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reynaert
Adventuring Hero
Nicknamed the Fox
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posted February 26, 2003 01:14 PM |
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 26, 2003 02:28 PM |
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Well, it's going to... This thread will probably be one hundred pages long in no time.
I come from Serbia, and some of you may remember my country was bombed by the US in 1999 because of Milosevic's reign of terror in Kosovo.
I didn't kill anybody, and I don't know anybody who did. I voted against the dictator and protested against his politics like millions of Serbs did. Then we got the bombs.
Mostly civilians died, both Serbs and Albanians. Every day someone was gone. Sometimes one person in a village far away, sometimes a hundred in a town nearby.
But this time it's even more ridiculous... and it will be even more terrible.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 02, 2003 01:09 PM |
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I would imagine Dargon would be most interested to see Turkey snubbing american efforts to place troops within their country....... it would appear Franco/German efforts were indeed sucessful to some extent after all. Quite a blow, I wonder if the american and british papers will have the guts to attack the Turks with insults like they did the french over not supporting a war........
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted March 02, 2003 10:56 PM |
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Yes, PrivateHudson, the Turks have recently voted against having American armed forces staging up for a war in their own area, and also, a lot of Turks are against a war on Iraq.
However, Saddam Hussein is now starting to co-operate with the UN in its destroying of weapons of mass destruction, but America and Co. says it is not enough, but I really think that America and Co. want to attack Iraq anyway, don't you think?
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No one knows my true nature here...
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reynaert
Adventuring Hero
Nicknamed the Fox
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posted March 02, 2003 11:27 PM |
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 03, 2003 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
However, Saddam Hussein is now starting to co-operate with the UN in its destroying of weapons of mass destruction, but America and Co. says it is not enough, but I really think that America and Co. want to attack Iraq anyway, don't you think?
He could go into exile and it still wouldn't be enough. The anglo/american alliance is cemented in the ideal of war being the sole solution, despite their rhetoric. As such he'll never satisfy them.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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reynaert
Adventuring Hero
Nicknamed the Fox
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posted March 03, 2003 10:51 AM |
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Well, if you want something badly, like a child, you aren't going to leave that something because someone comes with reasonnable arguments???
Anyway, I am happy Turkish parliament voted 'no'... This should be a clear signal NOT to attck Iraq...
Message in the newspapers (translated)
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US listening to phone calls and email of non-permanent UN nations
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US using so-called 'creditcard-diplomatics' on doubting member of UN
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http://guardiansgrove.com/
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 03, 2003 05:41 PM |
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PrivateHudson, as a Brit citizen, how do you feel about this Anglo-American alliance? Part of me is greatly releived that somebody of Blair's caliber is standing by us through all this. But I also understand that your fearless leader is taking a lot of heat from a large majority of his constituency because they do not necessarily see eye-to-eye with him.
On the other hand, does the thought of Saddam flying over and releasing large amounts of chemical or biological agent he successfully keeps hidden by tricking the world into believing he is complying with 1441 make you nervous? I mean, you guys are a lot closer to him than we are (or is my global "perspective" a little warped?) And you're probably on Saddam's radar screen now if you weren't before...
Personally my initial reaction was to avoid war if at all possible. I thought it would be a little like beating a hornet's nest with a baseball bat. Sure you might kill the ones you hit. But what about the ones you miss?
On the other hand, I am now beginning to wonder if there is any way to keep him from gassing another big bunch of people without taking him out. I recall hearing that his psychologial profile does not lend to his cooperation in disarmament AT ALL. I can't recall exactly the source now but remember thinking it sounded reliable like a Middle-East analyst from one of the universities or something???). The analysis concerned the unlikelihood of Saddam disarming voluntarily (i.e. without being invaded). There were three reasons the analysis led to the conclusion that Saddam will NEVER disarm peacefully, primarily that he maintains the belief that the first time we backed down after the Gulf War it was because he still possessed weapons of mass destruction. He further believes himself to be the great unifying leader of the war against the Big Evil West on behalf of all fundamentalist Muslims (their Tecumseh, if you will) and that his weapons comprise his single greatest source of leverege in achieving success in that war. The final thing was, I think, linked to his peculiar personality disorder (you know, something like Hyperactive
Testosterone Gangland Mentality Braindamage or something similar which probably appears in the DSM IV as "HTGMB.") His totally dysfunctional ego (which I believe also appears in the DSM IV as "TDE") is so invested in the
image he has created of himself that he would probably like melt if somebody pours water on him.
