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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 01, 2002 03:00 AM |
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Lews
I agree, that's why I mentioned and supported your points, but like I said he's no-one's idea of a catholic, other than the church at the time, which was clearly in the wrong.
Perhaps evil was the wrong word, but your posts seem to be saying you don't like religion in general because of the actions of organised religion in the past, so I geuss my point should be taking such a one sided view of the history of Christianity is wrong in the same why taking a view that it was all good is wrong.
To quote a few good men "tell me in the field manual where it tells you where the mess hall is?" It's not there exactly, the book is disjointed and hard at times to define, but the clear message to me would be that of redemption, love and respect and not slaves, killing and war. You have to read the whole and determine it for yourself unfortunately, everyone comes to their own conclusions of course, but you don't find in a book like say LOTR a bit which says this is the philosophy of the book and defines what it is about. you don't see that in pretty much most books, so to expect the bible to contain it is a little unrealistic.
On the last point who knows? I think that terrorists of all backgrounds are killers, first and foremost, that is often why peace is unreachable, because a hardcore of thugs who's only care is to kill and harm. Religion is an excuse for these people, if you took that away from them, they turn to nationalism, then to border disputes and so on. For these kinds of people there can never be enough concessions, the enemy can never do enough to help peace. If you know much about the koran you will know that muslim religion despises killing, and even in the time of jihad they are supposed to persue diplomatic means to the extreme first. Not exactly in line with what the terrorists carry out really..............
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 05:12 AM |
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Perhaps evil was the wrong word, but your posts seem to be saying you don't like religion in general because of the actions of organised religion in the past, so I geuss my point should be taking such a one sided view of the history of Christianity is wrong in the same why taking a view that it was all good is wrong.
Privatehudson, personally I´m rather indifferent about any religions, as long as they stay where they belong:
1) They should be everyone´s private matter, and
2) everyone´s free choice.
Christian religion oversteps both these boundaries by far:
1) Its representants have large political power, they influence political decisions, have their ideologies taught in schools and universities (and the right to fire teachers of religion/theology lessons), they collect taxes and are given huge amounts of further money from the state i.e. for welfare facilities, where they do not employ people who follow no or a different confession.
2) Children of Christians are usually given no choice, they are baptized shortly after their birth and indoctrinated at an age when they are intellectually defenseless. Even you, as an atheist, show a high opinion of the Christian concept of groundless faith (you wrote "followed ... faithfully and made the world a better place"). IMO this Christian faith is nothing but the induced incapacity to criticise its teachings, to shut down their ability to reflect on their world view.
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you don't see that in pretty much most books, so to expect the bible to contain it is a little unrealistic.
Most books don´t self-contradict themselves all the time. I see no reason why Jesus´ "love your enemies" is more at its core than his "follow me or go to hell and be tortured forever" or his "Canaan´s are dogs" or his "slaves should obey their masters".
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On the last point who knows? I think that terrorists of all backgrounds are killers, first and foremost, that is often why peace is unreachable, because a hardcore of thugs who's only care is to kill and harm..
By law, yes, I agree that they should definately be treated as such. But I think psychologically there is a huge difference. Killers are usually highly egoistic people, willing to do anything for their own advantage. Terrorists on the other hand tend to believe that their actions are altruistic. Of course not all terrorists are religious, but the willingness to sacrifice ones own life for a destructive purpose is hard to imagine without the faithful belief in an afterlife.
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Religion is an excuse for these people, if you took that away from them, they turn to nationalism, then to border disputes and so on.
Hmm, that´s a good argument, some people just seem to need an extremist ideology, need someone to hate. But still, the roots for religious motivations are much more widespread and planted much earlier.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 07:35 AM |
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The following is a look at Christainity’s contribution to the world which in no way is meant to not acknowledge other religions, cultures, nations, etc. contributions to the betterment of mankind. I write it given some peoples opinion that the world would be better off without Christianity as they focus on bleak points of history such as the Inquistion, Crusades, etc.
The rise of Christianity was revolutionary in the strong sense of the word. It had incredibly wide ranging changes upon society for the positive. Particularly when one examines the historical culture at the time….some of these changes were truly heroic and have given rise to the world view we currently have. I will mention some:
1. Changed racism and sexism- Most of human history has been plagued by a racist, ethnocentric, and sexist perspective. The New Testament taught differently “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28) Jesus spent time with the dejected Samaritans and Gentiles (non Jews) which was unheard of from a religious Jew. During that time period these groups were thought of as impure.
