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privatehudson
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posted July 23, 2003 10:54 PM |
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That said, well boo hoo hoo, whose concerned about winning hearts and minds when they are mortaring you?
The US military damn well should be, that kind of attitude lost you Vietnam. The village in it's entirety was not mortaring the troops was it?
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If the Germans had less forces on the eastern front, they might've been better served on D-day.
Maybe, but you need to be specific about how they'd be better used as I don't precisely see how they could have been without being damaged. Whilst I find it possible, I also find it very unlikely.
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Russia was already getting direct help with supplies. Most of their trucks were ours. It's been said many times in many places that the war would've been lost otherwise.
Granted, but this could have been very easily increased with our own forces not actively needing those arms.
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Strategic bombing. Hmmm. Does not a war win.
Alone no, but it did cripple the german army in the west and reduced the german war effort, which though it increased, would have been many times heavier without bombing, even heavier if it had been increased.
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Anything goes after that point. You and I don't know what happens after d-day fails, only that it will be much much worse. It could've failed though.
Naturally, I think one scenario included the use of nukes in europe rather than over Japan. But I don't think it would spell the end of all hostilities against the Nazis and I highly doubt it would have lead to the americans withdrawing from the fighting there, perhaps concentrating on Japan till they were beat, but they certainly wouldn't have totally ignored Germany
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I don't know if I can accept that at your word. I think Russia was fairly exhausted at the end of the war in terms of the able-bodied fighting men. It is a fact that they lost the most in all categories.
Conservative estimates place their losses at 21 million, of which only 7 million were from their regular army, though large, compared to their population it was.... acceptable. Even so, their partisans were not drafted back to the army, operating as irregular units behind the lines. Stalin also kept an entire army facing the Japanese in Manchuria that could have been stripped and sent west. The people of Poland and other baltic states also did serve in russian armies (though only after seeing the horrors of Nazi Germany, at first they sided with Hitler in many cases), somewhere else troops could be drafted from.
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BTW, if your ever in the U.S. try to get into Aberdeen proving grounds, they have practically every piece of armor from the war. A lot of it is starting to corrode badly now being outside with just a coat of paint. Anzio Annie(Leopold) is in excellent shape though. Tiger II, Elephant, Jadgetiger, T-34, you name it, it's there.
Hmmmmmmm Interesting, but no more so than the following two:
Bovington (in Dorset SW England) Tank Museum: Former home of the Royal Tank Regiment and houses most of the earliest british tanks (ie the oldest anywhere). Contains (to my reccolection, this was 10 years ago)
http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/visitorhome.html
Samur Tank Museum (Middle of France): Former home of the School of Cavalry and houses the only known working King Tiger in the world. Contains:
http://www.musee-des-blindes.asso.fr/blindes/allies.htm
Both Highly reccomended as they both make good attempts to repair and keep in working order their vehicles. Don't think the Samur site is in english, but just use trial and error, they have some good pictures of their collection on the site 
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"Now, the ROK Marines is ranked second in the world for landing battle performance following the United States Marine Corps (USMC) and are still evolving as a "small but powerful force"."
Without wishing to insult the ROK marines, I think this is a little far-fetched. Assuming by "landing battle" they mean a sea-borne invasion, I'd beg to offer the Royal Marines as second to none, and what's more, proven on numerous battlefields and situations since WWII.
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OH happy day...oh happy day...the wicked, evil, detestable sons of the Saddam are dead...killed like the swine deserve....long live the coalition and the liberated Iraqi people. Much praise to our wise leaders Bush and Blair! The world continues to reap the benifits of their courage and wisdom!
Oh dear, you sound more like GWB's own Comical Ali every post. I'm happy they got the swine, I'm not licking the posteriors of people who lied to us over the reasons and aren't exactly falling over themseleves to solve Iraq's problems.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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evilchikin
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 23, 2003 11:30 PM |
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Germany's Mistakes
The Germans, Were stupid to invade Russia.They would have fared off much better if the Kept the act for them to not kill russians. If they did they would have fared much better off. First, they wouldnt have so many castltiesw. If they were on the Western front they would have probboly held off D-Day. Or mabey even Win the War.
In the Battle of Britan, Goering ordered the Lufwaffe to Bomb London, Instead of Military targeets. Im reading a WW II book, and it sad if Goering didnt do that, the germans would probboly win the Battle of Britan And Oporartion Sealion would Commence. Consoquatntly, it said the Axis Powers would then Probboly won WW II.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 23, 2003 11:36 PM |
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Assuming Goering/Hitler hadn't changed their minds, there would still have been the extremly potent Royal Navy to contend with, so whilst difficult to stop the invasion I would imagine the RN intervention would severely hamper, if not utterly stop the German invasion, RAF or no RAF
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted July 23, 2003 11:55 PM |
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Corrected Numbers...
