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| Thread: Witch civ do you like |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 05:00 PM |
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Edited By: Wub on 24 Sep 2002
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Another drawback of Might
Good that we agree Daikon 
But when I reread what I have written, I realize I still left one of the most important drawbacks of Might out.
To compensate for their lack of magic, Might can build (like I said before) a breeding pens. But: other alignments can construct another building instead of the breeding pens too. For example, nature can build a neat creature portal, increasing weekly creature growth by 700 experience. Or Death can construct an undead transformer which can give you additional skeletons, ghosts, vampires or bone dragons(!).
On the other hand, an advantage for Might of not needing to build mage guilds is that it can construct another building instead: the magic dampener. Every magic dampener gives your heroes a chance of 10% to resist hostile spells that are cast upon them. What a great building! Hmmm...not really.
And now the point I am trying to make (besides the drawbacks I already mentioned in my previous post). Might gets a breeding pens which 'should' compensate for the lack of magic, but what does it get to compensate for structures such as the creature portal and the undead transformer? Other alignments can build these structures instead of a breeding pens...
Oh of course, they get a magic dampener instead of a creature portal. How balancing!
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted September 27, 2002 12:39 AM |
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I have to say I like all the towns I've played so far. I still haven't gotten around to nature, but I was late at getting going with the game because I had to upgrade my computer to run it.
Personally, I think might has gotten undeservably bashed. I find might can be very powerful. Granted not having magic takes some getting used to, but once you work past the dependence on magic in battle they can be a lot of fun. I have to agree I find the berserkers annoying. On the other hand, they do tend to draw attention away from my more valuable troops. Gotta love the cannon fodder.
My favorite at the moment is Order, but I think that might change once I have played nature. Although, half of that is just because I'm really outdoorsy and love nature. I find that in most cases people tend to favor the castles that best fit there personality. It's probably because they think best in that mode; therefore, they develop the best strategy for that group. In the end I have found the towns very balanced. I can play any type so far with equal success.
On a side note, I just can't bring myself to call them civ's. I have been playing the civ series far too long. Whenever, I read or hear civ I think the civilization series, even when talking about historic civilizations. I guess that's a sure sign that I have been playing that series far too much. Oh well, it's still fun.
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2002 05:55 PM |
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Advanced strategies for the Death alignment.
introduction
Lately, I have been bashing the Life and Might alignment a lot, especially in this thread. That is because either I cannot exploit their strengths well enough, or because they just are inferior to other alignments. However, playing with Death suits me very well and I guess I can obtain the best results with that alignment. That's why I decided to write this guide. Please note that this post is not meant to be perfect, because it is purely based upon my experience with the Death alignment. I tried to implement what we know by now from multiplayer, but keep in mind that our knowledge of the game is still developing. I hope to hear if these strategies for Death are good and what should be improved. Enjoy!
Playing small maps with Death
Whenever playing Death, you will be able to get a very quick start and a lead on your opponent will probably be the case very often. The key to this start are mainly 2 units: imps and vampires. Now you might be wondering why imps are so good. Well, their adventure map movement makes all of the difference, combined with the fact that they are very expendable. Imps can effectively scout and pick up resources. Often, you can even snatch away resources that are guarded by neutral monsters. You will lose your imp, but as I said: they are expendable! Also giving your hero 1 imp will greatly improve his or her movement, allowing you to flag both your ore and wood mines in the first day.
In other words: imps will give your economy a great boost. That boost often is great enough to build vampires at day 2, even at impossible difficulty! Just build cerberi at day 1 and a mansion at day 2. And once you have your vampire dwelling, buy those 2 vampires, give them to your hero and start wreaking havoc. You will be able to take out most level 1 creatures without losses (again, even at impossible). This will further improve your economy and your hero will gain experience quickly as well. And: you will still be moving with that incredible speed of 28 movement per day! You can further improve your economy by hiring a lord to increase your creature growth AND increasing your income. I think you will probably have a lead on your opponent by then.
Playing large maps with Death
Many of the principles that I noted before are the same on large maps. I can still advise you to send out your imps real quickly (sometimes I even send out 12 imps on day 1!). Also, go for vampires. Now I know that some people really
like venom spawn and I must admit that they are not bad, but you really need an army to support them. You will not move so fast therefore and I even think that Death can thrive well without a shooter too. I'll come back to this later. What is different from small maps, is that on large maps you are encouraged to build ghosts rather than cerberi. Ghost will not slow you down later in the game and they nicely stack with the ghosts that you required with necromancy. Admittedly, you will not get vampires before day 3 that way, but on a big map that one day makes less difference than on a small map.