2. Changed the view of women-Women back in that time were at best 2nd class citizens….typically they were believed to be the property of their husbands. The Bible teaches differently “[Husbands] must love his wife as he loves himself” (Ephesians 5:33). Plato thought that if a man lived a cowardly life, he would be reincarnated as woman. In Christianity women were prophetesses and the Gospels courageously record that women were the first witnesses to Christ’s resurrection (Jews did not allow a woman to testify in Court). Jesus spent time with women….healing them, talking with them, befriending them…whereas many Jews wouldn’t even want to be around them as they were viewed as less than man and unclean. Both man and women were created out of God’s image. Divorce…man could divorce his wife by saying I divorce you in front of a witness and then she was destitute, poverty striken, and rejected. Jesus’ challenged the divorce culture which brought a huge protection for women. Pologomay was the mainstay in many cultures virutally reduciing women to a harrem whereas Christianity teaches men to have only one wife.
3. challenged our view on illness, disease and deformities- during the time those who were ill/deformed were largly ignored, rejected or more typically thought of as causing their own condition by their sins....”who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind..neither this man nor his parents said Jesus” (John 9:2-3), During Roman times hospitals were not available for the common people only the rich and the military. Jesus was continually performing miracles of the common people to cure them of their illness. In 325 the Council of Nicaea made a ruling that declared hospitals were the duty of the church.
4. Changed the bar of morality- the Golden rule comes from the Bible “love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 19:19) ….before that the tyical moral standard was “eye for eye” and at its highest was “don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want others to do to you”….which is a lower moral bar.
5. Changed the value of human life. During the ancient world child sacrifice and infanticide were common even during Roman times. Children had little value at the time but Jesus stated “Let the little children come Me (Matthew 19:14). A majority of religions and gods were feared with great trepidation and were quite cruel to their adherants…capricious at best in their interactions with humans...they wanted to dominate and control their believers….they acted more like vain dictators. In Christainity this was very different….here God lowered himself to become a man and moreover actually allowed himself to be killed so that humans could be saved from eternal destruction.
Slavery was very common. In the New Testament the writers elevate slaves to the status of “bothers”. Acts 10:34 states “God shows no partiality”… Christianity bestows inherent value in being humans in that we were “created in God’s image”. The whole book of Philemon was written in support of the slave Onesimus. During the reign of Constantine and Justinian both who were Christians…legislation was ordered “to protect the slave, the prisoner, the mutilated man, the outcast woman”.
Gladiators at that time killed each other for entertainment purposes…Emperor Constantine outlawed such practices and monk Talemaches leaped into the arena to stop the fights while the crowed repaid him by stoning him to death….his death largely brought about the cessation of this murderous sport.
6. changed the view of the poor/needy- Poor people have always been scorned and uncared for during much of our collective history. The Bible has hundreds upon hundreds of scriptures admonishing people to care for the poor and needy. “In so much as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren you did it to me (Mathew 25:40). Some brief examples spurred since Biblical times are the thousands of missions, the Salvation Army, George Muellers infamous orphanages, the YMCA, World Relief, World Vision, Compassion International, Mother Teresa, Saint Nicholas, etc. Even the Gallop poll has found that churchgoers tend to be more generous in their giving to charity.
7. Enhancement of freedom and liberty- Too much of history is constructed out of control, domination, and the lack of freedom. II Corinthians states “where the Sprit of he Lord is, there is liberty”. Galations 5:1 states “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free”
In addition Christianity has had a big impact on the advancement of humanity since the time of the Bible
1. Slavery- During roman times half of the population were slaves…both before that time and after things were not much different. In the 19th century evangelist William Wilberforce was a major factor in changing the worlds opinion and treatment of slaves particularly in the British parliament. Two thirds of the abolitionist society in 1835 were preachers. Abraham Lincoln was a devout Christian and of course led one of America’s bloodiest battles in freeing slaves.
2. Enhanced education- Christians founded Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. The Protestant Reformation was a big step towards educating the masses in contrast to the medieval church’s iron grasp upon knowledge. The evangelical Christian Comenisu is generally known as “the father of modern education”. Christian William McGuffey authored McGuffeys Eclectic Reader which was the backbone of grammar education in America. Many thousands of missions in third world countries throughout history converted unwritten language to writing and taught reading and writing to the people.