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ANd as for you, Khayman, casulty number is not 150. It is 275. Thasts including traffic accideint and wot not. But Troops Killed in traffic Accidednes still Lower the Other ones Moral. A soldiers best buddy could be in a car and it flips over and he dies. Or another can ne in A Hummer and an RPG lands in his car and it explodes. The soldires Will Get afraid, and sad. Thatds one reason why the Moral is so low. and a seinire Officier nSpoke out agaisnt Rumsfelt.
From the Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/dailynews/204/nation/A_look_at_U_S_daily_casualties:.shtml"As of Wednesday, July 23, 235 U.S. soldiers have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq, according to the Defense Department's most recent figures."
So we were both incorrect; however, I think there were 44 British casualties in addition to that figure.
Sadly, death and destruction are expected during military conflicts, and combat soldiers are trained to overcome those (improvise, adapt, and overcome). Don't let the media persuade you that morale is low, because I can guarantee you that at this point, the morale of the United States military is not 'low'. If you would like to continue to think that it is, by all means, please feel free to think what you like. It's a free world, right?
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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grave00
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posted July 24, 2003 03:40 AM |
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The US military damn well should be, that kind of attitude lost you Vietnam. The village in it's entirety was not mortaring the troops was it?
Sorry, I'm just not buying what you are selling. What is your suggestion on how to deal with the situation? Your story, which is all hearsay from you fails to provide a conclusion to all these events. What was the result? Seems like someone thought the perpetrators were being sheltered. Gotta get intel somehow and sometimes I'm sure it's not the nice way. I'm sure most accounts of how we lost Vietnam aren't as simplistic as yours.
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If the Germans had less forces on the eastern front, they might've been better served on D-day.
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Maybe, but you need to be specific about how they'd be better used as I don't precisely see how they could have been without being damaged. Whilst I find it possible, I also find it very unlikely.
Mainly I don't share your opinion on the decisiveness of airpower in that campaign. I side with Rundstedt, a counterattack was the best option after the landing. Airpower hindered but didn't stop movement. The hypothetical additional forces would've been in addition to the units Hitler didn't release, and therefore maybe there would've been something available timely.
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Strategic bombing. Hmmm. Does not a war win.
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Alone no, but it did cripple the german army in the west and reduced the german war effort, which though it increased, would have been many times heavier without bombing, even heavier if it had been increased
I'm not following this one, maybe you missed a word or something. I'll guess though and say, strategic bombing if increased after a d-day defeat would've likely had prohibitive casualties during daylight. Recently I've seen information that the RAF night bombing was at least as effective. I don't agree it crippled the german army in the west either. Only the bearings factory bombings had a proven effect. Furthermore, it's a fact that German productivity increased throughout the bombing. Strategic bombing's effectiveness is controversial.
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Naturally, I think one scenario included the use of nukes in europe rather than over Japan. But I don't think it would spell the end of all hostilities against the Nazis and I highly doubt it would have lead to the americans withdrawing from the fighting there, perhaps concentrating on Japan till they were beat, but they certainly wouldn't have totally ignored Germany
A good possibility. Unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't immediately feasible to produce more bombs after the first two. I'm not sure about that, and the delay was only significant in terms of usage during the war. At any rate, not that many nukes to spread around immediately. Part of the effectiveness was the fear of more of them, the unknown. Firebombing I'm sure you know killed more, but nukes had a bigger terror factor. How scared would the Nazi's be? Probably wouldn't work unless they became more determined to rid themselves of Hitler. I'm not optimistic.
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Hmmmmmmm Interesting, but no more so than the following two:
Here's mine
http://www.ordmusfound.org/muscollection.htm
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OH happy day...oh happy day...the wicked, evil, detestable sons of the Saddam are dead...killed like the swine deserve....long live the coalition and the liberated Iraqi people. Much praise to our wise leaders Bush and Blair! The world continues to reap the benifits of their courage and wisdom!
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Oh dear, you sound more like GWB's own Comical Ali every post. I'm happy they got the swine, I'm not licking the posteriors of people who lied to us over the reasons and aren't exactly falling over themseleves to solve Iraq's problems.
He's got you there Dargon. I'd say we are trying to help though. I don't know about you, but it takes me a couple of tries rebuilding a country before I really get the hang of it. I think if we try a few more times in France we might get it right. You send in the Royal Marines to test their landing skills and I'll call up the U.S army corps of engineers.
