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| Thread: Are random maps fair? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Mutant_Ninj0
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 25, 2001 02:28 PM |
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Are random maps fair?
Hello all,
I'm a big fan of TOH and HOMM3 but for some time I've been playing random maps against other players online. I must admit that random maps evolves way too much around luck and that I've been losing/winning (mostly losing) because :
- opponent has more towns of is alignement;
- Dragon Utopia are closer to his towns
- Pendora boxes containing Dimension Door, Armageddon
- More and harder monsters on my side
- etc.
I think random maps should be banned from TOH gamming because on a scale from 1 to 10 you get 3/10 or less for having a balanced map.
Mutant_Ninj0 (TOH) aka PointyLeader (Zone)
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2nd best is 1st loser...
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 05:14 PM |
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Random Maps
If you do not like random maps then do not play them.
Many players like random maps these days, it seems. Just go the Zone and look at all the room descriptions that have Random Map in the description.
I for one, only play random maps. Why, because i get the most enjoyment out of them.
Sure, sometimes they can be unbalanced. I have played in over 50 random maps and have not seen too many that are grossly unbalanced. My opponent gets the occasional Earth or Air box early in game and Utopias are not in your area.
One must learn to adapt to these things. Most maps that have many Pandoras Boxes have enough boxes for both players and its just a matter of being able to get as many boxes as possible. Hoping to get lucky and finding the one that has the spells you are looking for.
Utopias unfair? Well if you have the Utopias in your area and your opponent has none ( i have only seen that once or twice) sure that is unfair. But how many TOH maps have you played on that have exactly the same amount of Utopias for each player. For your utopia, you get Bag of Gold, Dead Mans Boots and a Shield that you already have, and your opponent gets Lions Shield, Titans Cuirass, etc....
Is this not just as unfair?
Responding to your comment that random should be banned.... i think that they should not and will not be banned.
The Beauty of TOH is that rarely does one have to play a game that they dont like. If you dont like random, dont play em. If you dont like this rule or that rule, dont play em.
Just make a room with settings you want and wait for someone to ask to join you. As i said before, I play random exclusively and never have to wait more than 20 minutes at most, for a TOH game in the zone.
Ironmlh
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 09:13 PM |
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random maps are fair when you win and unfair when you lose.
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I will not lose.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted May 25, 2001 09:55 PM |
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lol
Thats all too true Jb  as can be said for any map 
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 10:10 PM |
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Heroes is mostly luck anyway, random maps just spread out the luck factors with the idea that the more they are, they will probably balance out in the end. Sometimes they don't, so you must accept the loss, most times they do.
They are just something fresh from most the common heroes maps which in my opinion have even more luck than random maps. You take and open map like BFH with no relics and few experience boosters and once again the game is mostly luck, because the game will mostly depend on you mage guild and on the main hero you got at the beginning.
You take a style map like Battlemania or Hourglass and again game mostly depends on Relics or your ability to get diplo.
You take a style map like Supreme Ruler or Desert Wat, and again game mostly depends on you Utopia artifacts and the majors you find.
In my opinion these factors are very very narrow and if your opponent gets lucky and you don't you have no other options but to concede. Sure sometimes you can pull out the win, but that is rare.
Sure random maps have a ton of luck, but more widespread, most times i can find solutions to what my opponent got on random maps, while on most toh maps there is not enough room and once they get the better arts or spells forget about it.
Random maps also force you to use all knowledge of heroes in every possible way, and don't let you run basic strategies over and over like most TOH maps do. If you don't like to play them, that is fine. But making a statement that they should be banned and they suck just shows that you either have played 1 game where you got whopped. Or you just don't know how to play, your opponent fully took you out and you are just one more person who blames that on the map, like so many like to do. Blame it on your own faultiness.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 26, 2001 02:39 AM |
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speaking of luck......
Too many complain that heroes is too much luck. Like I've said before, then go play chess! For a turn-based strategy game, or realtime strategy game for that matter, heroes is by far the least luck based and more skill based game. Relics to me are the only true disbalancing part of the game, but then again, there are many maps without relics and utopias (guess what? I prefer playing those).
Luck becomes more of an issue to me when two plateau-players face each other.