Im the begin game you should clear your area with the vampires as I suggested before. But when the game progresses, you will need additional troops. Now here is where Death really shines: all creatures that you have by then (imps, ghosts, vampires and bone dragons/devils), will give your army a movement of 28! Compare that with other alignments, especially Life and Might: Might has this slow cyclops with a movement of 19 and life has pikemen/squires/crossbowmen/monks with a movement of 18/19. Your army moves something like 50% faster and as many of us know: mobility is the key to conquest. An excellent strategian can just outmaneuver opposing armies! And Death is not just fast on the adventure map. On the combat map imps, ghosts, vampires and bone dragons all have a movement of 12 or higher. And they are flying! That is the reason why I think your army doesn't need venom spawns too badly: you are sufficiently mobile anyway.
And that's not all. I would take a necromancer and let him focus upon the necromancy skill. You will most likely be able to get Grandmaster necromancy fairly quickly and then you will get 2 vampires for every combat! Imagine that if you fight just a measly four combats weekly, you will acquire almost three times the number of vampires that you can buy in your town. And there still is more! If you have sufficient money, you can buy creatures and convert them to undead in your undead transformer. By the way, you can create bone dragons in an undead transformer too, by putting in black dragons or faerie dragons.
But yet there is more. I think that Death can acquire the best heroes available. Of course, you should buy that lord early, but having both a necromancer AND a death knight really helps too. You may even want to recruit a thief, who can sneak past enemies on another part of the map, thus increasing your economy. And if that thief learns pathfinding, you can let it join your main army now and then to increase their army movement even more!
A critical reader may wonder why you should want to take lower level units such as imps and ghosts in your main army as well, even though they don't slow you down. Well, they all are useful! Imps are awful in close combat, but their ability to steal mana from opponent spellcasters will not only give you a steady income of spellpoints, when you drain 2 spellpoints from an angel for example, his spellcasting specialty will be completely disabled. Also, you can attack an opponent with seven stacks of 1 imp first and keep repeating that until a hero's spell points are completely drained (thanx to Nidhgrin for this tip). It only works when the line of sight of the imps isn't blocked, though. But the most important reason to include imps in your army, is that you can send them out anytime to scout a new area, possibly taking up resources. If you use them for that reason, don't let them fight too much to spare them. Once again: imps are key units.
Taking ghosts with you is very beneficial too, since they make great sacrificial stacks. One ghost can inflict aging to even the biggest enemy stack, halving movement and decreasing attack and defense skill. They are also great to shield your heroes or you can use them as cannon fodder. And again: they also move with 28 hexes per turn!
I think I said enough about vampires right now, but let's spend some more time to bone dragons and devils. You may have noticed that I didn't advise you to build either dragons or devils. That is because I haven't decided which units are best. But I think that both are among the top of level 4 creatures. I mean, just look at bone dragons. A flyer with 275 hitpoints? Decent attack and defense skills and doing great damage? Mind spell immunity? No retaliation?! That is hard to argue with. And then devils who may not be so 'strong' but have supreme mobility allowing to slay heroes real fast and teleport over castle walls!? Really good as well!
I have been very positive about Death in this post. Aren't there any negative points? Hardly, in my opinion. Or it must be that they depend much upon their special abilities in the battlefield. For example, when facing an Order army with dragon golems and gold golems, you cannot use the terror specialty of the bone dragons and neither the aging attack and the life drain specialty. If you combine that order army with powerful order magic, this may be a way to defeat Death. But on the other hand, you can hire an order mage yourself and giving him some great magic. You may also be able to outmaneuver an order army or just build up faster. No, in my opinion Death is really strong, but I like to hear what others think.
Short summary
The Death alignment can build their dwellings fast, has really useful units, can move with an incredible speed over the adventure map and has great heroes. I have yet to discover significant weaknesses.
~Edit by Nidhgrin: Off topic, Bonus applied. See next page for more info.~
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Klauts
Famous Hero
lost in a mourning hall!
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posted September 29, 2002 06:45 PM |
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Alright Wub.HAIL Death.
The only thing bad (but not very bad ) is their 2nd lvl unit they will become useless after the vamps are built.(Ghosts may stay longer[aging] but that will make the mansion impossible to built fast.
