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| Thread: Is Bush crazy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted August 25, 2002 06:19 AM |
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Do you know a muslim? Perhaps you would like to look at some facts. The koran says killing is wrong just as much as the bible. There is more reasons for suicide bombers actions than simple go and kill yourself and you will go to heaven.
Yeah, yeah sure, then explain to me all those suicide bombers who blew up innocent people and were hailed as heroes. Most moslems said they will go to heaven
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Do you know what an Jihad is? It is a PERSONAL struggle within every muslim against evil. No muslim should heed the call purely on the grounds that OBL or anyone else asked them, and most don't. It is first carried out in non-violent means if possible, which essentially means that bombing before peace talks means that they are neither going straight to heaven, nor particularly muslim.
Yeah, ok, if evil is 1000's of unsuspecting civilians cowardly killed for no reason then I totally agree.
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These people are using religion as a excuse for their actions, and now people like you use their religion to taint all muslims with that title. You clearly have not met them all, so tell me how have you come to the conclusion that they are all mad raving lunatics?
ok there are crazed christians and catholics, whatever. But all the do is harmless crap, like preach about armageddon etc. Islam however IS harmful. Not only its intolerant towards others it also turns people into mindless sheep easily governed by dictators.
And I am not trying to taint anyone, I am merely pointing out that islamic religion is responsible for 99% of all religious crimes. And sure not all moslems are like that, but most of them are. Read some books about it.
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I repeat what is done in the name of religion and what religion would want done in it's name are poles apart. Look at the crusades, the inquistion, the conversion of South and Central America does this strike you as tolerant?
No, but people were less civilized back then. According to your logic, middle east is still a bunch of eneducated monkeys, so it must be ok to do whatever they want?
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And bottom line is with that attitude i wouldn't be suprised if someone did blow you up, learn a bit about the religion before you spout off about it please. If you think they are intolerant what must they think of you with your "all muslims are scum" speech?
I know enough to realize that this religion is too dangerous for civilized world. Too bad weak and soft people like you continue to blind themselves into thinking that no action must be taken. They started a fight for survival on sept 11th. We must not show mercy now to teach others a lesson or there will be more attacks.
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Religion will always be accused of starting wars, the real cause is more accurately the people behind the religion. And I do not close my eyes to terrorism, I merely try to open some eyes to the actions of the often reactionary government of Israel. I hate the bombers as much as I hate the IRA and the UDF ("protestant" terror group) and OBL himself. But to ignore the actions of Sharon and the Israeli armed forces is ignorant and dangerous.
Maybe if palestinian rebels would stop blowing up israeli civilians nearly everyday, israel wouldn't retaliate. But I doubt it will ever happen. After all even if you decimate 90% of their poulation, palestinians would still do the same thing. They want israelis to get off their land, which is not happening anytime soon.
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If I were a banana and you were a monkey, would you eat me?
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2002 09:02 AM |
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Pure_Chaos
Since in your wisdom you asked Privatehudson to “grow a brain” …how exactly is that accomplished….quite an ignorant statement which I guess only highlights who needs to become educated. Pick up a book once in a while…it really won’t hurt you….maybe then you can educate us all on how you “grow a brain”
You stated “Religion is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing that is responsible for ther losses of countless lives.”…..excuse me….yeah Lenin and Stalin were devout Buddhist that is why they killed millions of innocents….oh yeah and I forgot that Hitler was known for his theological prowess and great understanding of the Bible…that is why is also murdered millions….please think before writing.
IYY
You stated “I don't know exactly what's happening in Afghanistan so I can't say if Bush is crazy or not. It just won't be a smart thing to say something like this about someone when you don't know enough of the facts. It's hard enough to get all the truth even if you live in a certain country - but if you live outside of it you will never really get it.”
I think there is a lot of wisdom to that….all of us only really know partially what is going on…it is based on information that is provided to us. Hopefully each nation can elect a government that will allow as much truth to be present in there communication of information as possible.
Nivek
Yes I acknowledge that when you remove one dictator or evil leader that it becomes very complex on what to do next. History has shown that sometimes decent leaders follow and at other times evil leaders follow. The point though is that lets say we have a 50/50 chance of getting a positive change in leadership in Iraq…that is still better than what we have now which is a dictator who is 100% despicable.
I think we do have evidence that Iraq has weapons of great destruction. Also it seems to be common sense that if he doesn’t have anything to hide he would of not kicked the UN investigators out long ago.
Is the regime change in Iraq for oil…I am sure that is a big part of the equation…but the ONLY part of the equation…I think not. Rarely in life are actions taken with only one motive. His dictatorship combined with his history of attacking other innocent nations and sponsoring terrorist should be reason enough for an invasion let alone that his capability for serious damage to others is increasing day by day.
I think congress is merely staging questions…I don’t see anyone standing up saying “we should never attack Iraq”….in fact both republicans and democrats on the whole seem to be in support of a regime change.
You are right terrorism will most likely always be with us…but so are murderers and child molesters…doesn’t’ mean that we don’t take care of the ones that we are aware of and have the power to dethrone them.
If there is a way to minimalize casualties I am all for that. I would love an assassination attempt but from my understanding Saddam is a very hard target to hit in his own police state…not to mention he literally has impersonator type people that look like around so as to make it hard to find the “real” Saddam.
Privatehudson
Good point about Israel…it would be much better if they would issue more pronounced statements of regret whenever there are civilian causalities…I don’t know maybe they do make them, but I have read about it in the press here.
You said “And a terrorist and a freedom fighter are NOT the same. A terrorist in my mind targets civilian and innocent civilians and targets. A freedom fighter targets the military infrastructure of a country.”….I couldn’t have said it better myself.
