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| Thread: Shower Thought: How to "Fix" Learning |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted November 05, 2023 05:07 PM |
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Shower Thought: How to "Fix" Learning
Just had the idea that if you right click on the learning skill you can remove it from your Hero.
Do you think this would fix it? The percentages would still need to be figured out, but I really think this would do it.
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2023 06:12 PM |
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I have a great idea. Learning can be combined with eagle eye. Still a sucky skill though
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2023 08:01 PM |
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The option to remove unwanted skills would be really nice, not just for learning. These days I mostly play tower. I would love this. Is it possible to mod this?
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted November 05, 2023 11:20 PM |
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heymlich said:
The option to remove unwanted skills would be really nice, not just for learning. These days I mostly play tower. I would love this. Is it possible to mod this?
I think it would be overpowered and become quickly bland if you could do it for all skills. Learning (and Eagle Eye to a lesser extent) are more unique in that they stop being useful in time.
But if you could remove everything, every game your heroes would have basically the same skill set.
Is it possible? Should be. Market of Time already exists in Wog and Era.
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2023 11:23 PM |
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Ya so learning at 10% increments plus eagle eye ability with instant learning of the spell not after a battle that should make it viable
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 06, 2023 01:47 PM |
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Learning is still good, if over 27 level, but WoG is much better, thus once I made a map, your kingdom has sawmill and ore pit without monsters, and quest guard asks 2 level hero to access country, and the next, etc, so I waited for monsters appear on the map, but WoG, so I deleted my map, another reason unfinished map.. Learning is also good due to H4 had continued Stealth..
I can't say the same about Eagle Eye, thus RoE where is Fear spell* and Eagle Eye for walkthrough.. An example my Elite (SoD) or The Immortal Battle (WoG/ERA), you can't get 2 level spells, Tome of books, only you fight against mastered spellcaster AIs.. So Eagle Eye is useless in a normal map, thus H4 hasn't a Eagle Eye.. *When opponent found in a Pyramid, it's only one or Scholar can share to other heroes, but you haven't a Fear.. So snow Eagle Eye is needed.. Walkthrough is more definite, because you can't buy dead heroes, etc, for example.. But against AI..
So Learning is better, because you can play against human players..
Can I suggest you? The same in the WoG script, but expert 30%, not 20% in the WoG, or 15% in H3C.. So Learning specialist too, it does in total 35% plus expert does 300 experience points in every day, what's the good..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2023 08:44 PM |
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Quote:
The option to remove unwanted skills would be really nice, not just for learning. These days I mostly play tower. I would love this. Is it possible to mod this?
You can do this if you play SoD HD with the following plugin - ForgetSecSkill
Just left click on a skill picture and press Cancel button.
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Barbuta
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2023 10:39 PM |
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In my opinion secondary skill learning should give you +50%/+100%/+150% experience gain and a specialist should give an extra +50% on top of the other bonuses. That should make this skill viable
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2023 03:37 AM |
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Edited by heymlich at 03:40, 07 Nov 2023.
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AlexSpl said:
You can do this if you play SoD HD with the following plugin - ForgetSecSkill
I didn't know such a good thing exists 
I feel a bit silly to ask this, but what do I do with that .dll?
I have the GOG version of H3 complete, the HD mod 5.4 R55 version and no other mods. I sould probably add it in the main page of th HD launcher in the "plugins" field, but it doesn't show up there no matter where I put the .dll file. Do I need some other mod to make it work?
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2023 04:00 AM |
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Unzip the archive to _HD3_Data\Packs\ForgetSecSkill folder (you can name a folder as you wish), then add the plugin to the Plugins list (you'll be able to do it now).
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2023 06:35 AM |
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That worked (I had not created the subdirectory previously).
Thanks, you are my hero. I'll go play now 
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 07, 2023 09:49 AM |
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Barbuta said:
In my opinion secondary skill learning should give you +50%/+100%/+150% experience gain and a specialist should give an extra +50% on top of the other bonuses. That should make this skill viable
Logistics 50% at Expert.. IMO..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 07, 2023 05:06 PM |
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Barbuta said:
In my opinion secondary skill learning should give you +50%/+100%/+150% experience gain and a specialist should give an extra +50% on top of the other bonuses. That should make this skill viable
If I'm not mistaken, 20%/45%/75% would be about +1 level per level invested in learning.
Which would translate to, drop a secondary skill for +3 stats, and +3 level to hero specialty. It could already be worth it as a semi-free later level skill in a game where you won't maximize every secondary skill anyway.
Alternatively, one could also adjust so it is more than +1 level for each level invested in learning. I think it is after level 10 the difference between levels is always ~20%, meaning that: Quote:
learning percentage value = 1.2^[learning expertise + level adjustment]
would be the formula.