About might,it's not that bad it has kewl l1 creatures and the harpies are good 2(citadel will have uses later in the game),cyclopes are one of the best shooters in the game,and the both 4th level unit are great.The barbarian is a great hero(just think of a lv 30 barb with gm combat,melle,mres with a soul stealer,amantidine armor and shield,and visited some rubys)
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted October 08, 2002 06:02 AM |
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Or Death can construct an undead transformer which can give you additional skeletons, ghosts, vampires or bone dragons(!)
Just a little correction here, you can't get bone dragons with undead transformer. Thats the way the undead transformer works:
LV 1 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 2 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 3 creatures becomes ghosts
LV 4 creatures becomes vampires
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2002 12:42 PM |
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LV 1 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 2 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 3 creatures becomes ghosts
LV 4 creatures becomes vampires
True, but you can get bone dragons out of your undead transformer. Just put faerie dragons or black dragons in. You get 98 bone dragons for 100 faeries and 1 bone dragon for 1 black dragon.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 08, 2002 04:29 PM |
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Death vs. Chaos
Thanks wub for the death alignment strategy guide. I've used it, and it's effective as you describe it.
But, I have to say, I still prefer chaos. Chaos banditos can be used like you use your impos, only more effectively, because I can send them all over the map, unseen, and pick up goodies in other people's territory, and while the necromancer's spell power at high levels is superb, the sorcerer's magic is effective at all levels. Plus, the thief class rocks. Scouting allows you to see more of the map, and pathfinding allows you to move your entire army farther. With a good thief, I can chase down any weaker army that's trying to run away, and my scouting ability allows me a better chance of seeing them when they try to run.
Here's one more major advantage to chaos. It's hard to lose lvl. 4 creatures. In the mid-game, when you've got only one or two lvl. 4 creatures in your army, it's easy to lose all the other lvl. 4 creatures except the black dragon. With 400 h.p., they're really tough to kill, and with their complete resistance to magic, opponents are more likely to target other creatures. So, while they're expensive, you're not losing them like other alignments lose their expensive units.
No, for my money choas is still the best. I purchace minotaurs, then nightmares, then black dragons. The minotaur is a missle-blocking unit. I position them in front of a powerful missle unit, usually my thief, who has become a ranger by 5th lvl., giving him/her archery skill, and they've got a good chance of completely blocking any retalliation against my thief's missle attacks.
I split my nightmares into 2 group and place them in front of my orcs and my sorcerer. Nightmares are healthy, 110 h.p., and they're big, so they block missle retalliation from a wide range of directions. My sorcerer and my orcs fire away, and the nightmares absorb damage, and do so very well. The nightmares also cast terror, and with them split, I can immobilize two enemy groups while I pick off the rest of my opponent's army. The black dragon is, of course, the most powerful unit in the game, and I use them to attack any groups that charge into the middle of the field on the first round. Then, on the second round, they fly into my opponent's missle unit ranks, get next to them, kill them, and prevent those units from getting retalliation against my own missle.
Plus, the chaos town, itself, is the best in my opinion. With the battle academy, all my heroes are starting at 2nd lvl. My rogue's guild gets the crossbow, eliminating range penalties for both my heroes and my orcs. I get leather armor too, which provides some defense, but doesn't slow anybody down, or cause my spellcaster to use more spell points when casting.
The major weakness with chaos, imho, is its lack of a high level missle unit. Of course, with all respect to medusa who, of course, loves the chaos medusas, I don't like them. I prefer minotaurs at 2nd lvl. I want the blocking ability, and I like having a melee damage-dealing unit near my heroes in the event that somebody charges my back line. Orcs, of course, are weak at long ranges, but very effective when your opponent charges you, which the computer usually does, and which opponents _must_ do if you play chaos like I do. The only units I charge with are black dragons, and unless my opponent charges me, my sorcerer will do serious damage to their army. Still, I need a powerful, high level missle unit in order to make chaos work just right, and, usually, I like capturing a death town and getting venom spawn. I'll settle for the addition of waspworts out of a nature town's creature portal. Cyclopses, of course, out of a might town, will work, but either way, I want just one more missle unit to make chaos complete. I get rid of my orcs and use them for home defense after I acquire a better missle unit.
How's that for 2 or 3 cents on the issue? Of course, all the towns are good if you know how to use them. H3, however, trained me to use the dungeon, and my love for that town has carried over into H4. Can you tell? 