You also stated “And as to religious fanatics, that is unfair really. The people like Hussain and Khomani who use religion as their excuse do not really understand the religion. You could just as easily blame the Catholic Church for the actions done by mussolini because of religion. do not make the error of assuming that because someone claims to act for Muslims (or for that matter any religion) they actually are. They are just simply deluding themselves”
Again a great point…I love how people have very little knowledge of religion try to make a broad-brush statement against religions…..rarely are people who perpetrate great evil the same people who are “true believers”…more often than not….dictators merely use religion to fulfill their own narcissistic desires.
Alexis
You stated “I wish I'll be alive when the U.S.A. empire comes to its end”….what an impoverished insight you possess about US history and the good that they have done.
Juulcesaar
You stated “The only reason why the White house wants stability in this region is because there are oil fields in neighbouring countrys”….I appreciate your amazing ability to read minds…you really must look into becoming a host on some show say communicating with the dead or such….I am sure you would become quite the rave.
Arachnid
Yeah it will be a hard battle if we attack Iraq….we should of done it much earlier. The problem though is that he is amassing more and more capabilities….he is reportedly a short distance away from acquiring nukes…so do we wait till then? Do we wait till he has 10 nukes…how about 100….how about so until he gets sophisticated launching technologies so he can level most of the earth at once?
We are giving 20 millions dollars a day to him????????? Ok and you make that statement based upon what? That is just crazy.
Trees…USA biggest importer? Lets even take that statment as a fact…..well guess what we are one of the biggest nations on earth so I am sure we are the biggest importers of cars, computers, etc. Biggest is irrelevant….and if we are the “biggest”…well Bush is trying to make it that we are supplying more of our own lumber so we wouldn’t be the “biggest” importer…I don’t know seems like circular reasoning you are using.
Where do you Europeans get your news!!!!!!!!!!! First we have a system here….three branches….yes the Supreme Court made a legal decision that had nothing to do with WHO was elected only on how long they could take for the recount of the recount of the recount. FLASH NEWS maybe to some in the rest of the world….there were minimally 4 recounts…the latest being by the liberal media out here…guess what each recount showed Bush as taking Florida.
Bush is completely incompetent????….hmmmm and you back that up with what? Need I remind the posters here that Bush graduated from two of the most prestigious world-renown universities in the world…Yale and Harvard. Yeah right those great institutions are very well know for graduating incompetent people! I get so pissed off when people make such completely ignorant statements as that…..if you don’t like his policies fine…but don’t try to pull a “straw man” argument out of your butt.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2002 09:07 AM |
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Abazagaroth
First off…wow I finally met someone who can write longer posts than me Nice to see I am not the only one
Second off…you have little knowledge of Privatehudson if you claim he doesn’t know history…he has a very great knowledge base and you might do well to learn from him.
Well Bush is an idiot…yawn….can’t you come up with anything more intelligent than that.. Logic…yeah Rice, Powell, Cheney are all known for their extremist views and lack of logic…..get real!
Rich pay less taxes????….roflol…you got to be kidding….the top 10 percent of tax payers in the US pay for almost 60% of the taxes collected….please refrain from such incorrect assumptions.
Bush got his financial funding from OBL….what do you read for news….the comics? Where you ever come up with this stuff…I highly recommend a creative writing class as you are gifted!
Bush a puppet of the republican party…and you know this from your keen ability at mind reading? I know this is big news…but he is a republican….so that he pursues republican ideas…well imagine that! Also he has made many decisions in the last year which have actually pissed lots of republicans off such as the Steel tariff, etc.
Saddam is not a madman???….I guess invading two nations, killing thousands of Kurds…etc. makes him quite the diplomatic leader. Defying the reasonable UN decisions for inspections…yeah he is just a great freedom loving kind of guy. I am sorry did I miss where they have free election and freedom of speech and freedom of the press…yeah he is great.
I guess you were one of the ones that thought all the communist were just fine fellows. They murdered millions in taking over Russian had no freedoms whatsoever. Yet I expect that you just can’t believe that Reagan was one of the major forces that assisted in liberating the people from the communist dictators.
France….you are comparing France to Iraq…man I got to feel sorry for you.
You seem to see conspiracies everywhere…hey I enjoyed watching the Xfiles TV show as much as the next guy…but I need to let you know….it was fiction not reality.
When you stated “ Sadda Hussein would get a bullet from me any day”…..HUH??? Didn’t you earlier remark that he wasn’t a bad buy????
You stated “looking out for number 1 is what one would expect a government to do. In a perfect world this wouldn't be so, but we don't live in that world”….well in general I guess we do agree there….each nation should serve to protect their peoples interest first, provided there are no extreme ethical and moral violations. I don’t think the US government is particularly hypocritical at all….hypocritical would be lets say if we believe in freedom of religion and then annihilate Iraq and post the Pope as their government leader…now that would be hypocritical…I don’t know you seem to use the word hypocrite in a very strange way.
Castro is supporting free elections…..lol….yeah I guess why that is why Florida has such a high population of Cuban political refugees…that is why thousands would risk floating across the ocean in an inner-tube…they do it because they just have too much dang freedom there….roflol.
AS far as our treatment of China….I have to agree with you there…we shouldn’t be trading with them.
You stated “Hell, I don't even have a problem with the U.S. going to war over oil, oil is a major economic factor, and having enough to run the country should be a priority to the government, but don't LIE to us about why we are doing something.”….I think you have a point there….but I don’t know if they are necessarily lying….a lie would be if they stated “we have no interest in oil in the middles east whatsoever”….I don’t hear anyone saying that.
Big Business….oh those evil corporations…..uh this is a capitalist society…guess what that means big businesses….if you don’t care for it move to a socialist or communist country….you may be more happy there.
