that Scouting skills are useless on Thief. Yes, it's highly dependent on the map you play, but on average I'd say it's all right.
Navigation is usually banned on maps with no water, and on maps with water it's very useful (in Equilibris especially, because Seamanship saves movement after getting on or off the ship).
Stealth is unique skill people love or hate with no inbetween. It's most useful if you get it from the start with Thief class, later it becomes useless as you get big army and powerful magic. Quick leveling of thief + lots of resources/artifacts at the start stolen from guards make Thief potentialy one of the strongest early game heroes.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 16, 2023 03:22 AM |
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You say "if they level up fast" but by definition they don't start with combat abilities, and sneaking gives almost no XP as compared to fighting.
Stealth heroes don't level up fast
Also Stealth can't be independently leveled from the (practically useless) Scouting base skill
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 07:32 AM |
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Ok I know about Heroes 4 same as Biblical verses.. If you've read my Community Members Vital Statistics..
I talked Nobility vs Stealth..
Now's better the best Scouting class, ok
When 1lvl thousands Leprechauns.. You've some treasure Chests on the map.. Order needs 1lvl Poison and 2lvl Slow against Leprechauns.. So variations are different, when if you can't find from Mage Guild.. So you build a Magi and Genies, if those are disabled, so you've one still strategy is University.. So what is the Treasure Chest.
But Asylum can build a Battle Academy, and then take a Treasure Chest for Stealth. Asylum has Medusas, Nightmares, and Mage Guilds.. If disabled Medusas.. What was Magi.. But now it seems all is ok.. Stealth is winner.. And Bandits?! ..give golds, resources, etc So Black Dragon costs 8000 gold and 4 sulphur.. A normal event..
So the same Stronghold, Preserve, Necropolis and Haven.. H4 is balancing game, not H4E..
Ok then 2lvl Minotaurs  Quite good choice.. But you should test yourself, and you become Ghost-like expert in some day.. I'm ex-Hexis..
Useless Seamanship? No.. When you've ok skills, but Altar of Scouting.. The same thing other skills.. Is it worth taking.. When you've ok skills, and you reject Scouting skills.. Later on your hero class changes another class, you can't get a Scouting any more.. I did many times.. When you can gain your power like Hexis.. And Seamanship is a very hell fast.. My favourite map has sea.. But I play also land.. So I haven't problem with skills..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 09:29 AM |
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Edited by Albyx at 09:37, 16 Jan 2023.
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NimoStar said:
You say "if they level up fast" but by definition they don't start with combat abilities, and sneaking gives almost no XP as compared to fighting.
Stealth heroes don't level up fast
Once you get advanced stealth from battle academy + 1 or 2 treasure chests you start snowballing. You don't get much experience from sneaking, but you get resources, artifacts, buffs from buildings and gems, skill altars and other stuff that contributes to making your Thief stronger.
You compare Stealth to combat abilities, but what makes Stealth so strong is the fact it works in cases where combat doesn't. It's the only skill that gets better on higher difficulties with mobs count increasing, because Thief just doesn't care how many creatures there are if he can walk past them.
NimoStar said:
However, I made chaos might hero better by giving them nobility too. Now in my mod all factions have acess to nobility.
I dislike this change. Heroes starting with 2 primary skills mean they are more limited in what what ways you can develop them, they have 3 free slots for primary skills instead of 4 as usually. This change in Ultimate makes Thieves only worse IMO.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 09:48 AM |
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Maybe NimoStar is a greater antagonist than Hexis.. I only kept "IMO", different gaming theory, etc are the Great Babylon.. It doesn't matter  Because I understood well.. I rejected Hexis, and I'm aged 44yo.. etc So no longer to say opinion their maps..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 03:57 PM |
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Yes only one 1 bandite can clean all around from treasures. Scout recognising enemy army is maybe useful in contest multiplayer tournaments. If you use save load options you simply restart your defeated battles. Is too much mistakes in one stack because chaos warrior hero is too weak if we compare with eg. barbarian od knight skills. It should be rebuild. 3 of these 4 skills remove to other stacks
1.
attack hero
attack unit
pathfinding
morale+luck
2.
deffence hero
deffence unit
scouting
estates
3.
archery hero
archery unit
navigation
nobility
4.
magic resistance
stealth
mining
diplomacy
...