Plateau-player? Pretty much any captain+ player who has reached that maximal plateau of skills tactics and tricks of homm3 gaming.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 02:48 AM |
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I play randoms and I lose on randoms. My win loss ratio is not quite 100%, so I lose more than I win on them, but for me the issue for me is that I play them because I enjoy them. I enjoy maps too, but they are too formulaic for me. Randoms can be formulaic too, but not to the extent that some maps are, I will continue to play randoms, and I will continue to lose on them, I'm not fussed about that, because points aren't important, whats important is the enjoyment of the game
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 07:37 AM |
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I wanted to say that i fully agree with Vesuvius, heroes requires an incredible amount of skill, more than most games out there. I was talking about plateau games in my post though. When both players are pretty evenly skill mathced and know the map really well.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 07:42 AM |
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Luck
Well, in addition to relics, mage guild spells have a huge unbalancing effect, and somewhat smaller, but still signifigant is the special skills of heroes, like only one Solmyr, Thant, Deemer...etc and only a few logistics heroes and so on. Actually, my one main fear for H4 is that the added emphasis on heroes will make this worse. Since they seem to be trying to make each town individual in style of play, much more difficult to balance.
More than ths skills and stats of the heroes- the movement of heroes is most important in the game, in this regards H4 is very much more balanced since armies move without needing heroes. What I wonder about though is how the terrain will affect movement. I'd like to see as in WarlordsII&III where a certain creature added movement to a whole stack in certain terrain rather then uniformly or only on battle map. As in water elementals near a river or on the ocean, or dwarves or trogdyltes underground. Things like that to encourage more various creatures to be included in armies. I think it is somewhat detractive from the game when only you need fastest most powerful creature to win a game. Then less matter the combined arms effect of armies such as it is.
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 10:07 AM |
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As I fell in love with random maps about a year and a half ago, I've played them almost exclusively and think I can provide people with the settings that generally create the most fair/balanced/playable random maps.
Personally, I've found the following settings lead to the most fun games and I'll explain why afterwards.
1. Medium, two-level maps without water; Large one-level maps (with or without water); and somewhat less reliable, Large two-level islands.
2. At least one comp opp for each human opp - and generally not less than six players total.
3. Normal or WEAK monsters.
4. Choose your castle and/or at least choose the comp opps (and make sure they are all different types).
5. Play on Expert level so that your starting resources are limited somewhat and the comp opps are as smart as they can be.
I agree with Vesuvius (all glory and praise to Rob for creating ToH - sorry watching an old tape of the grammies for anyone that understands) about artifacts being the most unbalancing factor in the game. The two main factors that determine the level of artifacts in random maps are map size and more importantly monster strength. The larger the map the more chance you have for Relics, Dragon Utopias, Pandora's boxes, super scrolls, etc... The same holds true for higher monster strengths. While both players can agree not to use certain arts, playing weak monsters pretty much guarentees that you won't have to worry about game killing arts (though no one ever believes me on this so I'm still always playing normal or hard monsters). They also let you more easily scout the map and make it easier for others to invade your territory so you may have to plan on actually defending your castle when you're not ready (oh no). If you're worried about not having any good monsters to fight then remember that that's where the comp opps come in handy - in fact it's more fun (or more challenging at least) to fight mixed troops with spell support than just a stack of Dendroids. These same comp opps also have a habit of killing your scouts/resource gatherers early in the game so that you're not necessarily going to be able to do/build everything you normally want to do. Additionally, comp opps do things human opps won't/don't do which can force you to further alter your strategy and provide even more random elements (I've played a few ToH experts that have realized that they were going to lose to the comp opp because they didn't bother to balance their concern between me and the comp). On the negative side, occasionally a comp opp will leave its castle open for you to just walk in, but most of the time this won't happen or at least it balances out between the players. Also, by choosing different castle types for the comp opps, you minimize the chances of a human winning because he got two or more of the same castle built up for him.
All that is left then is for a player to learn what to do when he sees that his human opp has just taken her third castle while he's still defending his from that damn Purple comp.
One last thing that I've learned over the time that I've played randoms - it is so refreshing playing a map that doesn't guarentee that you are going to get the necessary mines to build your level 7 struct early. I've learned that on these maps Infernos, Necropoli, Fortresses, and Confluxes usually do well in building up the necessary structures, whereas God (to whom all glory and praise apparently belongs - thank-you Wyclef) help the Rampart and Dungeons. Yet this still leads to fun games because often times you can have four weeks worth of lower level troops vs. about two weeks of the higher levels of other towns.