You stated “What do we do when our oil reserves run out?”….again agree with you there…unfortunately the democrats are constantly stopping us from obtaining any of our own oil….look at what all the democrats are crying about Alaska….the democrats are not allowing Bush to promote oil production in Alaska.
You stated “terrorist and a freedom fighter are the same thing, just two different words from two different perspectives to describe the same thing”….please read Priavatehudson’s post for an accurate understanding.
You stated “If you can show me a successful or failed military revolution that came to violence rather than a peaceful coup that did not involve attacks on civilian supporters of the penecontemporary regime in the 20th century, I'll give you a cookie. “…please give me a cookie….ever heard of what Gandhi did or the changes in South Africa, etc.. Not to mention..though not in the 20th century…the American Revolution.
You stated “The American Revolution was not fought over "representation" or "freedom and rights" or any such thing. It began as a civil unrest caused by primarily WEALTHY individuals that were angry to have to pay a single tax”……now who is ignorant…..TAXES HAD TO DO WITH REPRESENTATION….doh
You stated “ Rich individuals revolted, not common workers, not "the people", wealthy landowners, the taxpayers of the time. That is what started the conflict. “….I hope you were making a joke…..common people most definitely were involved in the tax revolts. Also when did a landowner qualify someone as rich???? I guess you must think what like what about the 150 million home owners today in America are rich by your definition….ridiculous. BTW again…..capitalism….you are in a capitalist nation…one of the central basis of capitalism is land ownership. You seem to really suffer from a type of penis envy about the “rich”. But I guess with all your animosity towards the “rich” you would prefer we were still and English colony.
I must stop responding to your posts….this is taking too much time;P
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Juulcesaar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 25, 2002 11:13 AM |
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Why palestinians are so angry? how would you be when a nation is invading your homuse, shooting your children, ruining your economy and still be supported by the rest of your world. The Israelites don't do anything to make a truce or something. Remember the missile attack on a flat in the Gaza. Lots of innocents where killed there. The reaction of the military:" seemingly innocent people were killed during our assasination of (this terrorist). We are very sorry for it".
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I do no longer exist...
Check 'reynaert' if you want to see me...
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2002 11:52 AM |
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Hmmm.... I think I'm going to pick that guy who wrote funny stuff as for my future jester when the old one becomes boring. And, of course, someone must take care of those donuts while the rest of HC is at nuclear war. I have to save those good creative map makers as well. I must put those people who like Heroes 4 and especially those who like my maps to safe zones. Oh, I'm going to take those world wonders like Eiffel's Tower and Pyramids, hope you people don't mind if I shield them from nukes. Hmmm... I think I forgot something. I'm sure there are some people and things I should still save. Well, nevermind about that, I'll think it is tea time already. Maybe some other god will safe those who I forgot. And I have to announce that thing to the people.
"Ladies and gentlemen, let the bombing begin!"
Humans, always getting their noses bleed time after time.
Darn it! I forgot my worshippers!
And Life smiles, but with a big sadistic pleasure behind the wide grin.
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Abazagaroth
Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
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posted August 25, 2002 11:52 AM |
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This thread is already taking on a typical internet flame type atmosphere, so I'm going to just step back, just making a few comments in response to some issues brought up:
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Second off…you have little knowledge of Privatehudson if you claim he doesn’t know history…he has a very great knowledge base and you might do well to learn from him.
I didn't particularly mean what I said (or, rather, didn't mean it to come out sounding so vicious) regarding his posts. Mainly, I was trying to bring across that there is a hell of a lot more out there regarding to history of western civilization beyond what you get in a high school or introductory level college text. The difference between what historians write for mass consumption and what they write for themselves is huge.
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Well Bush is an idiot…yawn….can’t you come up with anything more intelligent than that.. Logic…yeah Rice, Powell, Cheney are all known for their extremist views and lack of logic…..get real!
Well, Bush is an idiot, relative to your average high powered politician. Most get to that point due in large part to their intelligence, Bush Jr. got there because of his so called "passionate conservatism" that republicans decided would help get him elected, his family name, and his willingness to take the standard party line the majority of the time. If he was one-tenth the independent human being his father was he would get a hell of a lot less criticism from me. Quayle was smart too, but he was also a flaming idiot when it comes to political adeptness. Bush Jr. is the same in many ways, he just is not intelligent enough to be president IMO, and is too ill-informed about key issues and the public sentiment. Just look at his radio addresses for instance, he comes out with a strong right-wing conservative response to certain issues, then 2 days later turns around 180 degrees on the issue. So either he doesn't know enough about an issue to comment and just takes the standard party line, or just takes the standard party line and then gets told to change his position once the firestorm starts.
Calling Bush an idiot doesn't mean he drools on himself and writes with crayons, it means in his capacity as President of the U.S. he is idiotic. The dichotomy applies because the issue at hand is the politics, just like in an argument with someone over some issue and you say, "stop being an idiot" or something like that, you aren't calling them an idiot, you are describing what they are saying/doing. Also, if you don't think Cheney has extreme views you don't know too much about him. He is on the far right of conservatism on the national political scene.
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Rich pay less taxes????….roflol…you got to be kidding….the top 10 percent of tax payers in the US pay for almost 60% of the taxes collected….please refrain from such incorrect assumptions.
I would suggest you refrain from making incorrect assumptions. It is true the richest people pay most of the taxes, but on a per dollar basis they pay less in taxes due to tax shelters. How else do you explain the top 2% of individuals in the U.S. control 40% of the private wealth? I couldn't find the exact numbers for the amount of private wealth the top 10 percent control, so I used that number so no one could accuse me of making up things, but I believe its around 75% for the top 10%. The large number of regressive taxes play a part as well, such as those in real estate (you pay lower rates for higher amounts, in essence taxing the rich less on the dollar than the poor). As I stated, on the dollar, the wealthy pay less taxes than the lower-middle class.