Anyway, the point being that what he is doing right now is finding a few empty shells and running over them with a tracter and saying See, we're complying. Now you can't attack. Personally I am skeptical, much as I wish it were otherwise.
So I guess my question to you is, should we do it now, or wait until another huge tribe of human men, women and little children is lost to us? And if so why -- either way?
On the third hand, why didn't we just go in there quitely and eliminate him? I'm afraid my leader is not only fearless, but somewhat brainless when he makes such inflammatory cracks as the "evil axis." A lot less advertizing of this whole mess would have done us all better.
As for whether to go to war, I seriously don't know what to think.
Finally, is it permissible for me to ask you in a post like this if an administrative officer is the same thing as a hearing officer??? If it is not I apologize and respond cordially to discipline...
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 04, 2003 01:06 AM |
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Firstly I'm a "subject" not a citizen, we don't have the luxury of living without some damn descendant of an ancient line of lunatics and foreigners who's only talents are usually to sponge off the state.
As for Blair's Calibre, that's taking a downward spiral fast at the moment. He'll only win the next election on the basis that the opposition are useless and their leader is boring. It sure won't be because he's liked here anymore.
I'd be worried about Sadam if we gave him a reason to use those weapons on us. I'd imagine not even Hussain is mad enough to give carte blanche to the Anglo/americans by firing off chemical/nuclear weapons prior to a war. In the event of a war frankly I'd rather bloody emigrate to somewhere like Austrlia or Greece well away from it all.
As for possible solutions...... personally I'd have preferred them to use small scale operations long ago using the elite forces to remove him and his immediate inferiors from power and training the Iraquis to fight back against him. Trouble with such operations is that invariably they don't get much press coverage, so there's no sense of seeing something being done.
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So I guess my question to you is, should we do it now, or wait until another huge tribe of human men, women and little children is lost to us? And if so why -- either way?
Why not? We happily let Saudi Arabia and Turkey amongst others do so, why are we singling this nation out would be a better question.......
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Finally, is it permissible for me to ask you in a post like this if an administrative officer is the same thing as a hearing officer??? If it is not I apologize and respond cordially to discipline...
What's a hearing officer? If it's something related to courts then no, I just do office work (filing and computer stuff) to be honest.
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted March 04, 2003 03:40 AM |
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Good posts there, PH and Peacemaker. Well, it is true that we should try to do anything to let Saddam disarm peacefully, leaving war only as a last resort. However, I am becoming more skeptical about the United States' position on its so called Iraq crisis. While the rest of the world and the UN are looking to a more diplomatic solution first before resorting to war, I assume that the US is already fixed to attacking Iraq. So is Britain and Australia, come to think of it.
And as for me, I'll wait for the UN.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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reynaert
Adventuring Hero
Nicknamed the Fox
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posted March 04, 2003 10:02 AM |
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If the us tells britain to jump^of a bridge, they'll happily do so...
Well, the government has made up his mind and NOTHING will stop them from doing what they were planning to do... Iraq needed a big state supporting them (like N-Korea is supported by China) before the US thinks of not attacking them...