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Mutant_Ninj0
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 26, 2001 07:16 PM |
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I guess you're all right guys has I need to develop more skills at this game...
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2nd best is 1st loser...
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 08:07 PM |
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Quote:
Too many complain that heroes is too much luck. Like I've said before, then go play chess! For a turn-based strategy game, or realtime strategy game for that matter, heroes is by far the least luck based and more skill based game. Relics to me are the only true disbalancing part of the game, but then again, there are many maps without relics and utopias (guess what? I prefer playing those).
Luck becomes more of an issue to me when two plateau-players face each other.
Plateau-player? Pretty much any captain+ player who has reached that maximal plateau of skills tactics and tricks of homm3 gaming.
Lol ive not seen other strategy games based on more luck than heroes, please give me a few titles. Most people are not saying theres too much luck in heroes there just saying theres a lot of it involved in nearly every aspect of the game. Heroes is based a lot on luck and also skill but dont try and say heroes uses very low ammount of luck as it doesnt. But no matter how good you are luck will always play a part in the game.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 26, 2001 10:44 PM |
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Random maps are the true heroes game. They offer the most fun alying discovery and surprises. But they should not be played for points because they not reflect any involved skill. If 3DO finds a way to impeach the host to view the created map in his directory the should be ok. I just got pumped by a cadet who placed early his main to the teleporter who leads near my main town. He can wait my report for years, or maybe he prefers I send an interesting save?
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 29, 2001 01:17 PM |
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It is good to see you posting here Vesuvius but having played a few gazillion strategy titles I have never seen a game with luck being more of a factor than heroes3.
I agree with you completely that relics are to blame and I also prefer to play maps without them.
To the original post I would say that random maps are luck based but then again heroes4 lends itself to that.
Compared to the most commonly played ToH maps which are complete crap shoots they are not really as luck based as these maps which think it is funny to have random relics laying around and have the map closed off so whoever gets the best draw will win.
I have spoken to a lot of people about why they would want to sit for 6 hours only to find the game was lost when the computer rolled the setup when there are great maps on the ToH site that require skill to play.
Many people say they enjoy luck and if that is the case then it is good these maps exist.
Really heroes is such an incredible varied game that there is something for every type of player.
If you are looking for maps based on skill I think generally there are a few staples to each one.
1) No random relics
2) If grail is on the map it must be creatively placed where both players have a chance at it.(see Spellbound map on ToH)
3) Many random towns. So each player has a chance at good units and spells (see 7 Lakes or Fire War Campaign).
3b) Also these towns become points of contention where many wars are fought over them. It's a true test of skill when your main town is not just backed up in a corner and protected. Try to defend your main town when it is surrounded by enemy towns.
It's really just a matter of those basic concepts.
Some people think that luck is eliminated by simplicity in map design like in Battle for Honor but if you get a bad draw in this map you are dead.
It is maps like this that neccesitate rules like "no hit and run, no 4th level" etc.
The map is so lacking in options that even the smallest thing like one player drawing deemer on day1 will win the game.
Although I prefer BFH style maps to HG style maps anyday I still think they are mainly luck based.
Phantom I disagree that heroes is luck. I just think the maps these days that people play are poor in strategic options.
This is due to a very large league.
Everything always comes to lowest common denominator. With this many players generally more basic maps will be most often played.
-Mocara
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tvgenie
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 05, 2001 12:18 PM |
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Random are at least unpredictable
Howdy - Why do i switched to random?
Well, i agree with some comments about how unfair a random can be.. but it's a game, it can be unfair to u or your opponent, period.
I switched to random a couple of months ago, only playing regular maps for division game or occasionaly.
1) Random maps are unpredictable, so there's always bad and nice surprises, and nobody knows the map which is cool.
2) Luck factor: yes, there's, on both sides.. it can be pretty unfair to one player but there are enough balanced to offer a fair challenge. Maps like HG for instance, is too much based on relic's luck factor. I switched to random when i got exploded on HG by a superhero, i play well and get frustrated to much.. i love random with their diversity of terrains, castles.