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Bush got his financial funding from OBL….what do you read for news….the comics? Where you ever come up with this stuff…I highly recommend a creative writing class as you are gifted!
I highly recommend you delve into what truly goes on in this country and in the rest of the world, you might be suprised. This information is well-known and has been reported in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and well documented and involved several serious scandals in the early 1990s that led to several Senate investigations. Essentially, a neighbor of Bush Jr. was used to funnel cash from Osama Bin Laden's father. Huge scandal, involving BCCI, the CIA, drugs, and more. Very interesting actually. This site shows the path the money took, and more importantly links to just about every detail:
[url]http://www.pir.org/cgi-bin/nbonlin6.cgi?_BATH_JAMES_R[/url]
[url]http://www.pir.org/cgi-bin/nbonlin6.cgi?_BUSH_GEORGE_W%20JR[/url]
[url]http://www.pir.org/cgi-bin/nbonlin6.cgi?Na=Bank+Credit+Commerce+International[/url]
For information on the cheney-taliban-pipeline negotiations:
[url]http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12525[/url]
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Bush a puppet of the republican party…and you know this from your keen ability at mind reading? I know this is big news…but he is a republican….so that he pursues republican ideas…well imagine that! Also he has made many decisions in the last year which have actually pissed lots of republicans off such as the Steel tariff, etc.
Bush has been the most party-line President the U.S. has had since Carter. I gave why I felt he was a puppet earlier in this post, he flip flops too much from standard extreme rhetoric position to moderate position overnight, and takes some bizarre stances on some issues, particularly environmental ones whose only purpose AFAICT is just to line the pocket of wealthy businesses and their stockholders...who often happen to be some of the primary republicans. Can I read his mind? No, but ehn neither can you, so that is a ridiculous position to take regarding someone's opinion. If its your opinion he is a strong independent minded president, well, then that's your opinion, and you can't support it anymore than I can mine.
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Saddam is not a madman???….I guess invading two nations, killing thousands of Kurds…etc. makes him quite the diplomatic leader. Defying the reasonable UN decisions for inspections…yeah he is just a great freedom loving kind of guy. I am sorry did I miss where they have free election and freedom of speech and freedom of the press…yeah he is great.
My definition of "madman" is one that takes illogical and unreasonable courses of actions in certain situations, and that doesn't include a dictator taking actions to maintain his power (which is essentially no different than any other government, except dictators have more leeway in how the react to threats). i really love the "reasonable UN inspections" part. Its not unreasonable for the police to come to your door and ask you for a blood and urine sample to test you for drugs? Its not unreasonable for your boss to tap your phone lines to listen in on all your phone conversations (without telling you of course) tyo see if you are involved in corporate espionage? That is essentially the point. The U.N. does not have the *right* to require weapons inspections of a sovereign nation. The police don't have the *right* to randomly test citizens for illegal drugs. I have nothing to hide if they decided to do so, but that doesn't make me any less opposed to it.
I never said he was a "great guy" or that they had free elections or whatnot, and your hyperbole regarding my comments that he isn't a "madman" just make you look silly.
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I guess you were one of the ones that thought all the communist were just fine fellows. They murdered millions in taking over Russian had no freedoms whatsoever. Yet I expect that you just can’t believe that Reagan was one of the major forces that assisted in liberating the people from the communist dictators.
No, I didn't think Stalin was a great guy, he's responsible for more deaths than any other human that has ever lived. Every human being should be appalled that ~40 million people were murdered during and after WWII in the USSR and eastern Europe. I have no a priori problems with communism however, and anyone that considers communism equivalent to "evil" or whatnot is smoking too much crack. I guess since hitler was democratically elected all democracies would be considered "evil" as well under that kind of belief structure.
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France….you are comparing France to Iraq…man I got to feel sorry for you.
I feel sorry that you completely missed the point at hand, that the same concerns raised about Iraq could be turned around on other countries just as easily, making the use of those concerns (e.g. "Saddam is trying to nuke us!") to start a war is hypocritical and beyond the pale. Privatehudson had it correct when he responded to that paragraph of mine by saying that invading those countries would never happen and for the reasons he gave. Now, I propose one think about why the U.S. invading, say, Uzbekistan or Lithuania is somewhat ridiculous for the reason that they may "nuke" us, or provide a mechanism (via the sale or theft of a warhead) for that to happen, whereas it isn't ridiculous when we talk about Iraq. Iraq is a scapegoat, and the focus on it for the reasons proposed are hypocritical and are not in any way supported by international law, and open the door to a renewal the the CIA secret wars of the 50s-70s where the wholesale removal of governments we didn't like occurred, except this time it happens out in the open with the sheep-like support of the populace.
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You seem to see conspiracies everywhere…hey I enjoyed watching the Xfiles TV show as much as the next guy…but I need to let you know….it was fiction not reality.
When you stated “ Sadda Hussein would get a bullet from me any day”…..HUH??? Didn’t you earlier remark that he wasn’t a bad buy????
What conspiracy? Smoke less crack, it will do you some good. In addition, quit making statements about what I said that are untrue, claiming I said Hussein "wasn;t a bad guy" to try and discredit me is utterly stupid, deceitful, and discredits your entire argument. Stick to the facts and what people say, not what you think is funny to claim they said.
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You stated “looking out for number 1 is what one would expect a government to do. In a perfect world this wouldn't be so, but we don't live in that world”….well in general I guess we do agree there….each nation should serve to protect their peoples interest first, provided there are no extreme ethical and moral violations. I don’t think the US government is particularly hypocritical at all….hypocritical would be lets say if we believe in freedom of religion and then annihilate Iraq and post the Pope as their government leader…now that would be hypocritical…I don’t know you seem to use the word hypocrite in a very strange way.