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http://guardiansgrove.com/
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 04, 2003 08:22 PM |
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(AAARGH! This is the third time I've accidentally wiped out my reply and had to start over)
--LOL!! -- Thanks for your replies! You guys show a healthy skepticism, and Private Hudson, your points are well-taken, particularly the one about why we're singling out Iraq right at the moment. I recall the stat back in 1987 being that 67% of the wars on the globe were being founght against indigenous populations by nation states into whose borders they'd been arbitrarily and involuntarily been drawn, mostly post WWI. Sadly and as usual, Americans new about virtually none of them. (The Kurds, by the way, are an example of this global phenomenon as I am sure many of you know but just thought I'd mention it.)
On this point (not to digres, but here goes)Americans suffer the illusion that they are told what is going on in the world by the evening news because they have "freedom of the press." Fact is, if is doesn't put their precious SUV's, or some other ostentatious "right" on the block, it doesn't get covered and is treated as though it is of no consequence. As you pointed out, I forgot this for a minute when asking about stopping Saddam. Americans (apparently myself included oddly enough) like to think of their country as some do-gooder superman who goes around the globe protecting other nation-states and doing good things. They don't know beans about what is really happening and what motivates others, and it shows in the way we deal with other nations, as individuals, and as a nation. Sadly, it appears we have failed to learn this most crucial truth, and it is the very thing we should have learned from 9-11. Gaughd we are a hopeless bunch and I hand my head in shame many days because of it.
I know we should take more responsibility seeking out the truth for ourselves and this laziness is part of the problem. But it is also true that most are kept so busy, holding down two jobs to pay for those SUV's and whatever other "necessities" people here have been brainwashed into believing they NEED, that nobody has any time. As a consequence, they do tend to rely on the evening news, and to focus on whatever they are told by that source to focus on.
The problem is endemic. It is one of lifestyle that goes almost completely undetected over here. Problem is the ramifications of this oversight are far more profound than anyone seems to realize. In the current situation the ramifications will be global, possibly permanent, and very likely negative for practically everyone. People over here are far too busy waiving flags and assuming they know what the blitz if going on when they really don't have a clue.
On Blair -- well I suppose these things are a matter of perspective. Perhaps Blair wouldn't look so good to me if Bush weren't my president. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily have it in for Bush or anything. I think he is probably doing about the best he can given what hs has to work with. It just seems like he's going on what he's told on the evening news as well. I just cannot help but see the IQ score flashing at me from the bottom of the screen whenever he and Blair are doing the talking-heads thing together (on the evening news of course) -- Blair: 138. Bush: 99. Of course I have this nightmarish experience whenever I see Bush standing next to ANYBODY. Perhaps this is why I say mantras in thanks to the universe that Powell is in there with him.
I don't quite get why Blair is sticking his neck out so far for this thing though. Perhaps this is one reason I tend to trust him more. He appears to be the only one on the scene who is NOT motivated by politically pleasing his consitutency and getting votes. Just what DO you all think he is doing, anyway???
For PH: On Admin v. Hearing Officer -- too bad you're not in the court system. We need more brains like yours on the bench. (Yes, a hearing officer is like a judge only at the administrative level, like, for instance, government personnel appeals and the like). Ever thought of going to law school? I know those are dirty words to most because so many lawyers are turds, but look at it this way. If you become one, there is one more non-turd lawyer out there than there was before. (That's the way I looked at it and sure hope to hell I was right.)
Sorry about the citizen thing. Chalk it up to American ignorance. If I might ask, what is the status of a "subject???"
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted March 05, 2003 12:11 AM |
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If the us tells britain to jump^of a bridge, they'll happily do so...
Well, the government has made up his mind and NOTHING will stop them from doing what they were planning to do... Iraq needed a big state supporting them (like N-Korea is supported by China) before the US thinks of not attacking them...
Err.. I don't think that George W. Bush will fall off a bridge. If he does, I'm sure that Tony Blair and John Howard would be smart enough not to follow suit.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted March 05, 2003 04:00 AM |
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But it is also true that most are kept so busy, holding down two jobs to pay for those SUV's and whatever other "necessities" people here have been brainwashed into believing they NEED, that nobody has any time. As a consequence, they do tend to rely on the evening news, and to focus on whatever they are told by that source to focus on.