3. America/ Capitalism - Contemporary America was founded by the Christian pilgrims. Samuel Adams a devout Christian is considered the Father of the American Revolution. Others that were inspired by their Christian beliefs in the forming of the USA are Patrick Henry, John Witherspoon, George Washington, John Quincy, etc. A minimum of 50 out of 53 writers of the constitution were Christians. The “sin nature” of man impacted the infamous doctrine of separation of powers in the USA (executive, legislative, judicial). Even the great French sociologist Tocqueville observed that religion gave birth to America. Capitalist thought has been attributed to the works of preacher John Calvin (See Max Weber, etc.). Closely related to capitalism is the “Protestant Work Ethic”
4. Growth of sciences and technology- The explosion of modern scientific knowledge is largely a result of the Protestant Reformation. The man credited with developing the scientific method, Francis Bacon relied heavily on the Bible. Other devout Christians who impacted modern science in a powerful way were Johannes Kepler, Pascal, Isaac Newton, Joseph Lister, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Robert Boyle, etc. Florence Nightingale, Pasteur and Lister are credited with modernizing medical care, all Christians. The amazing work of the Red Cross was founded by the Christian Henry Dunant. Under Christain beliefs both historically and currently hospitals have flourished more than anytime before. Gutenberg press was the first printing press that made the mass production of books possible
7. Advanced the arts- More poems have been written, more stories created and more pictures painted about Jesus than any other historical figure. Music- the founder of modern musical notation was monk Guido of Arezzo. The founder of modern music was Bach. Handel was also Christian. The Negro Spirituals had a direct impact on the creation of blues music and correspondingly upon rock music. Michelangelo was a devout believer. Great Christian themes inspired amazing works of Raphael, Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt. Infamous writers Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, John Bunyan, John Milton, CS Lewis, Leo Tolstoy, TS Eliot, JRR Tolkien, Lord Tennyson, Dorothy Sayers were all believers. Philosophy- Kierkegaard, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Hobbes, Locke, William of Ockham, Anselm of Canterbury, CS Lewis etc.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 08:17 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 1 Oct 2002
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PrivateHudson
Truly honest intellectual posts given the fact that you are not religious you seem to try to be fair.
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“I think that the Christian concept of an almighty and all-knowing god in conjuction with free will is self-contradictory. If god is all-knowing, then this implies knowledge of what we do before we do it, which means that we have no free will.”
This is exactly what I meant by the fact that most people have a hard time understanding the Bible at first glance. God could of made robots who do his every whim and exclaim his goodness upon the push of a button, but instead the history of the Bible is…”examine me, test me, decide for yourself”. The concept of foreknowledge or even predetermination for that fact are not exclusive of free will by any sense of the word. I will concur there is a large contingent of Calvinist who don’t believe in absolute free will (again you need to examine the issues more deeply to truly understand the full continuum of free will as it relates to theology…it is not as simplistic as some might naively assume)….but as far as what is known as “irresistible grace” (which is a complete annihilation of free will)…only few Calvinists ascribe to that. The other mainstay system of which I ascribe is Wesleyan theology that believes staunchly in free will. Both theologies are accepted in mainstream Christianity and neither perspective is a salvation issue.
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“I have not heard this before, do you know from what year it is? “
For that quote see “The Ten Commandments: Ten Short Novels of Hitler’s War Against the Moral Code” 1943. In Mein Kampf Hitler blamed the Church for perpetuating the ideas and laws of the Jews. Are you denying that Hitler relied heavily on Neitche? It was Nietzsche who declared that God is dead. Are you denying Hitler’s well documented belief and experimentation in the occult? How could a Christian who’s Lord is Jesus of Nazareth, a JEW, command the execution of Jews?
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“if an idea continually has bad consequences, this indicates that the idea itself is bad.”
I completely agree…interesting….I would assume you are an atheist and yet two of the most prominent atheists in history killed more people in the last 100 years than alleged Christians have killed in the last 2000 years…I will address that more later.
So the consequences of a belief… please show me in the New Covenant (new testament) where any principle or verse encourages killing others. Where in the New Testament does it encourage setting anything up like the Inquisition or the Crusades? Where did Jesus teach to force others by the sword to accept him as savior? Where did Jesus teach to burn alleged witches?