I use "hypocrite" as it is meant, one whose actions belie their beliefs. It is hypocrisy for the U.S. to make claims regarding Iraq (or anything else over any other topic) that are supposed to be reason to go to war, then ignore (and *encourage* through trade) these same things in other nations.
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Castro is supporting free elections…..lol….yeah I guess why that is why Florida has such a high population of Cuban political refugees…that is why thousands would risk floating across the ocean in an inner-tube…they do it because they just have too much dang freedom there….roflol.
AS far as our treatment of China….I have to agree with you there…we shouldn’t be trading with them.
The vast majority of individuals that have left Cuba after 1959 have been 1) family members of those that left Cuba during the revolution or shortly thereafter 2) homosexuals 3) criminals 4) mentally retarded (the last 3 primarily through force when the Cuban penal system and social system could no longer be supported even with Soviet funding, and a politcal maneuver due to what was going on in the U.S. rhetoric of the time) and 5) baseball players that want to play in the majors and make the big bucks. Perhaps you were unaware, but Castro has also let people leave voluntarily, and the U.S. is the one that prevents them from coming into the country due to immigration. Anytime people try and come here from Cuba, the U.S. tries to apprehend them before they hit the shore and then send them right back to Cuba.
I also never said castro was supporting free elections, I said he was allowing them to go on and the cuban constitution has provisions allowing it to go on. I did make a mistake however, it is 10,000 signatures, not 50,000:
"Paya has mounted potentially the most effective challenge to the Cuban regime since its foundation, because he is calling its bluff on its own terrain. He has devised a campaign called 'Proyecto Varela', a petition for democratic change collated under Articles 63 and 88 of the Cuban constitution, which guarantee that if 10,000 signatures are gathered in support of a series of demands, its motion must be put to referendum. The Proyecto Varela contains five such demands: 1. Freedom of association, speech and the press; 2. Liberation of political prisoners; 3. The right to sell labour freely and establish businesses; 4. The right to present candidates for election; 5. Free elections within a year if the referendum is successful. In short, the end of Cuban communism."
Castro likely isn't going to lay down and give power away (didn't I say a government's primary function was to maintain itself?), so it will be interesting to see what will happen, but he hasn't rounded up and imprisoned the people involved in this movement.
A little history lesson regarding Cuba. Prior to castro taking over, most of the island was owned by U.S. interests, primarily fruit and sugar companies. Most of the populace worked in cane fields as slave labor. No educational system, not health care, etc. Cuba was ruled in a dictatorship under Batista, who was in the pocket of wealthy american businesses. Cuba was a winter resort paradise for wealthy american families. Castro was exiled from Cuba for sedition against the Batista regime, and while exiled in Mexico vowed (publically) to go back to cuba and force the overthrow of Batista. Like most young Latin American revolutionaries of the 1950s he had one ultimate philosophical goal, the raising up of the poor and downtrodden (the promise of socialism is very appealing to such people, and is why almost all of - the very poor - latin american countries ended up socialist or with socialist revolutionaries trying to take over the governments).
Castro "invaded" Cuba in 1956 with 82 men, and the landing on shore was a disaster, and by the time the "invasion force" met up they had 12 people and 7 guns. From this point on Castro fought Batista's fores for several years of guerilla warfare, winning over the peasants with his ideology (which came from his hero Marti, a cuban poet that rose against the Spanish in 1895) which eventually turned to Marxism (don't confuse that with Communism, two VERY different things). Batista fled the country on new years day in 1959. This is where it gets interesting.
Castro and his July 26th Movement started to put into effect the plans they had been touting all along, most importantly land reform. This caused problems as one of the major reasons Castro succeeded were rival political organizations workign against Batista. Castro even outraged his own family by confiscating the castro estate to redistribute to the peasants (castro came from a relatively wealthy cuban family). Also creating problems were the executions that took place of the Batista torturers, conspirators, etc (the settling of scores as it were with the previous regime), which eventually were stopped after international protests. Castro visited the U.S. soon after the movements success to gain support, and was written off as a communist and when he refused to give in for demands that U.S. assets (particulalry land) be unfrozen and returned to U.S. companies and citizens, the CIA began its longterm campaign against Castro, which included many assassination attempts, the Bay of Pigs incident in 1961, sabotage (which included blowing up a ship in havana harbor that resulted in a large loss of civilian life).
Castro then turned to the Communist Party in Cuba (which now supported the July 26th Movement due to castro's Marxist politics) for support, and the USSR obliged by providing oil and a market for Cuban sugar since the embargo by the U.S. prevented any other option. Castro's partner Che Guevara in the revolution (who was far more the idealist) admitted by the mid 1960s that he had "failed to achieve his ideal of a communist Utopia in which greed and selfishness were banished and all cherished notions of sacrifice and solidarity" (think about that kind of ideology, and think about the terrible conditions all throughout latin america, and think about why socialism is popular there). It was after Guevara's failed revolution in Bolivia that Castro stopped wearing a suite and tie and began wearing the fatigues we all are so familar with.
Post Batista, Cuba has excellent healthcare (relative to everywhere else in latin america) and education, available to all. People don't starve in cuba. Sanctions hurt everyone there, not just the poor (unlike in Iraq where sanctions primarily affect the poor). Cuba became a scapegoat for the "red scare" due to its proximity and the cuban missile crisis. The opposition to trading with Cuba comes from the cubans that live in florida (who have reason to hate castro of an economic basis, some due to family members being executed in the early days or persecuted), the U.S. sugar companies (which would go bankrupt if Cuban sugar hit the market at the price it could be sold for), and people that know exactly jack squat about the issues involved.