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grave00
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posted July 24, 2003 05:31 AM |
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Some nicer pics of the proving grounds
http://www.dcell.com/trip2k/tanks/tanks.htm
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 24, 2003 05:52 AM |
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What is your suggestion on how to deal with the situation?
Not take revenge on an entire village for the isolated action of a few who may have used that village for a temporary base. Whilst doing what was suggested might temporarily this may solve some problems, you will instill a deep-rooted hatred amongst the population if all your responses involve heavy handed and violent reactions to everyone for the actions of some. By all means try to gather intelligence, in correct ways, but I think working to restore services and a normal life coupled with a controlled policy towards these attacks will gain more than a "might is right" attitude. Even if that's the intention, the wording of that officer was.... dubious and hardly very tactful to say the least.
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I'm sure most accounts of how we lost Vietnam aren't as simplistic as yours.
I never suggested it was the only cause, but the attitude was the forerunner of many other causes. Militarily Vietnam was winnable, but the actions such as Mai Lai, Agent Orange, the Visible affect of Tet, the losses incurred from geurilla war etc all combined to pressure the government of the time to withdraw from the war. Whilst doing little directly to militarily defeat you, the attitude of heavy handed superiority and violent means of gaining intelligence created a increasingly violent, anti (or usually not pro) US population, something garunteed to be problematic.
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Mainly I don't share your opinion on the decisiveness of airpower in that campaign.
Ok, lets check some facts. A US Army report done within years of the end of the war concluded that the German Army in the west had barely enough Fuel to fight/manouver for 2 weeks, not enough for a prolonged campaign. The reasons for this were basically that prolonged bombing of the oilfields around Romania, the processing plants, the supply depots and other matters had seriously reduced their stocks. This left them with 1 main solution, to use the rail system to transport the fuel. Right before the D-day campaign, the US/British bombing, combined with resistance movements crippled the system, forcing the germans to use Trucks to bring in fuel. All of this was a direct result of Air power and the support of resistance.
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Airpower hindered but didn't stop movement
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However, it did not reach the sector west of Caen allotted to it until the evening of 8 June. During the overland move, the division was subjected to constant heavy bombing attacks that caused severe losses. The commander of the division described his journey to the front as "a fighter bomber racecourse". The division lost five tanks, eighty-four armoured vehicles and 130 soft skinned vehicles before even seeing action.
Followed by:
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During "Operation Cobra" on July 25th the USAAF dropped 4,000 tons of bombs on the Panzer Lehr division and it was during this raid that American troops were bombed by there own planes. Among those killed was Leutnant-General Leslie McNair who was commander of the American ground forces. He was buried in great secrecy. During the American attack with no possibility of retreat the Panzer Lehr fought virtually to the last man among the shell holes and craters of their division. General Bayerlin described the landscape as "looking like the surface of the moon. After an hour I had no communication and all my forward tanks were knocked out. At least 70 percent of my troops are dead, wounded, crazed or numbed".
Divisions can and would be both hampered and ultimately shattered by air power. Add this to the fact that the larger proportion of German tanks were destroyed by actions other than tank engagements, be it air-power, artillery, lack of fuel or whatever and the general picture that emerges is that the german army at that stage were dangerously close to collapse for much of the campaign. Air power also shattered the German forces in Falaise when the time came, destroying for much time the german forces in the west.
I could dig up more information, but air power was vital to the campaign, something that the allies relied heavily on, be it fighter bombers or heavy bombing. I know from wargame experience that half the time you simply cannot prise german tanks out of well held positions without a trusty typhoon or three.
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Recently I've seen information that the RAF night bombing was at least as effective. I don't agree it crippled the german army in the west either
I largely dealt with it's ability to cripple the army, and specifically it's movements above. Whilst not damaging beyond repair the war effort, it's easy to see that without round the clock bombing the factories of germany would have produced many more materials than it did. The fact that the effort increased only shows that it would have been much higher without the bombing affects, be it immediate (such as destroying factories) or not so obvious such as the damage to the rail network.
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How scared would the Nazi's be? Probably wouldn't work unless they became more determined to rid themselves of Hitler. I'm not optimistic.
I'd say since both Goering and Himmler took what chances they could to remove Hitler it would be likely both or either would attempt to do so to arrange a negotiated peace in the wake of such a crisis, something that with d-day failed would be deemed more attractive than it was in the actual war. I don't know, I doubt they'd use them, but then again who knows who would have been in power in 1944-45 if D-day had failed?