Hmm... why does that sound so familiar? Well to be sure, that does not happen "exclusively" in USA ... trust me. 
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Seize The Day.
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted March 05, 2003 04:04 AM |
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Quote:
But it is also true that most are kept so busy, holding down two jobs to pay for those SUV's and whatever other "necessities" people here have been brainwashed into believing they NEED, that nobody has any time. As a consequence, they do tend to rely on the evening news, and to focus on whatever they are told by that source to focus on.
Hmm... why does that sound so familiar? Well to be sure, that does not happen "exclusively" in USA ... trust me.
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Seize The Day.
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reynaert
Adventuring Hero
Nicknamed the Fox
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posted March 05, 2003 11:03 AM |
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dushan
Hired Hero
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posted March 05, 2003 12:05 PM |
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In my opinion this pre-war state looks like a big market, one it had been just before USA attacked my country (SERBIA) some 3 years ago. Just remember how our "allies" (RUSSIA) sold us...As we all know very well, this is war for money, oil and interests, not democracy, and I fear there is nothing wrong in it, it happened many times in human history, so let's call it the right name...It didn't take USA bombs to bring down Milosevic, we did it ourselves.
Yes, I do think there will be a war, and unfortunately very bloody one.
P.S. this is for vlaad in serbian: hej vlaad, javi mi se na mail ako igras Heroje 4!!
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted March 05, 2003 10:51 PM |
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So... March 15th?
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 05, 2003 11:10 PM |
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Yes Snogard, I'm sure that's the case. I suppose I'm really talking about "Westernization illness..." America is certainly a primary carrier these days, but the disease infects us all globally.
Too bad all our tribal roots and the goodness of the old ways have become so lost in "modernization."
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 06, 2003 12:28 AM |
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Lol poor old peacemaker  Try typing it on word or something and then cutting and pasting  worked for me!
Just one or two things though, I saw in an english satirical magazine called Private Eye (for those that don't know it's a printed, english magazine kinda like the american Onion website and extremely funny) this fortnight something about Iran bringing a case against america in relation to the attacks carried out by american planes, and the weapons sales(inc some components for chemical weapons production) that took place between Iraq and America in the 1980's. Apparently a similar case was brought by Nicaragua a while back over the mining of their ports during america's opposition to the sandanista (sp?) movement there. At first america refused to recognise the right of the court to bring the charges. Then when they accepted such a concept the charges were upheld against them. To date though they have just simply ignored the judgement completely. Given that it's unlikely that the Iran issue will have any signifigant result, but it does highlight the often dirty tactics the west will stoop to to get their aims across.
As for Blair..... I personally don't quite know with 100% certainty what he's up to here. Many Brits, and more than a few newspapers* suspect him of doing this simply because his heads up a certain american bottom too much and that he literally will do anything to please america. There's the whole issue that he may sincerely believe he is doing right on this matter, he does promote his foreign policy as "ethical", but having seen some of the people we willingly sell arms to this is kinda shot out of the water. Most people simply believe it's about oil. Personally I think it's a little of all of these things, combined to the notion that he knows with clear certainty that it's pretty unlikely that he'll loose the next election anyway so he can afford to go to war now as no-one's likely to vote for the other party anyway!
As for the legal profession..... hmm personally given a choice I'd love to work in something historical or something, talking about wars and battles as I like talking about that kind of thing..... Legal profession isn't something I've either ruled in or out though. As for brains, that's subjective...... Ask some of your fellow americans here, they think I'm biased, communist, facist, anti american, etc etc.... look around, you'll find me called all sorts in this forum
* Quick note on the English press
There's a few papers here that are almost always rabidly anti Labour (Blair's party) and extremely right wing, to name one, the Daily Mail. Now unfortunately being right wing they tend to back the clamour for war, but they can't do this without seeming to back labour.... Watching the number of different ways they manage each week to back the war and also attack Blair is an art form I swear......
No-one ever said the papers had to have a concience after all
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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