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You stated “Hell, I don't even have a problem with the U.S. going to war over oil, oil is a major economic factor, and having enough to run the country should be a priority to the government, but don't LIE to us about why we are doing something.”….I think you have a point there….but I don’t know if they are necessarily lying….a lie would be if they stated “we have no interest in oil in the middles east whatsoever”….I don’t hear anyone saying that.
The government continuously denies that oil plays any role in the decisions regarding military action in Iraq, and played no part in the Gulf War. I don't see us sending troops to Kashmir over one country invading another.
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Big Business….oh those evil corporations…..uh this is a capitalist society…guess what that means big businesses….if you don’t care for it move to a socialist or communist country….you may be more happy there.
This is the exact type of attitude that disgusts me to the extreme. I don't have to go anywhere. If you want to bend over and take it hard just because "that's the way it is" that's your perogative, I, on the other hand recognize that I live in a country where important issues are resolved at the ballot box, and that those isssues come to the fore due to political discussions. If you don't care for people having a problem with certain things the governmenr does, why don't YOU move somewhere else. Perhaps grab a time machine back to fascist Italy or Germany where no one is allowed to have an opinion contrary to the government position.
Capitalism is as capitalism does, and big business getting hand fed 400 billion dollars a year of my tax money while getting away with paying billions in taxes through tax loopholes is not capitalism. Its abuse of the system and I will fight it with my dying breath.
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You stated “What do we do when our oil reserves run out?”….again agree with you there…unfortunately the democrats are constantly stopping us from obtaining any of our own oil….look at what all the democrats are crying about Alaska….the democrats are not allowing Bush to promote oil production in Alaska.
Did you even read what I wrote regarding oil? Drilling in Anwar does nothing but cost the U.S. government money while lining the pockets of big business. it doesnt lower oil prices or dependency on foreign oil. Why should we waste our natural resources when we can get it just as cheaply from OPEC as citizens, save the government money, maintain our own resource self-reliance potential? Just so a U.S. oil interest can save a few cents a barrel and raise its profit margin? I'm sorry, I don't like corporate welfare in any form. Didn't you say we are a capitalist nation? Then why are we giving companies advantages at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer?
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You stated “terrorist and a freedom fighter are the same thing, just two different words from two different perspectives to describe the same thing”….please read Priavatehudson’s post for an accurate understanding.
You stated “If you can show me a successful or failed military revolution that came to violence rather than a peaceful coup that did not involve attacks on civilian supporters of the penecontemporary regime in the 20th century, I'll give you a cookie. “…please give me a cookie….ever heard of what Gandhi did or the changes in South Africa, etc.. Not to mention..though not in the 20th century…the American Revolution.
/laugh
Just because Ghandi was a polarizing figure doesn't mean he is wholy responsible for the regime change there, take a look at the history regarding India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. South Africa had so much violence I can't believe you said it, and the American Revolution was the same. I guess tar and feathering british tax collectors isn't terrorism? (btw, tarring and feathering causes painful and slow death through asphyxiation)
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You stated “The American Revolution was not fought over "representation" or "freedom and rights" or any such thing. It began as a civil unrest caused by primarily WEALTHY individuals that were angry to have to pay a single tax”……now who is ignorant…..TAXES HAD TO DO WITH REPRESENTATION….doh
Who is ignorant? You, apparently. Representation wasn't the issue. It was a rally cry to try and gain public support, and one that wasn't near as effective as historians looking back with an eye colored by the future events would make 5th graders believe with their simplistic "no taxation without representation" BS. I've made the plea before, and I'll do so again: PLEASE! Read up on history! Don't just take what is written for children in basic high school texts as the be all end all to history! There is so much more out there, and its all at your local library, especially research libraries at universities and military bases.
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You stated “ Rich individuals revolted, not common workers, not "the people", wealthy landowners, the taxpayers of the time. That is what started the conflict. “….I hope you were making a joke…..common people most definitely were involved in the tax revolts. Also when did a landowner qualify someone as rich???? I guess you must think what like what about the 150 million home owners today in America are rich by your definition….ridiculous.
Again, the ignorance is astounding. Do you have any idea who taxpaying landowners were in the 18th century? Look up the tax laws under British rule, then maybe you'll understand the point.
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BTW again…..capitalism….you are in a capitalist nation…one of the central basis of capitalism is land ownership. You seem to really suffer from a type of penis envy about the “rich”. But I guess with all your animosity towards the “rich” you would prefer we were still and English colony.
*sigh* Another pathetic statement. Believe me, I'm not "wealthy", but I sure as hell am well off, and once I finish my thesis and am teaching I will be a hell of a lot better than "well off". Me and my wife are both finishing our PhDs. We will both be teaching at the University level. She will also be working with the coroners office on forensic cases, and I will be writing books that will also bring in revenue. Just from an average salary for an associate professor we will make well over 100k a year together, which will rise significantly once we get tenure. I will be paying plenty in taxes.
So what?
Does that mean I should just become conservative regarding taxes? Slash taxes! Who cares about other people! ME! ME! ME! Sorry, I don't work that way. I prefer the playing field remain level. Capitalism is free enterprise, the government making decisions that are effectively done for the benefit of businesses and their stockholders is not free enterprise.
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I must stop responding to your posts….this is taking too much time;P
Finally, an intelligent response that I can agree whole-heartedly with.
Of course, I have to get one final comment, use your brain! Think! Don't accept dogma from anyone or anything, research facts, research issues, and make an informed decision. Party-line republicans and party-line democrats have one thing in common, they both go "baaaa!" when they bleet.