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privatehudson
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posted July 24, 2003 05:57 AM |
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Oh I forgot, nice place this grounds, nothing bar the Annie I've not seen before really, but seems nice
What disturbs me is I don't need captions to work out what any of those tanks are.... must get life 
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murl_the_spoon
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posted July 24, 2003 07:08 AM |
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Wow. For one, it was not an attack, it was a continuation of Desert Storm, because Sudam broke the Ceasefire agreement. Clinton believed there were weapons, so did the United Nations, England, George Bush, and countless others. Quiet, you liberal fu-fus.
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"Thieves are people too, Diane. If you p r i c k a thieves finger, does he not leave a blood trail back to his lair?" -Mafia
Murl the Spoon
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privatehudson
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posted July 24, 2003 07:15 AM |
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All those weapons, no-one can find them though can they?
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murl_the_spoon
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 24, 2003 07:32 AM |
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Yeah, though we gave them MONTHS to hide them. Hmmmmmmmmm... I wonder where they went. They were confirmed to have been there, and now they are not. If Sudam had destroyed them, he would have said so and remained in power. Maybe he MOVED THEM?????
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"Thieves are people too, Diane. If you p r i c k a thieves finger, does he not leave a blood trail back to his lair?" -Mafia
Murl the Spoon
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privatehudson
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posted July 24, 2003 09:33 AM |
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If Sudam had destroyed them, he would have said so and remained in power.[.quote]
ROFL what makes you think GWB and Blair would have listened?
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murl_the_spoon
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 24, 2003 09:41 AM |
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The fact that the whole world would frown apon it, including the whole American country. Bush does not back down from his agreements, and gave Sudam every chance to escape. Why must you automatically assume that Bush and Blair would have attacked anyway? What in their history makes you tend to believe this?
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"Thieves are people too, Diane. If you p r i c k a thieves finger, does he not leave a blood trail back to his lair?" -Mafia
Murl the Spoon
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privatehudson
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posted July 24, 2003 02:24 PM |
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Take a look at the "evidence" the alliance used to "prove" the WMD's and it's not hard to see someone in the alliance was deliberately trying to invent proof in order to justify a war.
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soccerfeva
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted July 24, 2003 04:19 PM |
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The war is over already... QUIT Talking !!!
I'm just puzzled as to why you people are still talking about war..sure..it is not about attack Iraq anymore,it's about other aspects of war,history etc..but
USA has won.It's over.
Attack Iraq?
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 24, 2003 06:37 PM |
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If Sudam had destroyed them, he would have said so and remained in power.
if i recall correctly he did claim to have destroyed them. this did not stop the attack from the US.
Soccer:
If you dont like this thread then dont read it. its as simple as that. this thread has less to do about the war on Iraq then wars in general, if the name could be changed im sure it would to read "WAR" or something like that, I personnaly find this thread interesting, I may have different opinions then some others, as we all have different oppinions, i do believe this thread is a very usefull and intellegent thread.
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USA has won.It's over.
in my oppinion soccer, i feel the US has lost this war, they did not win the support of the world, they did not win the support of the Iraqian people, and they are now facing 3 new wars. this is not a victory it is a loss.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 24, 2003 07:17 PM |
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Beware the man who takes pleasure in death, even if the death is of an evil man.
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murl_the_spoon
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 24, 2003 07:25 PM |
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if i recall correctly he did claim to have destroyed them. this did not stop the attack from the US.
When? There is no proof in that statement. If there is , prove it and I rescend everything I have said.
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"Thieves are people too, Diane. If you p r i c k a thieves finger, does he not leave a blood trail back to his lair?" -Mafia
Murl the Spoon
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murl_the_spoon
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posted July 24, 2003 08:15 PM |
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But he later said that Iraq did not, and Sudam never said that or tried to prove it.
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"Thieves are people too, Diane. If you p r i c k a thieves finger, does he not leave a blood trail back to his lair?" -Mafia
Murl the Spoon
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grave00
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 24, 2003 08:37 PM |
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Not take revenge on an entire village for the isolated action of a few who may have used that village for a temporary base. Whilst doing what was suggested might temporarily this may solve some problems, you will instill a deep-rooted hatred amongst the population if all your responses involve heavy handed and violent reactions to everyone for the actions of some. By all means try to gather intelligence, in correct ways, but I think working to restore services and a normal life coupled with a controlled policy towards these attacks will gain more than a "might is right" attitude. Even if that's the intention, the wording of that officer was.... dubious and hardly very tactful to say the least.
I maintain that we are being even-handed in our actions and we are trying to restore service in as efficient a manner as possible. Do you deny that they limited the destruction in the 3 weeks of the war? Do you deny that sometimes in some instances it may be necessary to use tougher tactics? Do you think this is the norm?
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