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2002 02:14 AM |
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Edited By: Wub on 8 Oct 2002
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Thanks for the sensible response, Laelth. It's nice to read a well thought out post with which I can agree most of the time. Still, I'd like to give some comments. They may seem like many in number, but I really don't disagree with you often. But hopefully we can perfectionize our chaos skills.
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Chaos banditos can be used like you use your impos, only more effectively, because I can send them all over the map, unseen, and pick up goodies in other people's territory
Bandits and imps are, along with sprites, definitely the best scouts in the game. But I don't know which is superior, because imps move 5 hexes further and are slightly more expendable. They can also speed up your hero to a 28 movement early on (very important!), unlike bandits. On the other hand, bandits have stealth which sometimes may prove very useful. But if level 1 neutral creatures are scarce, I definitely prefer imps over bandits as scouts.
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and while the necromancer's spell power at high levels is superb, the sorcerer's magic is effective at all levels.
I agree that especially low level death spells have their flaws. I miss some beneficial spells for example. But I find chaos magic somewhat limited too. Almost all chaos spells focus on doing (direct) damage, which isn't really versatile. Also, lower level direct damage spells become nearly useless when you have learnt higher level spells. I'm not too big a fan of both kinds of magic, though I don't think they are inferior.
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Plus, the thief class rocks.
Agreed, especially on larger maps. But death can hire thieves too, while chaos cannot recruit lords. Which I think is a setback.
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Here's one more major advantage to chaos. It's hard to lose lvl. 4 creatures.
A very good point. Again I agree, although it is not so great as it seems. Let's say I build bone dragons with death.
When I have 4000 gold, I can recruit my first bone dragon and let it wreak havoc. You have to wait until you have 8000 gold.
Two bone dragons can absorb more combat damage than 1 black dragon, especially ranged damage. So in some cases it could happen that you lose 1 black dragon, while I lose only 1 bone dragon.
Necro armies are very adept at winning without losses, especially with vampires in the team. And the no retaliation attack of the bone dragon can severely decrease thier losses. This unlike chaos, who will have a hard time to kill somewhat bigger neutral monsters with a flawless victory (when choosing minotaurs). I am not saying that a death army is stronger because of this reason! Still, you have a point that black dragons are easy to keep alive.
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No, for my money choas is still the best. I purchace minotaurs, then nightmares, then black dragons. The minotaur is a missle-blocking unit. I position them in front of a powerful missle unit, usually my thief, who has become a ranger by 5th lvl., giving him/her archery skill, and they've got a good chance of completely blocking any retalliation against my thief's missle attacks.
Interesting, because I usually go for medusas and nightmares (and black dragons). In the early game, I use 4 stacks of 1 nightmare, a bunch of medusas, some orcs and a sorcerer, which can very effectively take out neutral stacks (without losses, impossible creature stack size). I also find in medusas the 'high' level shooter that lacks in your opinion, even though it is a level 2 unit. Another reason to build medusas over minotaurs, is that you do not have to waste a day with your town to build a thieves gauntlet, since the sorcerers guild level 1 is often pre-built.
I also use my thief differently, by making him purely an economical hero. My experience is that teaching him combat costs too many levels for the amount of damage he can do. He takes up an army slot, while he can't do considerable damage, in my opinion. But it is interesting to hear your strategy.
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Plus, the chaos town, itself, is the best in my opinion. With the battle academy, all my heroes are starting at 2nd lvl. My rogue's guild gets the crossbow, eliminating range penalties for both my heroes and my orcs.
I find the battle academy especially good to give thiefs their hard to earn first level. Once they have advanced stealth, they can often stand on thier own. Yet my economy often does not allow this structure to be built real soon. And are you really sure that the crossbow also eliminates range penalties for orcs? I thought it didn't.
Having heard your strategies, I still think that death has the edge. One reason for this, is that you will have to build 2 additional structures to get your level 3 unit (in your case the thieves gauntlet and the caravan). On small maps, I have my vampires in two days, meaning that I am two days ahead.
Another reason is that your army is very slow with orcs in the team. A movement of 19(?), while I move with a movement of 28. Believe me, this makes a HUGE difference. Sure, you can sacrifice the stealth ability of the thief to join the party and increase movement, but on large maps I can do that too.
And finally, I think that my army can definitely compete with yours. Especially when I reach grandmaster necromancy at level 9 (or something) and I can reinforce my army with 15 vampires weekly (this is ridiculous btw, if you ask me). Not to mention the nobility of my lord and possibly the undead transformer.