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C. David Kreger
dkreger@yahoo.com
[url]http://www.modernhumanorigins.com[/url]
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted August 25, 2002 12:17 PM |
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Quite frankly, I think all Americans are a bunch of arrogant rednecks led by a f#cking monkey George Bush.
HOWEVER. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if USA nuked the hell out of Iraq/Iran and other sub-human nations led by crazed religious f#ckwits.
You can all flame me now.
Peace and Love.
My long lost brother! You have returned... after all these years. My heart jumped of joy when I sang aloud the sweet rhymes of the above poem. Exquisit, marvellous, divine... beautiful
I hope you are all right, wherever you are. You sound to be happy, so that's good. Makes me happy as well.
Peace and love. Your brother Nidhgrin
***medication time people, medication time***
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~Vegetables don't spam~
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted August 25, 2002 03:24 PM |
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right I'm going to largely make some general points because I can't be bothered to write as much as the previous people.
Commando I'm sorry yout feel that way, but you are wrong. Battles and Millitary history are much more than who won and how many died etc. I do know a fair bit of political history, but it centers around war, and largely British political History. I was merely trying to point out that I know only small amounts about certain subjects such as Washington. this does not make my points any less valid, they are after all my opinions. My knowledge of particular aspects or parts of history only stretches to certain fields and certain levels. Does that make me ignorant or less relevant?
Pure Chaos
Oh dear does the meaning of the term hypocrite mean much to you? Intolerance is precisely what you have shown in your posts about the muslim religion. Has it ever occured to you that the only reason you see so many people thinking they will go to heaven because that is what the west wants to see? That is what is convinient for their next attack, rather than the true face of the religion.
Christianity if you want to be pedantic is in your defenition responsible for the Waco massacres, the slaughters in kossovo, bosnia and many others supposedly carried out on religious grounds. I could site the occaision when the vatican point blank refused to harbour Jewish refugees from hitler during WWII, even when they turned up at the door begging them. Or how about when Christian militia massacred a refugee camp full of palestinian inncoents whilst Sharon's men watched? Is christianity bad? not really at it's heart again it is people warping it's meanings into something it is not to justify their actions.
And I did not say the jihad should be blowing people up! Read it again it says should be non-violent! I said these bombers are against their religion as any true muslim would tell you. It may suprise you to know (and I doubt you care, but....) that muslims have a word for sanctuary that if uttered they must accept it and defend that person and feed them for some time. Is this intolerant?
And no you put that logic forward, I was merely sighting occaisions when others have broken their religious functions and caused massacres. I do think that the bombers are frankly insane and should be shot, but that does not equate to me thinking everyone there is the same, that seems to be your opinion, kindly don't try to bring me to that level.
"They" started a fight with "Us" well that's nice I suppose because I am british I will be lumped in the same boat as say the UDF and UDV pro british (term used loosely) terror groups and be considered an enemy of the Irish Republic then? Do you see the entire muslim world rising against America? No and this is because at their heart the majority of people living in Muslim states couldn't give a damn about america, they just want to live their lives free from terror and outside influence.
And I have read books on the muslim religion. That is what gives you the facts about what the beleive in, not generalising on what the believe in on the actions of a percentage of madmen.
Dargon
Nice to see we agree for a change, I spoke to Alexis and he is more concerned with the specific actions in Uruagay, which if correct I can understand. Oh and hey! I'm European!
Abazagaroth
Well it's nice to know that you don't consider me a comlete retard anyway. I won't go through all of it, but have you considered that I do actually look beyond history books, just in some of the subjects that either interest me or affect me. Try to remember that historians have their own agendas and reasons for their works, so you have to weigh up all the facts.
So I don't know about washington and all the reasons for the war, but you seem to be insinuating that tax and landowners was the ONLY reason for the war, which is clearly wrong.
Have you considered that the only reason people are flaming you (which is only mild flaming anyway) is because you are constantly coming across as smug and superior? So you read about cuba and washington a lot, this makes you better than anyone else? People have different opinions, different reasons, you apparently have yet to learn that someone who interprets a situation from you is not a idiot/retard/moron/crack smoker. Me and D'argon and me and IYY have discussed issues in the past, which to my recollection I don't ever recall either side calling the other an idiot or similar (please correct me if i'm wrong). We just recognise the simple fact that we disagree and get on with our lives.
So you have a good education then, well congratulations but please you may want to learn some basic manners on the above issues. Try discussing the IRA, The UDF and UDV with me and I assure you I have more than just a college education on such matters. I have experience and have read on such things. Would you be an idiot or pathetic if you disagreed with my opinions? I think not somehow.
Damn it now I'm posting longer replies! Is this some sort of conspiracy or something?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted August 25, 2002 03:38 PM |
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Quote:
islam however IS harmful. Not only its intolerant towards others it also turns people into mindless sheep easily governed by dictators.
And I am not trying to taint anyone, I am merely pointing out that islamic religion is responsible for 99% of all religious crimes. And sure not all moslems are like that, but most of them are. Read some books about it.
i dont think islam is %99 responsible.. i think all terror actions has a capitalist source.
and unfortunately there is still people with 20 iq who believes that muslims hates christians.
p.s. to mods :
do i need to send email to valery to close this thread !!! do your job correctly !!!
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2002 04:13 PM |
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Is Bush crazy ??????
Definitely NOT la.......
My guess:-
Bush and/or his relatives/friends/groups/allies..... hold
a legion of stocks/bonds/etc........ in the capital market. By declare war to Iraq, he can make a great fortune .......
Well, just kidding.
But due to his previous record, Bush definitely is a guy who knows capital market........
