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| Thread: Creatures - quantity or quality ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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pug
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 03, 2002 02:53 AM |
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Quickly a mistake in my previous post, Ogre Magi can only cast bloodlust, I thought the had stoneskin as well but they don't.
Pug
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted August 03, 2002 04:12 AM |
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Quote:
When I talked about wasp warm and so on, it was not just only to avoid them to shoot. In 2 rounds more my units will slay the Cyclops in melee combat. Just imagine your Cyclops in melee combat compared with the double amount of Ogres. The Ogres are far far better.
In Multiplayer, THAT will appear (don't forget we're all playing now against a dumb AI) !!! Imagine YOU fighting against Barbarians with Cyclops… You first priority will be them (or 4th levels if you opponent has some). So you’ll use magic or send your flyers against them. In this case, the Cyclops will be able to use their area attack ONE time in the fight. After that they will be useless. Instead of Ogres which will be harder to kill & make so much damages in melee (don’t forget they have an awesome growth…)
I’m not trying to say that Ogres are always better. Nonono… But for me, the multiplayer patch will make them more attractive. If you play Might versus Order in a Small or Medium Map, you’d better choose Ogres. The main idea of my first post was to say: you MUST take care of the alignment of your opponent when you choose your creatures. I don’t say you must change the way you play. Only adapt it to the situation.
For the question “Quality or quantity?” my answer is quality.
Stand alone, ogre magi are probably better than cyclopses, but since they are likely in an army, it is more than likely that the cyclopses will have support. This means that it will be harder reaching the cyclopses and the cyclopses can provide powerful support prevent enemy troops from ganging up on your other troops. Don't forget that the ogre magi take 3 to 4 rounds to reach the enemy in the first place and if you only have centaurs to shoot (which are very short ranged) your troops can be decimated by enemy ranged troops before your troops are even in action.
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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Darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted August 04, 2002 02:10 AM |
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I think the cyclops ability is a little too strong. I think it should only be able to attack a creature and damaging the creatures that are standing next to the attacked creature. As it is now, they don't necessarily have to attack a creature directly, but they can also attack the nearby ground, and in doing so damaging three to four stacks. It should have to work like homm3's magog ability I think. Cyclopses wouldn't be that good anymore.
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2002 07:18 AM |
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on the other hand, the growth rate of ogre magi are twice that of cyclopses, so that if 30 cyclopses can target 2 individual stacks and thus do slightly more total damage than 60 ogre magi, they still only have half the hitpoints. if you multiply the hitpoints with the damage, cyclopses would have to target at least 3 stacks of enemy troops to equal the hitpoint times damage score of the ogre magi.
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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Styky
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 12, 2002 02:32 AM |
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quality
Here is what I think. So.. one way to defeat the cyclops is to use magic on them. I place the creatures with range abilities on the second row (246). I haven't tried this.. but I think if you put the cyclops on 4 I don't know if genies or heroes can cast spells on them. Maybe the range ability will suffer because of the penalty.. but is safer. What do you think?
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Never hesitate 2 put some heroes on their back.
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EnergyElemen...
Hired Hero
The Blue snow
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posted August 12, 2002 02:46 AM |
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I think quality is better, ex: If I fight with 17 Imps versus a lot of Archangels like 36, it's easy to win. Only because Imps DESTROY.
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Imps DESTROY
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2002 12:59 PM |
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Cyclops all the way Tactics or not. I believe I've said my opinion of this already in Mighty Strategies
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2002 06:19 AM |
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Quote:
I think quality is better, ex: If I fight with 17 Imps versus a lot of Archangels like 36, it's easy to win. Only because Imps DESTROY.
sorry, but i'm not understanding you properly. you've got 17 imps and you're fighting 36 archangels. how is it even remotely possible to win. you can't even defeat 1 archangel let alone 36.
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 17, 2002 06:49 AM |
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he is retarded- he has a imp fetish he knows how weak they really are
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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Klauts
Famous Hero
lost in a mourning hall!
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posted August 18, 2002 10:16 PM |
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It is possible!
If you have 200 black dragons behind the imps  LOL
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Double-T
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 13, 2002 10:26 PM |
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Double-T
My opinion is, never take the pathtic ogre mages!!!!!!!!!!!
They have only about 80hp and they never reach their enemies. cyclops are one the best lev3 units in the game,+the breeding pen gives +1.5 cyclops more so its quit much even though it would be 9 ogres but still, trust me and take cyclops.
Double-T back in tha track
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 14, 2002 09:43 AM |
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Make the ogre-magi ability an aura. A bloodlust aura.
Now who's pathetic
As it is now, if you don't have cyclops, what are the ranged troops you are going to protect with ogre-magi? A third level unit with high growth and reasonable damage should be dealing damage and soaking uo hits, not throwing bloodlust and standing back. By giving them an aura (not covering the whole battlefield, maybe one forth of it around the ogre-magi) they could move forward and do the damage instead of skipping their turn to cast bloodlust.
That would make players think hard what they want from their mighty level 3's.
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted November 14, 2002 06:12 PM |
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simple: if its your first battle -- take cyclops, and if its your last -- take ogremagi.
Why? Because normally you wouldnt be happy to let more than 10% of your army die in battle (even that not). But in your final battle, its ok if everybody dies except your last imp. And thats where ogremagi are really good -- they dont die. And if money is an issue (and it normally is), ogremagi is really cheap and tough hitpoints.