The new Testament is most marked by its almost apolitical view of the world. The Jews constantly wanted Jesus to be the Messiah they thought the Old Testament predicted and take on the role of a mighty military leader to thwart the Roman empire….he continually declined entering the political arena. To ascribe any of those evils on Christianity is to ignore what Christianity teaches….it is that simple. Does Jesus preach a military revolt, a Jihad, a war on non-believers? Does he ever burn people alive? Does he encourage the execution of sinners? No this is the man who told people who were about to stone an adulterous “if any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" (John 8:7) But the New Covenant says to “pray for those who persecute you”. Does that sound like the mindset of any of the perpetrators of evil that you mention?
As I mentioned before the Bible is a very complex book that requires one to look at the whole of the book rather than take specific verses out of context. Lews you seem to be a smart man, but I would challenge that your understanding of the Bible is lacking. Greater men then us have spent their lives in devotion to studying, exploring, and unraveling theology.
Also going back to the mythology of the evil deeds done by the church. Look at how exaggerated that is. How many died from the evil deeds of the inquisition and the crusades, and the witch burning…..an incredible exaggerated number might place it at 17 million. Compare that to the Nazi leader Hitler who killed 15-16 million people, or Communist leader Stalin who killed 40 million people, Mao killed 60-70 million. So in the very short period of less than 100 years 2 atheists and 1 occultist killed 116-126 million people whereas in 2000 years of Christianity people who claimed they were Christians killed the over inflated number of 17 million. All the murders were evil….all inexcusable…all and abomination….but lets please put this in perspective.
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“ Being German or French is a heritage, while being Christian or communist is an ideology.”
That seems like a dodge….it was the current German people’s fathers and grandfathers who not only placed Hitler in power but proudly followed his atrocious and murderous plans (not even to mention WW I). Mind you I don’t hold contemporary Germans responsible, yet you seem to be trying to hold accountable Christains/christianity and today’s church for acts that they not only have no immediate relationship to, and which have NOTHING to do with any of the teachings of Jesus? Seems like a perplexing double standard.
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The problem here is, if you ask 10 Christians about what these principles are, you get 11 different answers.”
That is a very inaccurate which I am sure is due not to an intention to deceive but due to ignorance about the facts. I would assume this may be in part to the fact that the church has largely been dead if not on life support in most of Europe (save Italy) for quite sometime. Your experience with the church in Europe might lead someone to completely erroneous ideas of what the mainstream Christian church looks like or believes in most of the rest of the world.
There is a wise saying that I will paraphrase. “in essentials unity, in nonessentials grace, in all issues love”. On the essentials (salvation issues predominately) of mainline Christianity you will enormous unity of thought….only on the nonessentials (not salvation issues such as worship service style, hierarchy of leadership, baptism practices, communion practices, political theory, beliefs about divorce, etc.) will you find healthy diversity.
Ask any educated mainstream Christian what are the underlying principles of Christianity and you will come up almost an exact same list which includes but is not limited to: man’s depravity/sinful nature, God’s holiness, Jesus atonement/death for our sin, Jesus’ resurrection, Salvation/justification by faith/grace not works, confession of Jesus as Lord, belief in the Trinity, belief in God character (holy, just, omniscient, omnipotent, good, etc.) the second coming, moral laws of forgiveness, holiness, love, faith, hope, etc,..
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“ [the church/Christians ]they influence political decisions”
So everyone is granted freedom of speech except Christians?
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“[the church/Christians ] have their ideologies taught in schools and universities”
Where are you talking about?….not in America I can assure you if you mean to imply state sponsorship.
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“[the church/Christians ]they collect taxes and are given huge amounts of further money from the state i.e. for welfare facilities”
Again where are you talking about?….definitely not in America.
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“Children of Christians are usually given no choice, they are baptized shortly after their birth and indoctrinated at an age when they are intellectually defenseless.”
Hmmm here we call that parental rights….you teach your kids your beliefs as you are responsible for their upbringing whether you are Christian, Atheist, Communist, etc.
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“focus on what their priests tell them about these bibles, which usually is highly selective - only the nice parts.”