Why Bush want to fight Iraq ???
a) for his own benefits (election, for example)
b) for the benefits of USA
c) for the benefits of the whole world......
To me, only a) & b) are the answers no matter what Bush says.......... 
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Alexis
Tavern Dweller
Creator of Worlds
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posted August 25, 2002 04:17 PM |
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Dargon:
"Castro is supporting free elections…..lol….yeah I guess why that is why Florida has such a high population of Cuban political refugees…"
Refugees? I'm sorry but I strongly disagree here. Florida has such a high populaton of Cuban capitalist terrorist. Although, the U.S.A. TV/newspapers shows them as "political refugees".
So, you think you are free, ah? You are free if just do how "they" say. Don't dare to think different, or U.S.A. will support to derrocate the government that "thought different" and manage to block its economic growth, restriting international commerce with it. U.S.A. people only think about owning money. Money is all about, although U.S.A. don't have intentions to use it to stop the hunger in the world, but for being more powerful and take control of the whole world, exploiting the poor nations, colonizing through economic (and other) mediums other extenuated nations.
If you ask me, I don't like U.S.A. freedom.
Long live to Cuban people! Hasta la victoria siempre! May the world see Cuba as an example of the U.S.A. non alignement!
If someone is interested in reading the other version of the facts, see:
http://www.cubagob.cu/Ingles/default.htm
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[url=http://users.movinet.com.uy/~alexis]Torquemada 1.3[/url]
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted August 25, 2002 04:27 PM |
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Why can't some ppl just discuss without insults. Threads like this are created just to show ppl what is hapening in the world, they are meant to be learning experiences, not falming opurtunities.
Hamsi
Actually 99% of all the "evil" that hapens in the planet is due to capitalism. When US said that Russia was the "empire of evil" ,in the cold war, they could be right, my knowledge on communism is not that good, but they should see that ppl can do anything for money.
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Commando
Known Hero
Unleasher of the Bloodthirsty
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posted August 25, 2002 06:37 PM |
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Quote:
My knowledge of particular aspects or parts of history only stretches to certain fields and certain levels. Does that make me ignorant or less relevant?
You'd be ignorant if you didn't seek knowledge. I doubt this is your case. I do think however that the less you have studied, researched and garnered your information from unbiased sources, the less relevant your opinion becomes. And don't expect to be taught anything particulary relevant at school because it isn't bloody likely to happen - you're going to have to seek the truth out yourself.
@Dargon:
After reading your opinion regarding multinational corporations I feel quite compelled to ask you an apparently off-topic question: why are steroids banned in most countries? Think a thousand times before replying.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted August 25, 2002 08:05 PM |
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that's fair enough commando and I do on the stuff I want to read about. No-one clearly can understand every aspect of everything because no-one has time to read about it all. An example. Most schools and papers in the UK teach us that the IRA are evil (which coincidently they are), some people take this as all Catholic Irish people, but by doing some simple research it is clear this is not the case. I could go on, but unlike some people in my country I do actually read both sides of the argument and not just write off the republican groups for the actions of the IRA.
Perhaps not entirely relevant, but it does at least show that if the subject interests me I do look further than high school reading material. The trouble I geuss is that I neither have the time nor the inclination to read deeply into all the subjects discussed in this thread. The one thing is that you have to read material from both sides, not just material, academic or not from one which is almost always biased whether it comes from a reporter or from a "learned" historian
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Abazagaroth
Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
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posted August 25, 2002 09:06 PM |
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I have to apologize for my last post, the more it went on the more snowy it became (I was getting sleepy darn it!), and went far beyond my original point of just responding to a few things and dropping it. I'm not a smug person, and don't think I am arrogant to such an extreme (though I tend to equate arrogance with unwillingness to listen to other viewpoints and change ones mind rather than ust self-assuredness or such), but I suppose its hard to prevent that tone from coming out when typing a hurried response to an arguement.
Unless I see a real need for a response this will be my last post on this thread, I hope the mods lock it too, as this isn't why I play HoMM =P I get enough of this kind of debate the rest of my life.
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C. David Kreger
dkreger@yahoo.com
[url]http://www.modernhumanorigins.com[/url]
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Alexis
Tavern Dweller
Creator of Worlds
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posted August 25, 2002 10:34 PM |
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Apologize
I have to apologize for my last post, too, if someone got hurted. Although that's the way I feel, I don't have the right to hurt people from U.S.A. (the problem is not the common people, it's in the government and the multinationals company managers, who manage the world too).
So, there's something that really joins us here, it's the HOMM. We should let political thinking for the next time we vote!
Greetings.
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[url=http://users.movinet.com.uy/~alexis]Torquemada 1.3[/url]
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted August 25, 2002 10:56 PM |
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Quote:
Actually 99% of all the "evil" that hapens in the planet is due to capitalism. When US said that Russia was the "empire of evil" ,in the cold war, they could be right, my knowledge on communism is not that good, but they should see that ppl can do anything for money.
What do you mean by that last sentance?
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted August 25, 2002 11:24 PM |
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What I wanted to say is that capitalism is evil to, and that americans should see that before calling the soviet union "the empire of evil" and before they started that witch hunt against comunists.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted August 25, 2002 11:58 PM |
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Oh, ok. Right you are then
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted August 26, 2002 08:27 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 26 Aug 2002
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Too late and too much information to reply to and take Abazagaroth's lead and refrain as I am sure at this time it would come off quite attacking.
The only one point that I would make is that to assume because some one believes in a party platform in no way can be equated with the thought that that person has not struggeled with the issues on their own.
And lastly excessive taxes are wrong....charity is great....my belief is tax us less as some of us are already giving a lot in charity which does a better job on the whole for providing services.
Oh and Abazagaroth pass the crack pipe please...haha
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