For me that's better than ingame if we cant add new.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 16, 2023 04:33 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 16:45, 16 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
Once you get advanced stealth from battle academy + 1 or 2 treasure chests you start snowballing. You don't get much experience from sneaking, but you get resources, artifacts, buffs from buildings and gems, skill altars and other stuff that contributes to making your Thief stronger.
There is no such "snowballing", in most maps strong artifacts are behind monster you can't sneak or even in treasures.
" Thief just doesn't care how many creatures there are if he can walk past them."
Yeah no you can't, there is such thing as castles, garrisons and single-square passes. To beat the map you need to defeat the enemy.
Quote:
I dislike this change. Heroes starting with 2 primary skills mean they are more limited in what what ways you can develop them, they have 3 free slots for primary skills instead of 4 as usually. This change in Ultimate makes Thieves only worse IMO.
Actually you make order more OP by making only their nobility hero more overpowered by only letting them access to Town Conversion. Such an ability needs to be symmetrical across the factions, not buffing the strongest faction. But well, with your Death changes you also buff the other OP faction while keeping the weaker factions weak and with no buffs, so I can't be surprised.
BTW faction rating isn't my subjective opinion but the experience of all H4 advanced players. Death and Order are the strongest while Chaos is the weakest. This is a known fact agreed by the community.
See opinions here for example - most thing Death, Order and Life are strong, some think Preserve is reasonably good solely due to the OP Water Elementals, while few think Chaos is strong at all
Anyways, off to create a new thread.
You *want* instant +10% growth in your town so the change makes them *objectively better*, as you have a reason to recruit them even if there aren't "sneaky rewards" you can get (which there usually... aren't).
To sneak right past level 4 monsters you need Grandmaster Stealth, which is equivalent to level 9. No artifact or gold, even if they existed, will help with this. The pitiful stealth experience will never get you there on a normal game.
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 04:44 PM |
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Edited by Albyx at 17:43, 16 Jan 2023.
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If you feel like it's absolutely nessesary to give all heroes 3 skills from the start, you can give thief advanced stealth.
I think vanilla starting skills are fine and there is no need to reinvent them. And thiefs shouldn't lose their stealth skill, that's what makes them special and different from other classes!
Edit: Nimo, I responded to you in Enhancement Mod topic
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted January 18, 2023 01:22 AM |
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Heroes IV would be just a good game as H5 or H3 for me if not for AI bug, like you could probably beat 10 AIs that start with 10 level 4 creatures if you're patient enough.
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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
- Kralkatorrik
https://dragcave.net/user/ArdentWyrm
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 25, 2023 08:39 AM |
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ArdentWyrm said:
Heroes IV would be just a good game as H5 or H3 for me if not for AI bug, like you could probably beat 10 AIs that start with 10 level 4 creatures if you're patient enough.
I agree. And it is better than V, VI and VII for me.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 25, 2023 08:08 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:29, 25 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
And thiefs shouldn't lose their stealth skill, that's what makes them special and different from other classes!
Nothing makes them special and different from other classes actually since anyone and anything can get stealth skill... H4 classes just aren't differentiated except for class bonus (which "thieve" don't even have)
Thieves neither provide power to your economy and recruiting (like Nobles), strength to your army (like death knights and regular knights) or power as individuals (like Rangers and Barbarians)
So yes, from my perspective, there is plenty of need to "reinvent" the non-functioning square wheel
Anyways, my Impostor replacement class still has stealth and scouting, just adding nobility since the starting number of skills is now three, so I don't see what the point of the complaining about "thief stealth in ultimate" is. It works just as before, the class only has an added macroeconomic utility.