Incorrect. The Protestant reformation was founded upon the Latin phrase that I will write incorrectly “sola scriptoria” meaning only scripture as the foundation of faith. No longer is there an human intermediary (priest, pastor) who relays God’s revelation to us (and there never was suppose to be according to the new Testament…there again another example of how the catholic church became corrupt during periods of history). We are strongly encouraged and admonished to read he scriptures ourselves daily…even the difficult parts. The study of theology is popular among Christains and believers are continually digging into the Bible to understand it and seek personal guidance.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 01, 2002 11:23 AM |
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Damn it why am I finding myself writing essays?  (
Lews
Interesting thoughts on christianity, personally I am inclined to agree that it can be restrictive and dominating as if I did believe in god I doubt I could belong to a specific religion. Worship and my faith is a matter for me and whatever diety, not an entire church.
You do have some points on it's inlfuence on life, the church in general dominated Europe's politics in the past, and in many countries continues to do so, be that religion Jewish, Catholic, Protestant or Muslim. On me I happen to have been brought up by Christians, but my parents believed in giving me the choice in the matter. Not alll christian parents force their children into belief.
On the books issue, most coherent books do not have in excess of a few dozen authors, which I'm sure does not help to determine it's single points of view and single message.
On the terrorists, I shall clarify as my only experience involves IRA terrorist who do not committ suicide for their cause, but nonetheless are murderers. No matter what the people who blew up the WTC thought their motives where, they do not coincide with Islamic principles, any more than the IRA are part of mainstream catholic dogma. What shames both religions is that often neither church denounces the actions of these people, when quite clearly they should.
Dargon
hmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting STOP AGREEING WITH ME! 
On your point of education, that is interesting as though the protestants enhanced the sciences, they were only forced to do that because of the negative effect brought about by the catholic church until that point. They do teach many people though that's correct. What baffles me though is the strange relationship the church holds with science. they use it when it suits them to prove something is a miracle (ie the unexplainable cure) yet shy away from it whenever it questions a base faith, such as darwin (which was soundly criticised by all churches)
On the catholic Hitler thing, like I said hitler liked to be all things to all people. It won him support to carry out his henious crimes. He used democracy and law when it suited him as well, but truly believed in neither, so that perhaps shows that though he claimed to be catholic, he clearly was not.
17 million? hmmmmmmmmmm interesting, I'd like to see proof of just how that figure is brought about.....
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 04:11 AM |
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Science
Science has a scientific method and as such there is a continuum from hypothesis to verifiable experimentation/fact. Many issues in Science are along this continuum and have not yet reached the level of evidence to be labeled a scientific fact. The theory of evolution is one such issue.
Also while most Christians don’t subscribe to evolution there is a contingent of Christians who believe in what is called theistic evolution or progressive creationism…these people incorporate the theory of evolution into their Christian world view.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 05:42 AM |
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told ya so
Inspections
To all those who were so excited and took Saddam at his word....remember 2 weeks ago "unconditional return of inspectors"....well now it is official....there are conditions....we can't do surprise inspections of Saddams palaces....all 12 acres of them including 100's of buildings... really nice places to hide weapons of mass murder (makes as much sense as telling a heroin dealer that you are going to search his home in 7 days). Wish I was wrong.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 07:00 AM |
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To regress back to ozone
Smallest ozone hole in 13-14 years!
Latest news you can find at http://www.msnbc.com/news
“The ozone hole over Antarctica is markedly smaller this year than in the last few years and has split in two, government scientists reported Monday. The so-called “hole,” actually an area of thinner than normal ozone, was measured at 6 million square miles in September. That compares with around 9 million square miles on September measurements over the last six years, according to researchers at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and National Aeronautics and Space Agency.”
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 04:04 PM |
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The concept of foreknowledge or even predetermination for that fact are not exclusive of free will by any sense of the word.
I think it is, if our actions are predeterminated, then we have no real choice, then free will is just an illusion.
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For that quote see “The Ten Commandments: Ten Short Novels of Hitler’s War Against the Moral Code” 1943.
As I had suspected it´s from his latest years. As I showed above, at the very least until 1941 Hitler was a Christian, a catholic. Later in your posting, when it´s about the number of deaths, you even label him "atheist" - I don´t think there´s any single bit of ground for that at all.
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In Mein Kampf Hitler blamed the Church for perpetuating the ideas and laws of the Jews.
In "Mein Kampf", Hitler wrote:"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Doesn´t sound very atheistic to me.