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How's that for 2 or 3 cents on the issue? Of course, all the towns are good if you know how to use them. H3, however, trained me to use the dungeon, and my love for that town has carried over into H4. Can you tell?
Well, those 2 cents are definitely worth a dime. Even though I think that not all towns necessarily are balanced beforehand and that the map you play on can make some alignments an inferior choice. Still, I won't deny that there are some towns that I definitely like less than Chaos.
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2002 02:46 PM |
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My rogue's guild gets the crossbow, eliminating range penalties for both my heroes and my orcs.
And are you really sure that the crossbow also eliminates range penalties for orcs? I thought it didn't.
And you are right Wub ! Crossbow eliminates only hero's ranged penaltys ! The only artifact which can eliminate all ranged creatures penaltys is - "Sniper's Crossbow"
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 10, 2002 02:59 AM |
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Death vs. Chaos, cont.
Did I say that? Whoops. No, clearly, crossbow does not eliminate range penalties for orcs.
BTW, wub, thanks for the reply. And I agree that orcs slow down the army. As I said in my previous post, they're good to start with, but they're slow, and should be replaced with a better missle unit later.
I'm not sure I follow your argument about losing dragons, though. I hardly ever lose black dragons unless I'm engaged in a monumental battle. Playing death, I lose devils occasionally (I'm not fond of the boney). Please clarify.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted October 10, 2002 06:06 AM |
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Quote:
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LV 1 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 2 creatures becomes skeletons
LV 3 creatures becomes ghosts
LV 4 creatures becomes vampires
True, but you can get bone dragons out of your undead transformer. Just put faerie dragons or black dragons in. You get 98 bone dragons for 100 faeries and 1 bone dragon for 1 black dragon.
That's amazing!!! I didn't know that. Not that I would like to trade the blackies for the bones, but I liked the idea that the bone dragons really were dragons in life... thanks Wub, as always your wisdowm proves to be high.
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 11, 2002 01:35 AM |
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And I agree that orcs slow down the army. As I said in my previous post, they're good to start with, but they're slow, and should be replaced with a better missle unit later.
Agreed, I would consider to drop the orcs out of your army too. But that will not improve your adventure map movement! Minotaurs move with a speed of 19 too. In fact, if you want fast movement with chaos, you are limited to an efreet/black dragon combo. But then you will move with a speed of 28!
Maybe you wonder why I keep emphasizing that adventure map movement. Well, it's one of the essential things that I base my judgement of alignments on. You see, if a chaos army has a movement of 19 and a death army a movement of 28, a death army moves 50% faster. This means it can clean the adventure map 50% faster, the heroes will gain 50% more experience, you will get 50% more artifacts (so probably better ones too), you may flag 50% more mines, acquire 50% more treasure chests....the list goes on. I'd even choose that efreet/black dragon combo if I could use it effectively in combat.
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I'm not sure I follow your argument about losing dragons, though. I hardly ever lose black dragons unless I'm engaged in a monumental battle. Playing death, I lose devils occasionally (I'm not fond of the boney). Please clarify.
Well, I wasn't saying you were wrong with your argument, just that it didn't matter as much as it seems. But in fact the whole discussion isn't too relevant because I hardly ever lose bone dragons/devils to neutral creatures, just as you hardly ever lose black dragons to neutral creatures. In fact, I think that a knowing player will never suffer severe losses against neutral armies unless it is really necessary. So when black dragons and bone dragons/devils clash, the ratio will probably still be 1:2.
I was thinking about what you said about changing your thief hero into a ranger at level 5. Does that mean you only give him combat skills from then on? I would at least give your ranger expert stealth, so he can sneak past level 2 stacks. This can really boost your economy (and the experience that the hero gains). I'm saying this because you will probably get expert stealth at level 6, so you can become a ranger at level 7 (though I am not sure if you usually get the combat skill offered by then).
I hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to tell me because it is great to have some critical responses on what I write (it can only improve my skills).
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 12, 2002 01:10 AM |
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Death vs. Chaos, cont.
Hi wub,
I agree with your statement that an army's rate of movement across the map for the reasons you mention and others. For example, I want to be able to catch and kill my opponents or run away to a safe castle when appropriate. Greater movement allows this. What I didn't realize, I guess is how fast the death army is, as a whole. I always collect skeletons playing death, and I tend to keep them in the army because I get so many of them. And they're very slow. I suppose if you shuck off the skellies and keep only fast units, then the death army would be much faster than the chaos army I create.