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 07, 2023 05:27 PM |
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Edited by heymlich at 17:37, 07 Nov 2023.
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It would still be an unwanted skill since it delays the development of more important secondary skills, especially in situations where there is not much experience to gain. And +3 primary stats are nothing, really.
The issue here is, that learning only affects the experience you gain after you got learning. So, if you get it late, it provides far less than the mentioned 75% of your total XP. If you get it early this is not the case, however it will still delay more important things. It matters, when you get expert earth or air, you want that as early as possible.
The 150% seem to be more reasonable to me, I would at least consider it. I would probably still avoid it on very large maps
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 07, 2023 05:46 PM |
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No, in the WoG, Paladin gets 150% experience points is worthless same as Soul Eater casts Animate Dead.. Other commanders are useful.. So H4 must also be extra bonus, if using a Stealth.. But you don't understand hero experience level and Primary Skills in Quest Guard or Seer's Hut..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2023 10:12 PM |
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LordCameron said:
Just had the idea that if you right click on the learning skill you can remove it from your Hero.
Do you think this would fix it? The percentages would still need to be figured out, but I really think this would do it.
Well, kinda. But not necessary in a way one could hope.
In it's current state, Learning isn't useless, sadly that's too nicely put. No, Learning is pretty more or less harmless to your hero. This is because the most important part of the level up are the secondary skill points, and if you pick a skill that's useless or doing basically nothing, the secondary skill points will be put on waste, and are not actively making your hero stronger.
If you have two skills that are not fully mastered yet (basic-advanced), once the player gains a level, the skill to be improved will be picked at random. Now, if the player has something like Basic Wisdom - Basic Learning, it can take up to 3 level ups before the player can get access to Advanced Wisdom. In terms of hero building, that's a massive bottle neck, especially when picking up few treasure chests are no longer granting a level up. All magic schools and wisdom vary very between their levels, and they're key skills in every games, so having something else in the build tree can just really mess up the whole build, really pushing back your hero's power spike.
In terms of design, Learning as secondary skill isn't really making sense. Instances that could give 5,10 or 15% of bonus experience during the course of the game would very welcome, but tying up that to the secondary skill tree just wasn't a good call. It's a difficult skill to balance, as there's no telling when the player will roll the skill.
Your suggestion could somewhat help the situation, but the most optimal play would be just always delete Learning whenever it's possible. The added benefit would be about having even less Learning around, and it would definetly not increase it's pick rate. There wouldn't be much of a reason even keeping the basic learning in order to gain a bit more experience, in case you forget or gain accidently more experience than expected, as you should never acquire advanced learning.
I've personally suggested in the past that Learning could keep it's current design and also hand out primary stat points.
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2023 12:12 AM |
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Edited by heymlich at 00:13, 08 Nov 2023.
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Hourglass said:
I've personally suggested in the past that Learning could keep it's current design and also hand out primary stat points.
This is a good line of thought.
In fact, since learning does nothing but add primary skill poins, it could be re-modeled into a multiplier for primary skills. That way it would not matter, when it is acquired. Rather, it would be reasonable to acquire it late, since a multiplier works best with high numbers. Make it 5/10/15% to all primary stats. The early gameplay will remain as ist is, since you will still go for magic schools. But once you have all stats around 20 points, 15% will be 3 to all stats. That might be better than getting ballistics or intelligence as your seventh or eighth skill.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 08, 2023 01:03 AM |
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That would be too easy, you get learning in 8th position and get +15% to all skills. WoG handles it well, learning expert gives 50% chance of extra primary point on level up. That way, you have to make an early choice and pick learning as soon as possible. Getting it once you are level 15 or so would become worthless since you won't level a lot further, so no bonus.
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2023 03:22 AM |
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Well, the thought was to make the skill meaningful without changing the early game too much.
A skill that shows its true power only late in the game, but must be picked up as early as possible, in my opinion is not well designed. Especially since it is outside of your control, when the skill will be offerd. You want it early but you cannot pick it. When it is finally given to you it is as useless as it has always been. This one actually seems to be even more frustrating than the current waiting-for-earth game.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 08, 2023 09:30 AM |
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Yes Learning for small, medium and XL map, you get extra Primary Skills in the WoG.. If we're talking about PS, then not only Quest Guard and Seer's Hut, but also you can't find artifacts or military PS i.e. Arenas, etc on the map enough.. My Surrealistic Land (WoG/ERA), you need Learning from area level 1 to area level 2, in there Market of Time, what you can remove your Learning.. or you keep your Learning yet, because Market of Time doesn't disappear.. Learning for Elementalists too, so a very good.. Cleric, etc doesn't need Learning.. Then might Heroes with Learning is OP.. Remember it, if you play WoG/ERA in some day..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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