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Are you denying that Hitler relied heavily on Neitche? It was Nietzsche who declared that God is dead. Are you denying Hitler’s well documented belief and experimentation in the occult?
Nietzsche did not only say "Gott ist Tod", he also was full of contempt for antisemites. Following your logic, we could not regard Hitler an antisemite anymore. And regarding the occult, from what I have heard and read this only applies to Heinrich Himmler. Hitler made use of various runes and symbols for his propaganda, but didn´t have much to do with mysticism. Not that it would matter much, many religious (and non-religious) people are superstitious, for example read horoscopes.
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How could a Christian who’s Lord is Jesus of Nazareth, a JEW, command the execution of Jews?
 Seems like I know your book better than you do. Here is what Jesus says to the Jews who do not follow him:
"I speak what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and therefore you do what you have heard from your father." "Our father is Abraham!" they replied.
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You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.John 8:38-45
He also uses the phrase "synagogue of Satan" for the Jews who do not follow him (= convert to Christianty).
I think it´s obvious that the painful suffering of the Jews during the last 2000 years has its roots in the bible. Dargon, if I understand you correctly, you are a protestant. Did you know that Martin Luther not only burned alleged witches, but also called out for the burning of the synagogues and the homes of the Jews?
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So the consequences of a belief… please show me in the New Covenant (new testament) where any principle or verse encourages killing others. Where in the New Testament does it encourage setting anything up like the Inquisition or the Crusades? Where did Jesus teach to force others by the sword to accept him as savior?
First of all, Jesus strongly approves of the writing of the Old Testament, that are full of murder and cruelties: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew5:17-18
But of course there´s plenty in the New Testament as well. How about these words of Jesus:
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Matthew10:33-35
Some more words of Jesus:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Here is a short example for your question regarding the crusades (I can give you more if you´re interested):
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2.Thessalonians1:8
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Where did Jesus teach to burn alleged witches?
Jesus commanded his followers to obey the OLd Testament, which says:
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus1:8
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But the New Covenant says to “pray for those who persecute you”. Does that sound like the mindset of any of the perpetrators of evil that you mention?
He also threatens the ones who do not follow him with hell and be tortured forever - that very much sounds like the abovementioned mindset.
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Lews you seem to be a smart man, but I would challenge that your understanding of the Bible is lacking.
We disagree here. You seem to think that it requires belief to understand the bible. In my opinion the opposite is the case, from early childhood most Christians have learned to be faithful, which makes it very hard for them to be critical and objective.
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Greater men then us have spent their lives in devotion to studying, exploring, and unraveling theology.
This doesn´t intimidate me at all.
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Also going back to the mythology of the evil deeds done by the church. Look at how exaggerated that is. How many died from the evil deeds of the inquisition and the crusades, and the witch burning…..an incredible exaggerated number might place it at 17 million.
Where did you get this number from? Different sources say that for example the inquisition (13.-18. century) killed up to 10 millions, and the crusades (11.-13. century) up to 22 millions. According to Deschner, the burning of alleged witches (16.-18. century) took around 9 millions of lifes (this number is disputed, other estimations are lower).
Besides, is it just me, or has noone mentioned here what the catholic church did in Ruanda? The church would have had the power to stop the mass murder against the Tutsi, but instead the priests and nuns even supported it.
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Mind you I don’t hold contemporary Germans responsible, yet you seem to be trying to hold accountable Christains/christianity and today’s church for acts that they not only have no immediate relationship to, and which have NOTHING to do with any of the teachings of Jesus? Seems like a perplexing double standard.
You are still comparing an ideology to a heritage, this makes no sense. And in the quotations above should prove that those inhumanities had ALOT to do with the teachings of the bible.
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So everyone is granted freedom of speech except Christians? In Germany we have a saying of a thief who cries out "Hold the thief!" Here is what the former US president George Bush said in an interview in 1987:
"Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
GB:"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
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Where are you talking about?….not in America I can assure you if you mean to imply state sponsorship.
I´m talking about Germany, schools and universities teach Christian religion and Theology. Wasn´t there a judgement a few months ago, against prayers in American schools?
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Hmmm here we call that parental rights….you teach your kids your beliefs as you are responsible for their upbringing whether you are Christian, Atheist, Communist, etc.
