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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 15, 2003 01:17 AM |
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Hmmm. Excellent points PH.. Methinks I momentarily misplaced my sense of objectivity on this subject....
On the other hand, there are a few things bothering me. What legal right do we have to take Saddam into custody when he was clearly within Iraqui jurisdiction at the time? What is our legal status there now? If we are not true "occupiers" then shouldn't we have taken custody of him only on behalf of the Iraqui government, in order to have turned him over to the sovereign?
Along the same lines, aren't the Iraquis going to take it like the coalition/Western World does not trust them with their own justice system, to be "civilized" even when dealing with its own worst enemy, if we just deny them the right to be in charge of the trial???
On the third hand, If Iraq has a hand in the trial, shouldn't other nations wronged by him also have a hand to be fair????
These are just some of the many ideas that are currently clouding my mind. Perhaps that is a symptom that you are right -- that a neutral should be in charge....
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 15, 2003 01:28 AM |
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Precisely, Neutral ensures some sense of an unbiased decision, trying them via any other form leaves the decision open to debate and criticism from others. As for jurisdiction, I guess the west could use the excuse of military jurisdiction, a kind of martial law idea. As Iraq has no *real* leader at the moment and as power has not been passed in any realistic form it is only right the allies take him into custody.
And no, unfortunately I don't trust Iraquis at this time to have a fair sense of judgement. Many of them will have lost relatives to this man, it is not sensible to have someone that may be so biased in control or heavily involved in the trial. Questions will always arise about the trial if such a thing occurs.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted December 15, 2003 10:44 AM |
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Saddam is gone!
Well, the capture of Saddam has brought me mixed feelings. The good thing is that Iraq has finally been liberated from a harsh and brutal dictator responsible for the mass murder of over a million innocent civilians and opposition rivals. Well, we all can breathe a little easier on the war against terrorism, at least there is no more Hussein (although there is still an Osama Bin Laden). That aftershave of Saddam after capture is genuine, I'm sure and I hope. So, the US has finally tracked down one of it's rivals. One point for George W. Bush, I guess.
Sure this is an American Victory, but I fear this: George W. Bush will almost most certainly be re-elected in 2004 in the US election. Ditto here. It's most likely our current PM John Howard will retain his position as PM due to the fact that many Australians support George W. Bush and that John Howard is Bush's most prominent ally (damn it! I'm going for Latham here). Well...done, Coalition. You have accomplished part of your mission.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted December 15, 2003 05:50 PM |
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I think that we are far from having this mission in Iraq accomplished. Proof being that the suicide bombings are still happening. The latest being today, or yesterday.
As much as we weould like to consider this a victory, do you really believe that Saddams regime hadn't nade plans to continue their plan of attack after their leader was captured.
I'm afraid until the radicals surrender or dissband, our troops and the innocent Iraqi's are in grave danger.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 15, 2003 06:53 PM |
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Nothing amazing truely was achieved... sadam captured? okay good for us now what about the other thousand people waiting to take his place?
Also there are people who want him dead and many people that will see him as a matyr.. Now the fight begins with what the hell u gonna do with him?
So lets totally generalize what they have accomplished in iraq.... somebody lit a powderkeg.. or maybe swinging at the ole beehive... etc... playing with fire?
I will say again what i have said at the beginning the only way for the problem to truly go away is for it LITERALLY to GO AWAY... kill em all no trials no fairness.. no victory but no problem either. (also completely devasting the physical land would also help alleviate the problem even more so)
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 15, 2003 07:16 PM |
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In-Humane person
Kill them all?
Oh my god listen to what you're saying. Please tell me you are simply confused or angry and you aren't thinking straight. I....can't believe he just said that.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 15, 2003 07:35 PM |
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Despite my name im not angry as far as my saneness is I couldn't tell you.
If you can think of a 100% sure way to get rid of the problem that iraq has caused and will continue to cause even if the leaders have been removed.. then im all ears.
It may not be a humane solution but it is 100% effective
....other than the enemies you make from doing such an inhumane thing. Then all you have to do is follow through to the very end so that every thinks the same way you do and all the "evil doers" are dead and buried...
the previous paragraph was meant to be humorous but after re-reading it .. it is also true :/
whoops i lied im kinda ticked off at people who look at bush with a blind eye but thats about it.
oh and people who think patriotism is a seasonal thing... friggen stupid american flag christmas lights i mean come on...
or the people who buy thost god bless america bumpers and them get all dirty and dsetroyed or the american flags that people hang on the car antenae and then its all tatterred... makes no sense to me.
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tigerangelz
Known Hero
Angelic Tigress
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posted December 15, 2003 07:50 PM |
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Of course we can't do what Mad Unicorn is suggesting, for we are a civil country. Even the maniac himself will get a fair trial.
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted December 15, 2003 08:21 PM |
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Quote:
Of course we can't do what Mad Unicorn is suggesting, for we are a civil country. Even the maniac himself will get a fair trial.
im volonteer to be called non-civil, vandal or barbar... saddam must be punished with most painful dead... he ordered the dead of thousands , he ruled iraq with tyrannie, he is one of the responsibles for middleeast chaos..
i expected he fired to soldiers and die with honour but he is caught in a rat hole with mars biscuits and kiwis lol...
in this community everyone has his own ideas, im not democrat , modern, civil type... respect my idea or not ... saddam must be hang in bagdat most populated place in public with iraq citizens cheers..
btw, i hope usa dont take active place in saddam trial because its iraq internal affairs, its too important event to be spend for usa elections propaganda
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2003 09:06 PM |
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"I will say again what i have said at the beginning the only way for the problem to truly go away is for it LITERALLY to GO AWAY... kill em all no trials no fairness.. no victory but no problem either. (also completely devasting the physical land would also help alleviate the problem even more so)"
And that is the solution to which problem exactly?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 15, 2003 09:08 PM |
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Hanging him in bagdhad in front of cheering crowds (ie baying mobs) is the tactics of a dictator, he should be punished fairly by people capable of judging his crimes, not some anger and hate filled biased court.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 15, 2003 09:37 PM |
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There are growing concerns throughout the Middle East about how this whole thing is being pressed. I am hearing the term "humiliation" being thrown around a lot. One Palestinian interviewee called this a "dark day." I started nashing my teeth at anybody who would suggest this guy deserves any respect. Then I started realizing that this was just a symptom of how utterly differently people might see this kind of thing.