But I hadn't noticed the difference, probably because the thief class has pathfinding which increases the movement of the whole army, compensating for the slower units. Which leads me to respond to the question you asked regarding how I advance the thief class. I take combat and archery when they're offered, but I take no other combat skills. A grandmaster archery Ranger is a tough missle unit. Otherwise, I focus on scouting and pathfinding, just to speed up the army. In fact, I keep the main thief with the army, making stealth less valuable to me. The thief can also use potions when appropriate, because my sorcerer is firing away every round. I usually hire a second thief that I keep separate from the army, "improving the economy," as you say. This hero focuses on scouting and stealth during level-ups.
As for your assessment of losses, I'm not so sure. The ratio _should_ be 2:1, but I have my doubts. My dragons being completely invulnerable to magic, and their ability to sometimes (when my opponent makes a tactical error) hit two stacks at the same time, usually gives me a 3:1 or better kill ratio against my opponents' lvl. 4 creatures.
All for now. (Good discussion, thanks.)
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2002 02:22 AM |
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Thanks you too for the discussion, Laelth. Let's see what I can add.
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I suppose if you shuck off the skellies and keep only fast units, then the death army would be much faster than the chaos army I create.
That's right, get rid of those skellies! They are a burden to have in your main army. I only use them sometimes in the early game to fight the resources together to get vampires (if the map is very resource poor). If I can plan it logistically, I also let them sometimes support my vampires in the early game against non living stacks. But usually I just put them in my castle to defend against those annoying thieves that I can't see approaching. And for that use I generally find them sufficiently powerful.
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probably because the thief class has pathfinding which increases the movement of the whole army, compensating for the slower units.
I was thinking, if you want to speed up your chaos army, but don't have a good thief available yet, it could make sense to hire a druid and let him cast pathfinding daily.
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Which leads me to respond to the question you asked regarding how I advance the thief class. I take combat and archery when they're offered, but I take no other combat skills. A grandmaster archery Ranger is a tough missle unit. Otherwise, I focus on scouting and pathfinding, just to speed up the army.
An interesting idea that I would consider if I would have chosen to take combat skills for my thief, is to give him melee instead of archery and build medusas instead of minotaurs. A tank hero can bear severe punishment, especially when pumped up with immortality potions, while medusas may very well be more effective than a hero with GM archery. I usually don't use this tactic, but it's interesting.
Also, I figured that a thief has to gain quite some levels before reaching both GM combat and GM archery. I usually finish my games against the computer a lot earlier. If it isn't too big a map, I won't have a hero beyond level 10. And I don't find it effective to have one anyway, because I rather invest in a new hero who can level up a lot faster. Therefore I figured that a chaos army may be better of with an archer hero, who reaches those skills a lot faster. Meanwhile, the thief can keep exploring and utilizing his gained experience on scouting skills. It's just an idea that I need to test out some time.
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As for your assessment of losses, I'm not so sure. The ratio _should_ be 2:1, but I have my doubts. My dragons being completely invulnerable to magic, and their ability to sometimes (when my opponent makes a tactical error) hit two stacks at the same time, usually gives me a 3:1 or better kill ratio against my opponents' lvl. 4 creatures.
I think those are two different discussions. On the one hand, there is the matter that your opponent may not have twice as many 4th level units as you have black dragons when the final battle begins. On the other hand, there is the discussion that black dragons can kill more than twice their number of 'regular' 4th level creatures. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you.
Anyway, I usually attack hardly any large (level 4)creature stacks, because by the time I am ready for that, I already decided the outcome of the game (either positively or negatively). After all, what is the use of attacking level 4 stacks, if you think you can defeat your opponent? Therefore, I mostly fight against level 2 neutral monsters and I am not likely to lose level 4 creatures against them. That's why I think that the ratio of black dragons and (for example) bone dragons will still be 2:1.
Lastly, something about chaos magic. I find especially the mana flare and the misfortune spell to be very useful. I wish Death had them. Because mana flare can let you cast 2-3 times as many low level spells. Misfortune lets your army do +50% damage to the poor victim and it increases the amount of damage that your direct damage spells do as well by 50%! Together, these two spells make your sorcerer quite powerful in larger battles if she has time to cast them. And these spells are easy to get.