What I value is not atheism as such, but the relative freedom of mind. I won´t teach my children to be atheists. I´ll let them choose when they´re old enough to doubt and criticise. If they then become Christian conservatives, that´s okay with me and far better than if I had educated them to be liberal atheists. I do not believe that my opinion is the absolute truth, so why would I teach it as such?
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No longer is there an human intermediary ...
But how many Christians do actually read the bible? It´s only a very small part. They believe what their priests read out to them, single bits of do-good stuff torn out of the context of a book that largely teaches archaic and inhuman ethics.
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2002 04:10 PM |
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do you guys never get bored of tossing and smart babbling? war is never the answer, what more is there to say?
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Igraine
Hired Hero
sick of it all
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posted October 03, 2002 04:15 PM |
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LOL..I was wondering when that oneliner would show up..LOL
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the lady of the lake
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 04, 2002 02:16 AM |
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*jumps in*
Alright, lot's of great stuff has been said in these political thread's. -
My whole summary is..
The most beautiful thing I've heard since 11sep01* is "target iraq"
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 04, 2002 12:58 PM |
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I just noticed that I haven´t responded to your other posting, Dargon.Quote:
Changed racism and sexism- Most of human history has been plagued by a racist, ethnocentric, and sexist perspective. The New Testament taught differently ...
I find it hard to believe that you seriously say such a thing. First of all, your insistence on pointing out the New Testament as a first class word of god does not correspond with the words of Jesus on that subject (Matthew5:17-18, see my above posting). And the Old Testament glorifies genocides that are ordered by god (Jahwe), the slaughtering of men, women and children, because they are (I´ll use the German expression here)
Kanaaniter, Amoniter, Hetiter, Medianiter, ... . In the New Testament, the Jewish people´s being a minority against the Roman empire keeps them from commiting more of such massacres, but Jesus´ qualifying the woman from Kanaan as dog and the non-Christian Jews as children of the devil shows that there has not been a fundamental change of mentality between the old and the new books.
On the other matter "the bible changed sexism", this seems even more absurd to me. Dargon, you tried to prove your point by incompletely quoting Ephesians5:33,Quote:
“[Husbands] must love his wife as he loves himself”
leaving out the end of the sentence: , and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Furthermore, this is a direct follow-up of Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Read also 1Kor.11:3-9, 1Tim.2:11-15, Tit.2:3-5 and 1Petr.3:1-7 for more informations about the woman´s role in the New Testament. Without such highly selective reading and ripping words out of their context, it should become clear that the woman in the New Testament is not much more than a slave, she only deserves to be loved by her husband if she serves him well and meekly. There is a certain progress towards the even more terrible attitude of the Old Testament, but that´s really nothing to be proud of.
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challenged our view on illness, disease and deformities ... Jesus was continually performing miracles of the common people to cure them of their illness.
In our time, people are performing such so-called miracles, too, and are despised and laughed at by every rational person, unless he or she is really desperate. But when they are written in a 2000-year-old book, they are supposed to be true.
Besides, some of the people that have been "healed" by Jesus can easily be diagnosed as epileptics by our modern medical science. And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.Mark9:20
But Jesus, the son of god, heals him with the words: ..."Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him."Mark9:25 Later he tells his disciples: And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. Mark9:29
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Changed the bar of morality- the Golden rule comes from the Bible “love your neighbor as yourself“
Okay, lets for a moment ignore the fact that this morality comes from a man who constantly threatens the ones who don´t follow him with eternal (!) torture (just close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine how cruel that is). What is the practical use of such an unrealistic demand, can it lead to anything but hypocrisy? In today´s politics, in countries where Christianity has a strong influence (like yours, the US), are the Christians sharing all of their possessions with the starving people in Africa? Is the pope doing so? Does your Christian fundamentalist gouvernment love the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan as much as the citizens of North America? Do you love your neighbour to the same degree with which you love yourself, Dargon? I don´t, myself, my girlfriend and my friends are much more important to me than some anonymous person on the street.
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Changed the value of human life. During the ancient world child sacrifice and infanticide were common even during Roman times.
Abraham follows god´s order to sacrifice his own son, and yet Jesus emphasises the absolute authority of the Old Testament (Matthew5:17-18, I´ve already quoted this). Besides, I wouldn´t think well of someone who sends his own son to the most painful kind of execution that has been invented so far (crucification). The necessity of such a cruel blood sacrifice in order so "save humanity" does not make any sense to me.