And getting a teleport spell also helps.
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted November 14, 2002 06:29 PM |
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impwise: they really destroy. at least in combination with pain mirror. they are especially useful against those grandmaster combat hero types who can inflict massive damage on the imps -- much more than they have hitpoints. and pain mirror gives it back to them.
or a calculation.
imp is 7 hitpoints big, with 1-2 hp nominal damage. add the attack/defense modifiers, and you can assume 100 imps do barely 50 damage against behemots.
but with a pain mirror, 100 imps worth 700 hitpoints do 350 hitpoints during their death (or was it 700 even?), taking out the whole behemoth, and more. never before have imps done so much damage. since they are weak, they die really fast -- thus also killing really fast.
ok, 300 damage is not much out of a 5th level spell, but what if you have 1000 imps? btw, a good demonologist can summon 300 imps per turn, rather cheaply...
and when those suicidal imps are near your important guy, enemy cyclops would do better than attack the important guy and soon die of guilt for killing the imps.
... use ImpLosion.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 15, 2002 12:32 AM |
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.....how much does 100 imps cost? To trade a single behemoth? And...to summon 300 imps and use pain mirror on them...your hero has to be at least 40 level above, or have two 15 level heroes.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted November 15, 2002 04:27 AM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 14 Nov 2002
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Is this really the question?
I have to agree with those who say take the cyclopses, but aren't we missing the point of DrizzT's original question which was, I think, "aren't all the creatures supposed to be balanced?" Please correct me if I'm wrong DrizzT.
While the cyclops/ogre thing seems to be a no-brainer, DrizzT's real question (or the one I'm imagining  ) is very interesting. My quick answer is ... NO. While the game designers tried to balance things (I think), they failed, ultimately. The vampire, for example, is far superior to the venom spawn. The imp is far superior to the skeleton. The nightmare is far superior to the efreet, etc. It seems the designers tried to compensate for the greater powers of some creatures of the same level by making the more powerful ones more expensive. It didn't work. Vampires, despite the fact that they cost 1100 gold a piece, are well worth it, and still far too powerful in comparison to other 3rd lvl. creatures.
So, personally, I don't think this is a matter of taste or personal preference. I think there are good and bad choices available, although I admit it's useful to consider your opponent's choices when making your own. Still, vampires are just better (and always better) than venom spawn, and the same goes for the cyclopses in comparison to ogre magi.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Agent00BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 15, 2002 11:20 AM |
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I always chose venom spawns over vampires in the death campaign......cuz my vamps were coming from GM necromancy  .
But the guy above me is right. Balance is almost impossible to attain. Genies are infinitely more useful than nagas. Black dragon rule over hydras. Medusas outdo minotaurs. Price is usually not enough to balance the odds. The type of opponent however does influence it to some extent (using gold golems instead of magi against black dragons).
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted November 15, 2002 02:51 PM |
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tree,
behemoth price = 11 gold per hp --> $4025 worth of behemots die as a punishment for killing:
imp price = 2.6 gold per hp --> $ 1820 worth of imps.
and in addition, imps are normally nor worth buying anyway, so this way you get a nice addition to your army
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted November 15, 2002 05:29 PM |
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I can't resist making some comments:
Quote:
While the game designers tried to balance things (I think), they failed, ultimately.
First, game balance has nothing to do with 1vs1 creature comparisons.
If you think A is better then B, just recruit A.
Second, you write:
Quote:
The vampire, for example, is far superior to the venom spawn. The imp is far superior to the skeleton. The nightmare is far superior to the efreet, etc.
1. Vampire is far from being far superior to the Venom Spawn. Actually, it isn't.
2. The skeleton is better than the Imp, I really don't know what you are talking about...
3. Nightmare far superior to the Efreet??? Which game do you play?
+1 Cyclops is NOT always better then Ogre Mage
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted November 15, 2002 08:23 PM |
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csarmi,
Looks like you and I will have to agree to disagree, but let's try to do so politely, OK?
Quote:
First, game balance has nothing to do with 1vs1 creature comparisons. If you think A is better then B, just recruit A.
Of course, you're right that you can hire either or both 1st lvl. creatures. I just don't think they're balanced. I never hire skeletons, and when my necromancer makes them, I split them out of my army immediately. They're too slow. Imps, on the other hand are fast enough to travel with the army and not slow it down. I, personally, don't think the skeleton's greater power makes up for the superior speed of the imp.
As for the efreeti/nightmare issue, that's a tougher call. While the efreeti is fast (which I like), the nightmere's ability to cast terror makes them superior in my opinion. Experienced chaos players that I've discussed this with generally prefer the nightmare, and use them in three or four stacks in their army to cast multiple terrors while their black dragons fly around and mow down the non-terrified enemy stacks. Then, when terror wears off, the dragons can deal with the remaining stacks. This has proven to be a very effective strategy for me.
Finally, as for the vampire/venom spawn issue, I'm at a loss as to how to respond. The vampire is ridiculously powerful, more powerful than any other 3rd. lvl. creature, and most people I've encountered agree on that. In fact, death is usually ranked as the strongest alignment principally because of the vampire. I dislike playing against death opponents precisely because I know they're going to have vampires. Even if I'm wrong about everything else I've said here (which I might be, admittedly), I have to argue that the vampire is unfair and unbalanced. I think the game designers tried to compensate for the vampire's power by making them expensive and by making other death units comparatively weak, but it didn't work. The vampire is, still, too much.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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