I am still thinking of ways to speed up the chaos army or to implement an efreet/black dragon combo successfully. Any ideas? Meanwhile I will see what I can come up with.
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Tortoise
Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
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posted October 14, 2002 03:04 AM |
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Laelth i used to lose devils, but then i found the miracle spell Vampiric touch. Its a beauty.
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All living things have a history. The history of the Tortoise is long and rich.
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BlackAngel
Hired Hero
ArchAngel of death Honor
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posted October 14, 2002 05:30 PM |
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Long live the NECRO...
They where the best in heroes3 ....and they are the best in homm4.....i think that you can`t lose any game if you are playng NECRO ....and you can make a thief too ......that`s good
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Death is a good thing for some of us. By-BlackAngel
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted October 16, 2002 03:30 AM |
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Quote:
Laelth i used to lose devils, but then i found the miracle spell Vampiric touch. Its a beauty.
Works wonders with them, and with the Bone Dragons too.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 17, 2002 12:47 AM |
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Death vs. Chaos, cont.
Hi all,
Been busy for a few days (mainly working on a new map).
What can I add? "Vampiric Touch"--great spell, admittedly, but when playing death I tend to use my necromancer to cast mass curse, or something like that, something that affects all my troops, or all my opponent's (plague is nice).
wub, as for not fighting 4th lvl. creatures, yes. When you're fighting 2nd lvl. neutral creatures, you shouldn't lose any of your lvl. 4 creatures. But when it comes to an epic battle, player vs. player, death vs. chaos, my argument is that in such a battle, if our armies are evenly matched (you spent 100,000 gold on yours and I spent 100,000 gold on mine, for example) chaos is going to lose fewer black dragons than death will lose either devils or bone dragons, and of course, this is as it should be ... because black dragons cost twice as much. Your argument, as I understood it, is that in such a battle, the ratio should be 2:1 (because black dragons cost twice as much). Did I misunderstand you? Anyway, my argument is that in such a battle the ratio will be more like 3:1 or even 4:1, because those blackies are immune to magic and have 400 h.p. each. This, at least, has been my experience.
Now, throw in vampiric touch, and it might be a different story .
Cheers everyone,
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2002 02:30 AM |
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A battle of Death vs Chaos
You understood me right, Laelth: I was still talking about the 2:1 ratio before combat. But now the question is if 1 black dragon is better than 2 bone dragons, isn't it? Or: if 50 black dragons are better than 100 bone dragons. So we are talking battle tactics here.
First I must say that a game is most often already decided on the adventure map, due to (for example) GM necromancy, a fast building tree and fast adventure map movement.
Second I must say that it is hard to speak of a 'kill ratio of 3:1/4:1' of bone dragons and black dragons. The reason is that I am likely let my vampires primarily attack your blackies, since the terror specialty of the bone dragons doesn't work on them. In other words, you should take the kill ratio of other units into account too, because bone dragons and black dragons don't necessarily fight toe to toe.
But still I can make a valid and maybe useful comparison between black dragons and bone dragons of course (growth is included). Here it comes:
Black Dragon: magic immunity, breath attack, +2 speed, +25% movement, 3% weaker-94% stronger.
Bone Dragon: terror, skeletal, undead.
Note: magic immunity, breath attack and undead specialty are somewhat of a mixed blessing.
For a (theoretical and somewhat mathematical) explanation of how this creature comparison works, I refer to this thread.
I'd say: judge for yourself which you find better.
About the vampiric touch issue: If I had it, it would be the spell to cast (on the bone dragons) in a death vs chaos battle. Since black dragons are immune to magic and death focuses on detrimental spells, vampiric touch is one of the few valuable spells left for me to cast. The chance that I have it is very small though, since it takes a really high level necromancer to have both GM necromancy and master death magic.
A chaos sorcerer has the same problem with the magic immunity of the dragons, so casting 'cat reflexes' is no option. Instead, casting 'mass misfortune' should be seriously considered. Or maybe inferno, to kill the few sacrificial stacks of ghost that I have (unlike you want to have your nightmares aged). Just a suggestion, I like to hear other people's opinions...
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted October 24, 2002 12:04 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree, Devils make ideal hero killers due to their fast movement in the battlefield even if you have to sacrifice them for doing so.
Well, it's not that easy to kill a hero. What about immortality potions? You risk sacrificing your devil stack for nothing. Am I missing the point here?
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