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Slavery was very common. ... [it was] ordered “to protect the slave, the prisoner, the mutilated man, the outcast woman”.
Should not a book that contains godly moral forbid slavery at all? What it did was exactly the opposite, it explicitly tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, because their status is god´s will (Tit.2;9,10 I´ve already quoted it above). Can you imagine the effect of such a teaching in history? Religious people that were slaves not only had to fear their owner´s anger if they tried to escape or put up resistance, but they were also promised eternal torture in hell.
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In addition Christianity has had a big impact on the advancement of humanity since the time of the Bible
Advancement of humanity has mostly been made against the church, by Humanism and Enlightenment movements. Science has always been bound and gagged by the church, unless its results fitted into the Christian dogmatic. If that wasn´t the case, the "holy" inquisition threatened to incarcerate or even burn them, which they for example did to Giordano Bruno - an Italian monk whose intense studies brought him to the conclusion that we were living in an infinite universe, on a star like infinitely other stars. People were kept from studying books unless they became monks or priests. Under that light it seems cynical to me that you list the names of historical Christian scientists in your posting.
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Contemporary America was founded by the Christian pilgrims.
Let´s not forget that they also murdered 100 millions of native Americans.
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted October 04, 2002 04:27 PM |
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"Let´s not forget that they also murdered 100 millions of native Americans."
Let's not forget that there are only about 260 million people in America today. There weren't "100 millions" of Native Americans back then.
I'm not condoning their actions, but get your facts straight.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 04, 2002 06:51 PM |
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considering that the population of the earth was about 10 million in those times, "thousands" of those times equal to "millions" of today.
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Anyways, today the Kurdish parliament was gathered. This means the unofficial foundation of a Kurdistan.
US will obviously ignore the UN decisions. Saddam cannot prevent the war even though he accepts to leave Iraq. All US lacked was support of the countries in the area. And the foundaiton (unofficial) of Kurdistan will provide US the support they needed.
In Turkey the preparations for the war has begun. US has managed to trick the area countries by supporting and helping the gathering of the Kurdish parliament. When the war begins Turkey and Arabs will be attacking Kurdistan not Iraq.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 04, 2002 09:28 PM |
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The idea that the christians killed 10 million native americans is perhaps a little far fetched. Perhaps something close to that number did die, but many of those died of diseases for which they had no possible hope of fighting. This is hardly the fault of the pilgrim settlers. What is of course the fault of the settlers and their follwers down the years is the mass resettlements of indian tribes, the constant denial of land rights, the constant wars often for little reason other than land grabbing and the terrible conditions these people were forced to live in since then.
Whether this amounts to 10 million and whether this is solely the fault of the christian faith is VERY debatable though
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 04, 2002 11:44 PM |
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but many of those died of diseases for which they had no possible hope of fighting. This is hardly the fault of the pilgrim settlers.
Most of the diseases were brought by the settlers.
And pls remember the plague blankets which your innocent civilized settlers delivered to the evil savage barbarian natives.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2002 02:36 AM |
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Whether this amounts to 10 million ...
The number that I wrote down (100000000) is from a theologist named "Boff" and relates to a time span of 150 years. It might very well be wrong, but this doesn´t change anything about the fact of a terrible genocide against the native Americans, comitted by those Christian settlers.
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and whether this is solely the fault of the christian faith is VERY debatable though
PH, where did I say this?? Dargon pointed at those settlers, as an example of the goodness of Christian religions!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 05, 2002 02:48 AM |
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If you read my post you will see I agree that the settlers and following people of america are very guilty of the crimes of that genocide. I was just trying to say that many of those indians who died during the period may or may not be accounted for by the diseases brought by the settlers, a effect the settlers could not have forseen. Many were victims of deliberate killings, something the christian faith has only recently appologised for(in the case of south america that is) and be ashamed of.
And on the last point it's hard to read something like "Let´s not forget that they also murdered 100 millions of native Americans." Right after the a point about christian people and not assume you meant that it was the sole fault of christian settlers.
Good point though, it's hard to hold up the settlers as nice christian people when many of them were actively involved in murdering natives. I just wanted to say that not all the killings were by christians, nor were they all deliberate. If this coincides with your points then I'm sorry, it's just yours wasn't too clear
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2002 02:57 AM |
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Attack Iraq: Yes
Now close the thread please.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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