3) No cheats: No possible editing or whatever in these games.. especially when u play with some of reliable, and good players.
There's a bunch of randomers, like joe, greystole, tyris,rychen, midnight, etc.. who are good and reliable. Always fun to play without having to wonder if your opponent cheat, edit or look at the save. Got also tired with the : toh? rank? play? myth? .. what about Hi?
4) Rules: well, depends of the players, but a good compromise is to play on a XL without underground without cartographer, 130%, strong monsters, and all random. Additional rules are discussed, like no diplo or no grail. I never had a disagreement about player breaking rules, maybe because almost all randomers are experienced players. I don't mind play no rules (except carto). Such rules like no logistics, no 4th , no thant etc.. well, are really crappy.. what about no build of level 7 and no use of more than 2 heroes lol.. i admit that people can make rules, but there's a limit lol ..
5) Restart: In case of wood/ore blocked, or if trapped in a small area guarded with the road guraded by impassable monsters... people will restart. I heard about a "head-hunter" who refused a restart when a excellent player (and my usual random partner) was trapped on the early days on the game.. just to sucks points.. First initial of this jerk is A (u know who u are  )
What about fair-play? If you're ready to do everything just to have a win and some points, this is for me ridiculous.
With the captain rank, the only big satisfaction i have is that i can play anybody. I don't forget this is a game, neither should people do.
Also, random are usually long games, i remember a game with greystole who lasted more than 20+ hours if u stick all the loads..So it's not about getting a lots of games, but enjoying it.
Well. this was a short commentary on this topic, and i'm sure a lot more can be written about random..
To finish, you may or not like random.. if u don't like it, don't play them ! That's is so simple.
6h16 AM hum.. maybe i should got some sleep too
Take care and GL randomers!
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JTL
Hired Hero
King of Tossers
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posted June 09, 2001 06:19 AM |
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My view on randoms.
All I really play is randoms and I'll give you a couple reasons:
1). Playing the same map over and over again...memorizing every move through week 2 seems more like work than fun. I love games of exploration and strategy (ie randomly generated civilization map, call to power, alpha centari) they tend to keep you on your toes.
2). Some of the most frequent complaints of randoms is: "it's all luck". Well if that were the case 'random map' players would all have 50-50 records, which is clearly not the case. I've played plenty of maps where the map is unbalanced against me and still managed to think up some new tactic or 'sneaky' move to try and save my arse.
This is not to say everyone should play randoms, if you don't like'm don't play them. I could drone on and on about other positive aspects of randoms but most of the 'key' points have been made by others in this thread (see tvgenie, rychen, and especially phantoms lucid arguements), so I'll leave it at that.
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means
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uGeNe_de_Mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted June 10, 2001 02:33 AM |
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Yeah, really, playing Randoms means more fun. Of course there's a lot of luck involved, but, Goddammit, to that extent it's just like life...
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2001 12:37 AM |
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Random maps are very fair. I prefer playing a random map over and overplayed toh map anytime. Sometime you have unguarded relics but when you do, your opponent does to. If you expand faster you`ll have a wider selection of unguarded relics. That`s 1% of the random maps I`ve played. For the other 99% relics are guarded and usually well enough so that you and your opponent can fight a little before even thinking of fetching the relics.
Salamandre encountered mischievious player. That usually only happens upon your first game ever against someone especially if that person wouldn`t want to play a game for fun.
I don`t disagree with Mocara on many things but about the luck we are on different antipodes... Sure there`s luck in HOMM but it is my opinion that luck by itself will crown a player only seldomly. When you clearly lose a game to bad luck, does it remove any of the fun you had playing? It wouldn`t for me, much less in any case than all the stupid mistakes I do all game long anyhow !
- Frank
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted July 05, 2001 12:13 AM |
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Luck can help u in a rdm map for sure.
But the charm for me in rdm is, that there isn't one 'winning strategy'. e.g. the good old DW-map: if u know it well and ur opp don't u r 100% sure u'll win.
If I play a rdm map against a total plebe, I can still loose. Heck, I even lost to Rychenroller 3 times ))
It's the unpredictable part of it, that I like so much on randoms.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 05, 2001 02:05 AM |
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They aren't meant to be fair.... they are random for crying out loud!!
Win/lose they are usually... Usually... more fun than the normal maps.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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