Quote:
Heroes IV would be just a good game as H5 or H3 for me if not for AI bug, like you could probably beat 10 AIs that start with 10 level 4 creatures if you're patient enough.
To me, the most exploitable part of h4 is the infinite retreating. Attack, use magic, retreat, attack again... its literally free. They should have made it so that you need to re-recruit your own heroes for gold (maybe from your own Prison), preferably the next day, similar to H3 re-recruiting from tavern.
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 26, 2023 06:35 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Nothing makes them special and different from other classes actually since anyone and anything can get stealth skill... H4 classes just aren't differentiated except for class bonus (which "thieve" don't even have)
Actually thieves case is different from other classes, because they get stealth from level 1 and can make use of it. For other classes you need to be level 3+ to get basic stealth or get university and spend 2k-4k gold.
You can say that the same goes to every skill, but stealth is unique because it's only useful if you have it from the start in most cases and waiting for one or two turns only to get basic stealth makes it not worth it.
NimoStar said:
Anyways, my Impostor replacement class still has stealth and scouting, just adding nobility since the starting number of skills is now three, so I don't see what the point of the complaining about "thief stealth in ultimate" is. It works just as before, the class only has an added macroeconomic utility.
I wasn't complaining about Impostor losing stealth, it was response to baronus selection of skills to choose three for Thief from.
For Ultimate my only complaint is that Impostor has 3 free primary skill slots instead of 4 so they have less options in their final skill selection.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 26, 2023 02:37 PM |
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If you want learning another skill, you will get it from "scholars", witch huts, beastmaster tents, school of war, school of magic, university of war, university of magic, visiting Life or Order towns with University or Seminary...
not by random leveling which is unlikely to give you anything you want.
I cannot stress hard enopugh that Asylum doesn't have *any* macroeconomic advantage possible in the base game, zero; even Dungeon had Artifact Merchants and Portal in H3.
You seriously underestimate macroeconomics which is why you made the undead transformer so op (more than usual) in the first place as well as restrict town conversion, a fundamental power, to GM nobility (only giving access to Order side of the wheel)
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 26, 2023 05:00 PM |
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Edited by Albyx at 17:03, 26 Jan 2023.
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NimoStar said:
If you want learning another skill, you will get it from "scholars", witch huts, beastmaster tents, school of war, school of magic, university of war, university of magic, visiting Life or Order towns with University or Seminary...
not by random leveling which is unlikely to give you anything you want.
If you want to tell that every hero can learn stealth and be like thief, I'm afraid you are wrong. Starting basic stealth helps a lot: where others will get basic stealth, thief will get advanced, and this enables sneaking much faster. It's not only about leveling, adventure objects too.
In universities you pay 2000 per skill, to learn stealth you need to roll two scouting skills in it and spend 4000 to learn scouting + stealth. That's assuming you start with university, otherwise you pay almost 10k of gold to get what thief STARTS WITH. And it will be useless anyway, because you need advanced scouting to start sneaking.
Shrines are a bit better because you don't pay for them, but you won't get enough scouting shrines to get advanced stealth from zero. Thieves on other hand can get advanced scouting and stealth from 2 shrines or other skill boosters!
NimoStar said:
I cannot stress hard enopugh that Asylum doesn't have *any* macroeconomic advantage possible in the base game, zero; even Dungeon had Artifact Merchants and Portal in H3.
They don't get macroeconomic mechanic, but they get early economy boost with bandits. This fits Chaos agressive game plan.
NimoStar said:
You seriously underestimate macroeconomics which is why you made the undead transformer so op (more than usual) in the first place as well as restrict town conversion, a fundamental power, to GM nobility (only giving access to Order side of the wheel)
Town conversion is logically and thematically fits Nobility, Nature and Might also have access to Nobility. Chaos, as I said before, is aggressive and fast, so not having town conversion doesn't affect them so much and I'd say toen conversion even contradicts Chaos faction.
You seem to overestimate town conversion, it's not a fundamental power,but an option that works only on very specific maps.
Undead transformer got more usefull if you play demonic creatures strategy, that's it.
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