I started wondering: are the perceptions of this event so divergent that even an international tribunal, while ideally the most objective and fairest method as PH and others have suggested, might not ultimately backfire in being seen as the whole situation being handled by the Infidel West?
Does anyone know how much involvement / representation of Middle Eastern countries there is in the international trubnal forum??? Too bad there could not be n international tribunal made up of representatives from governments of the region itself...
Just a few thoughts.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 15, 2003 10:46 PM |
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However he is tried, someone will find a way to say there is biased. It's almost a lose-lose situation. He did these things, everyone knows it. Seems like an open and shut case, but it will go on for years.
Iran wants to file formal charges against Saddam now.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 15, 2003 10:57 PM |
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Problem(s)?
Oil
"evil doers"
terroristic sanctuary
propoganda
bush having a better chance to be re-elected IF he "fixes" iraq
some of the problems i see but maybe my view is a little skewed dunno..
jeez i mean i dont read the newspaper all the time and everyday but i am certain there is 1 reason or another why america even bothered to go there...
i hate flood protect 
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 16, 2003 01:38 AM |
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You'll alwas get bias, it's about getting the least bias possible. Trying him in the middle of Iraq will not do this. The point is still that simply considering it an open and shut case, and therefore simply executing him means in the end you offer no more visible justice than those you have deposed.
Be very clear, I'd like him dealt with also, but I see this as something we have to do properly or not at all. Minimising the accusations is best, not simply doing whatever the two countries feel because they'll be blamed whatever happens.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted December 16, 2003 11:03 AM |
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dont hang saddam, feed him... maybe you can use him in dental or hair sectors for advertissements.
btw ph , in usa when someone will be execute, they call the victims family. they watch the criminal death in their seat, now on that case saddam is criminal for thousands deads, whats the difference ? numbers of cheering people?
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2003 12:04 PM |
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"btw ph , in usa when someone will be execute, they call the victims family. they watch the criminal death in their seat, now on that case saddam is criminal for thousands deads, whats the difference ? numbers of cheering people? "
First it`s not done everywher in US, and even if it were it
doesn`t mean it`s right.
I think they`ll let the guys in the tribunal have fun with him.That is if he doesn`t die under "suspicious circumstances" first.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 16, 2003 02:31 PM |
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Quote:
dont hang saddam, feed him... maybe you can use him in dental or hair sectors for advertissements.
btw ph , in usa when someone will be execute, they call the victims family. they watch the criminal death in their seat, now on that case saddam is criminal for thousands deads, whats the difference ? numbers of cheering people?
That person will have been tried fairly first.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 16, 2003 05:28 PM |
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So I guess everybody probably already knows this, but apparently the week before Saddam was captured the Iraqui government had already established a war crimes tribunal modeled after the existing ones and adopting their guidelines for the application of international law. Bush is now saying they intend to turn him and others over to the Iraqui government for trial in that forum.
The main criticism of this is that there are no experts in the Iraqui arena to approach some of the more complex aspects of preparing such a trial and that those experts can be found in the international arena.
In my book, because of the historical tensions between the Middle East and the West (particularly our proclivity to intervene in their business al the time), the worst criticism that could arise out of how this goes down is that the West is in charge of the trial. So while PH I think you are right about the objectivity concerns in an absolute sense, perhaps the Iraqui government pressing the case really is the best thing. I tend to agree with Wolfman that generally it is concensus that Saddam did all these things. Everyone seems to agree on the description of the Baathe party govenment being a pyramid, with Saddam at the top and in charge of everything, If that were not the case then trying him in Iraq might have had a more skewed effect.
On the other hand, as always in any legal case, the devil is in the details. It may turn out that Saddam's counsel ardently disputes his level of involvement and responsibility. I mean, I know as well as anyone that you never know what the evidence is really gonna be and which way the wind might actually start blowing until you're sitting there, hearing the case.
The only thing I wish they would consider doing is contracting out for some legal expertise among those previously referred to experts, which may help create an appearance of fairness without poisoning the Middle East's view of the trial as being handled by outsiders.
<EDIT> -- one more thing --
Anybody hear anything about who is going to represent Saddam, and where they might come from?
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 16, 2003 07:25 PM |
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A news article titled "Saddam's Family Wants International Trial" appeared from the AP? on the Comcast main page this morning (Dec 16, 5:02 AM).
The article indicates Hussein's family wants him tried by an international court, rather than the special tribunal set up by the "U.S.-installed Iraqi Governing Council," quoting daughter Raghad Hussein. She said her dad appeared "sedated" in the widely released footage this weekend, and asserted that he was drugged upon his capture. She said the family "would appoint an attorney to try to contact Saddam, whose whereabouts have not been released." Raghad is one of two daughters of Saddam, who reportedly ordered both their husbands killed in 1996.
The article relays that Governing Council Spokesman Ahmed Chalabi said that he believed Saddam's trial in Iraq would be fair. Entifadh Qanbar (I don't know who this is) further said "It will also send the right message to have a trial conducted in Iraq by Iraqis to heal the wounds of those victims or the families of the victims."
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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